List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.2

[Joffaboy]

Essendon trade 9 to Freo for their future first.

Essendon trade freos future first to Carlton for pick 12.

Carlton trade freos future first to Fremantle for pick 11.

Just read the rules and my first idea was in fact impossible, but this appears to be a loophole.

Carlton and Freo can get a 1 and 2 pick upgrade respectively. Essendon get Kako and a 1st round pick.

Getting more convoluted and remote with every iteration.

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[Armoooo]

Getting more convoluted and remote with every iteration.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Clubs go over the rules with a fine tooth comb, if there's an exploit to be found they will find it.

Based on the above convoluted hypothetical, we have essendon over the barrell unless they can talk two clubs into improving their draft hand.

I know it's not convenient for us, but there's an option for essendon.

 

[stavro#4]

Clubs go over the rules with a fine tooth comb, if there's an exploit to be found they will find it.

Based on the above convoluted hypothetical, we have essendon over the barrell unless they can talk two clubs into improving their draft hand.

I know it's not convenient for us, but there's an option for essendon.

You do realise no club has ever pulled off your proposal before right?

 

[Feerits Elf]

I know it's not convenient for us, but there's an option for essendon.

 

[Armoooo]

You do realise no club has ever pulled off your proposal before right?

the bidding system has been exploited on multiple occasions, and none of those methods had ever been pulled off before either, until they were.

What is the barrier?

Do you believe it's illegal? If so, what rule has it broken?

Do you think Carlton or Freo would turn down a free pick upgrade?

 

[my name was taken]

Clubs go over the rules with a fine tooth comb, if there's an exploit to be found they will find it.

Based on the above convoluted hypothetical, we have essendon over the barrell unless they can talk two clubs into improving their draft hand.

I know it's not convenient for us, but there's an option for essendon.

AFL also has veto powers and could smack down an obvious exploitation of a loophole in the middle of that trade sequence.

 

[Feerits Elf]

AFL also has veto powers and could smack down a trade that is consistent with the rules made by the AFL in the middle of that trade sequence.

Why?

 

[Armoooo]

Furthermore, has any club ever used the three of bidding on an academy/fs player with the pick before another club to buy them into trading that pick away? If not, I guess it must be impossible.

There's also the risk of attracting bad will from the other clubs if we don't end up making a bid for Kako with one of those three picks. You can argue that we wouldn't do it because we assured Essendon that we wouldn't bid in that trade negotiation to save them some points, but that could potentially open us up to an investigation of draft tampering for violating "the spirit and intention" of the draft.

 

[PandaG]

This Houston situation is exactly why the argument that 'Salary cap space is your compenstion' for losing a FA is nonsense.

I know he's not a free agent but North can offer the best deal to Port and can pay Houston the most but he's not seriously considering them while Carlton and Collingwood fight over him. The 'big club' power will always top salary cap space at a small club. And I know North being down the bottom doesn't help but part of the reason they have been down for so long is no decent player is picking money over the big club expereince.

The compensation pick is necessary to make sure the smaller clubs have something in the FA exchange instead of just picked off each year with no way to replace their players.

Spot on

 

[Armoooo]

AFL also has veto powers and could smack down an obvious exploitation of a loophole in the middle of that trade sequence.

The AFL usually tend to let the first use of a loophole slide and then tighten the rules afterwards, it would be completely unprecedented to punish clubs for following clearly specified guidelines.

They could have made the rule that a club cannot receive back their natural pick at any stage. Instead they've gone out of their way to specify that the pick cannot be traded back to its original owner "directly".

 

[Strahany]

You do realise no club has ever pulled off your proposal before right?

If we can trade for Bailey Rice’s draft rights then anything’s possible

 

[Armoooo]

I wasn't the one who said they could only trade with us, however I stand by what I said, convoluted and remote.

Sounding more and more like an Adam Cooney supertrade. Theoretically could be done but highly unlikely.
Just as our trade is also unlikely.

What is the time per draft pick? 4 minutes? From memory a pick swap takes 3 or so minutes once the paperwork lodged. So your deal is three swaps, 9 minutes, outside the 4 minutes as I don't think the matching club can ask for more time.

Of course they could do it prior to the draft, but I don't see where Essendon get the points from. Our proposed is F1 plus 27 for the points.
Anyway it is probably all moot.

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The time wouldn't be an issue.

St Kilda bid, while essendon are on the clock they lodge deal one.

Then Freo are on the clock, while deal two is lodged.

Then freo are on the clock again while deal three is lodged.

Agree it's all likely to be moot. But I'm just pointing out that Essendon have multiple options, we don't have them cornered like some think.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Couple of question that I would like to know, if anybody has sources it would be greatly appreciated.

1. If we make a bid on Kako with pick 8, are the bombers banned from trading their next pick? I didn't think this was the case but it seems some people are confident this is the case.
2. When matching a bid, are clubs forced to use their next available pick or can they package any picks they posses. If essendon were to snag a few 2nd rounders could they tell the AFL they will be matching with those and leave pick 9 in tact?

Behind the scenes: Sydney’s bold draft play and how GWS stared them down

There was more to the story when the Swans placed their shock AFL draft bid on Giants Academy midfielder Harry Rowston.

www.theage.com.au

This was the recent case.

 

[Diehard Saint]

The time wouldn't be an issue.

St Kilda bid, while essendon are on the clock they lodge deal one.

Then Freo are on the clock, while deal two is lodged.

Then freo are on the clock again while deal three is lodged.

Agree it's all likely to be moot. But I'm just pointing out that Essendon have multiple options, we don't have them cornered like some think.

Well maybe delete your posts so you don’t give them any ideas….

 

[Feerits Elf]

Well maybe delete your posts so you don’t give them any ideas….

He's a Bomber double agent!

Codename Garmoooo

 

[JediSaint]

For sure , but remind me why Gws would swap 15,16 for 9 ?
Seems way overs for 9

GWS want to improve the draft hand.

 

[ThomasR]

The time wouldn't be an issue.

St Kilda bid, while essendon are on the clock they lodge deal one.

Then Freo are on the clock, while deal two is lodged.

Then freo are on the clock again while deal three is lodged.

Agree it's all likely to be moot. But I'm just pointing out that Essendon have multiple options, we don't have them cornered like some think.

Just a hunch but I reckon the AFL would look very dimly on matching a bid with late picks and then using futures to trade back into the draft ahead of where those picks originally were. Not sure if there's any precedent for this. Would be handy if they published the list of rules surrounding live pick trading instead of producing hundreds of hours of Trade Radio dribble

 

[SaintsSeptember]

C/o Copilot:

Saints strike gold in the draft's swirling dance,
With Essendon's pick 9, they seize their chance.
Now holding picks 7, 8, and 9 in hand,
They map out a Premiership dreamland.

"Clowns," some critics jeer with glee,
Yet Saints fans roar with wild esprit.
Like a hippopotamus, strong and grand,
Their dynasty rises, proud to stand.

Simon Dalrymple, the draft maestro’s touch,
With Stephen Silvagni, they create much.
Ross Lyon’s wisdom, a guiding light,
Their Premiership dreams, shining bright.

A Hippopotomus?

 

[JediSaint]

Let's say North and Richmond take talks and there are 3 gun mids available, for all we know, one of them could be Essendons number 1 pick, this might be there only way to get him. I don't think it's likely by any means, but it is still a possibility. I don't think it's wise to leave the destiny of an asset as valuable as pick 8 in another clubs hands.

If we make a bid with pick 8, it is more likely that they trade pick 9 for a future first. But why does it necessarily need to be with us, there would probably be a heap of clubs putting up their future first on the table so I don't think we can expect massive overs.

None of the scenarios being spelt out seem to be the sure-fire win a lot of us seem to expect to be a certainty.

If it were me, the scenario I would be hoping for is that there are 3 players we want available at our pick. We pick our favourite with 7, then tell essendon we will trade pick 8 and our future second for pick 9 and their future first.

If we get to our picks and there are only 2 players we really like left, then we pick them.

I don't want to see a bid made for Kako unless he is the player we want at that pick.

The way I see why we are in prime position for pick 9.

If we trade F1st and later picks to Bombers for #9, that maximise their draft position next year by getting another shot at a FRP for next year.

Crows (4) Melb (5) GC/Tigers (6) won’t pick swap for #9 as it’s to far back and will be a bad deal for them.

They also won’t trade F1 as they are most likely going to finish outside of finals.
Eg: if crows finish in the same position (15) then their F1 = pick 4. So swapping pick 4 for pick 9 is a bad deal.
Make it highly unlikely any of the teams below us will take a punt on trading a F1st.

If Bombers offer GWS for #15 & #16 we can offer pick 8. = better deal for GWS

The only thing that can stuff this up is the Stringer deal. If he gets an end of second plus compo deal then they will have enough points and be able to keep #9 for themselves.

Is that about right?

 

[ThomasR]

GWS need capital next year.
Need to swap futures.
So 9 and F2 would prob work.

It's also the way they do business. Target a very specific set of players with particular attributes and trade up to ensure they get them. Last year Gothard was seen by most as a fair reach at 12, and then they did the magical 18 + F2 for 17 swap with us to make sure they got Leake. Doesn't sound too clever until you consider they were both in the top three on their board along with Sullivan.

They also traded 3+12+F2 for pick 1 to lock in Cadman the year before, even though many believe North would have taken Sheezel and Wardlaw at 1&2 anyway.

Ultimately they got the players they wanted and eliminated any risk of other teams swooping, even if some of those trades were unnecessary. A very different strategy to the teams who are always trying to "win" the draft.

It sounds like Travaglia is at the top of their shopping list this year following the departures of Cumming, Perryman and Haynes. We gave them a back scratch late last year (Carlton's F3 for #50), so the trading relationship seems good. If he's still on the board, 9 for 15+16 isn't entirely out of the question, given how they operate. 9 + F2 might be fairer from a DVI point of view but that's not what they're about.

 

[Sunshine Sainter]

No ****en shit some bloke has taken a part out of his life to comment this on hawthorn Facebook page lmao

Josh Battle, to the Hawks' great nest,

With Casey and kids, you’re joining the best!
Bobbi and Billie, your bright little stars,
Together we’ll cheer, let’s raise our bars!
From St. Kilda you’ve come, with skills that impress,
In brown and gold colors, we’ll surely be blessed.
As you take to the field, hear the fans roar,
Hawthorn’s your home; we couldn’t ask for more!
So here’s to new journeys, adventures ahead,
With family beside you, there’s nothing to dread.
Welcome aboard, let’s make this a blast,
In the heart of the Hawks, your future is cast!
I

Here is the reply to post to the hawk fan:

"Josh Battle, a Hawk, but was it the best?
In a nest full of hopes, you took a bold quest.
With Casey and kids, you thought it was right,
But whispers of doubt now shadow your light.

From St. Kilda you soared, with dreams in your stride,
Yet now in brown and gold, there's nowhere to hide.
Bobbi and Billie, your stars shining bright,
But the thrill of the Saints haunts you each night.

The cheers once so loud, now seem far away,
The field feels different, the joy starts to sway.
With every lost metre, the regret starts to creep,
Was this change worth it? The question runs deep.

Once a pillar of strength, now you’re feeling small,
In Hawthorn's embrace, you question it all.
So here's to the journey, with lessons to learn,
Sometimes the right path is the one you discern."

 

[Sunshine Sainter]

Essendon trade 9 to Freo for their future first.

Essendon trade freos future first to Carlton for pick 12.

Carlton trade freos future first to Fremantle for pick 11.

Just read the rules and my first idea was in fact impossible, but this appears to be a loophole.

Carlton and Freo can get a 1 and 2 pick upgrade respectively. Essendon get Kako and a 1st round pick.

But doesn't this give Essendon 2 first round draft picks over two years (including Kako), versus the scenario outlined a number of times here, where they get 3 first round draft picks over two years (including Kako)?

 

[JediSaint]

Was just hand and finger injuries so nothing serious and shouldn't re-occur

I've had him #1 all year, think he's still the best player in the open pool with the highest likelihood of being a star

Just how I see the draft play out.

Tigers - Jaggar Smith
Norf - Levi Ashcroft (f/s)
Norf - Armstrong
WC - Langford / Bo Allan
Crows - Draper
Melb - Lalor / Tauru / Langford / Reid
Tigers (GC - Rioli) - Tauru / Reid / Lalor
Saints - Kako / O’Sullivan
Saints - Tauru / Smille / Lalor
Saints - pick swap GWS #15 and #16


#15 Saints - Jack Ough
#16 Saints - Whitlock / Hotton / Trainer

 

[Significant]

The way I see why we are in prime position for pick 9.

If we trade F1st and later picks to Bombers for #9, that maximise their draft position next year by getting another shot at a FRP for next year.

Crows (4) Melb (5) GC/Tigers (6) won’t pick swap for #9 as it’s to far back and will be a bad deal for them.

They also won’t trade F1 as they are most likely going to finish outside of finals.
Eg: if crows finish in the same position (15) then their F1 = pick 4. So swapping pick 4 for pick 9 is a bad deal.
Make it highly unlikely any of the teams below us will take a punt on trading a F1st.

If Bombers offer GWS for #15 & #16 we can offer pick 8. = better deal for GWS

The only thing that can stuff this up is the Stringer deal. If he gets an end of second plus compo deal then they will have enough points and be able to keep #9 for themselves.

Is that about right?

Both Adelaide and Melbourne have shown an appetite to trade F1 (Dees especially) so it wouldn't surprise me if they scuttle our plans for Pick 9.

Both would rightfully expect to jump up the ladder next year also.

 

[austinnn]

Both Adelaide and Melbourne have shown an appetite to trade F1 (Dees especially) so it wouldn't surprise me if they scuttle our plans for Pick 9.

Both would rightfully expect to jump up the ladder next year also.

Expectations are one thing, but neither of those clubs is going anywhere while their coaches are still in place, and cultural and player specific issues exist.