No Oppo Supporters General AFL discussion and other club news

[Ned Ryerson]

No, best thing to do is to act better.

We used to call this having manners.

Despite the differing of takes - I think surely there is a broad consensus that given the thankful death of drivel like the Channel 9 Footy Show, maybe clubs can just have a piss up and not organise skits/revues. Honestly if my mates were like 'hey we are going to hang out, have some drinks....and put on some skits!' I would have some concerns*.

*If your mates are an improv troupe then play on I guess.

 

[Rushed_Behind]

No, best thing to do is to act better.

We used to call this having manners.

Best thing to do is to stop telling people how to behave.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Best thing to do is to stop telling people how to behave.

Oh yeah, right.

 

[Yardie]

Best thing to do is to stop telling people how to behave.

Society is structured in telling people how to behave........

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Best thing to do is to stop telling people how to behave.

Yeah - **** the rule of law. Anarchy for all!

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Yeah - **** the rule of law. Anarchy for all!

Probably from the very same generation who would be aghast at someone wearing a hat inside or at the dinner table.

 

[Rushed_Behind]

Here we go. We got the geniuses chiming in with anarchy and rule of law. What law was broken?

If you don’t like people behaving in an uncouth manner that’s a you problem. Walk the other way. Oh but no. I shouldn’t have to do that my feelings and rights are far more important.

 

[Rushed_Behind]

Probably from the very same generation who would be aghast at someone wearing a hat inside or at the dinner table.

Nah from the generation that knows men can’t get pregnant.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Nah from the generation that knows men can’t get pregnant.

What does this even mean?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Here we go. We got the geniuses chiming in with anarchy and rule of law. What law was broken?

If you don’t like people behaving in an uncouth manner that’s a you problem. Walk the other way. Oh but no. I shouldn’t have to do that my feelings and rights are far more important.

That you have a problem with society holding people to a standard of behaviour sounds more like a you problem.

"don't like it, walk the other way" is not how any civilised society carries itself forward.

 

[killerspud]

Context is everything I suppose.
Comedians are attempting to subvert expectations and craft humour/satire to make light about things in a clever way.
If a comedian got on stage and just pretended to abuse/sexually assault a sex doll they would be absolutely lambasted for it (as they should).
Comedians frequently complain about audiences not finding their cruxe/dark/edgy humour funny anymore and I think that's a result of the zeitgeist shifting.
The difference with football players doing it, even at a private function, is it normalises the acceptance of these things happening, and ultimately lacks the key subversive and contextual elements that makes it more acceptable when Comedians do it.
Society does not want rolemodels who think that its OK to denigrate and abuse others, the AFL is taking a strong stance in this situation which to me says they're responding to the shift in zeitgeist, and that there's an acknowledgement that in today's climate, excuses like "boys will be boys" and "they're just blowing off steam" aren't acceptable because of the real world social impacts that it can have.

The fact that there's potentially a six game ban in the works for this says something about the possible impact the action/skit could have had.

The fact is is that football is still largely inaccessible for large swathes of our society due to the normalised and accepted behaviours that go on at football clubs. The AFL taking a heavy stance here will empower local clubs to prevent anti-social behaviour as time goes on.

Awesome post.

 

[SJT76]

I really don’t think there is any debate that what is being described (I don’t know what actually happened) is unacceptable and should be called out, and there should be consequences.

What the consequences are is a valid topic of debate though. I agree that just because stuff was excused 10 years ago, doesn’t make a difference. However, there should be clear communication of expectations and consequences before they are implemented. I disagree with the AFL making an example of people as a starting point to change behaviour - it should follow education and communication. I don’t know what the AFL has done on this front to date, but I hope they have done it if they’re going to come down hard (6 games is pretty hard if true).

 

[BlueWaterHawk]

This conversation....

 

[Nugett]

Probably from the very same generation who would be aghast at someone wearing a hat inside or at the dinner table.

Would love to be around if you decided to wear a hat in an RSL club. Taking your hat off is seen as a sign of respect. It’s like taking your shoes off in some countries, to visit shrines or memorials.

 

[Mr Lizard]

hold onto your hats

 

[Simon Crawshay]

hold onto your hats

Again with the hats!

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Would love to be around if you decided to wear a hat in an RSL club. Taking your hat off is seen as a sign of respect. It’s like taking your shoes off in some countries, to visit shrines or memorials.

Exactly the point.

You take your hat off as a show of respect.

We’ve get people in here arguing that people don't deserve respect, that you are perfectly ok to act in a way that offends others, it’s there problem.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I really don’t think there is any debate that what is being described (I don’t know what actually happened) is unacceptable and should be called out, and there should be consequences.

What the consequences are is a valid topic of debate though. I agree that just because stuff was excused 10 years ago, doesn’t make a difference. However, there should be clear communication of expectations and consequences before they are implemented. I disagree with the AFL making an example of people as a starting point to change behaviour - it should follow education and communication. I don’t know what the AFL has done on this front to date, but I hope they have done it if they’re going to come down hard (6 games is pretty hard if true).

All players who enter the system are educated, and given lots of reminders about how their behavior is important.

 

[Blackhawk42]

The difference with football players doing it, even at a private function, is it normalises the acceptance of these things happening,

I find this to be a throwaway line that constantly gets used, but I don't believe it to actually be true.

These young men still know the difference between right and wrong.

I don't recall Tarryn Thomas or Elijah Taylor being caught up in similar Mad Monday shenanigans which caused them to commit gender based violence.

I'm a huge fan of True Crime podcasts and documentaries, but it doesn't mean I'm suddenly ready to commit my own murderous rampage because it feels 'normalised'.

 

[hawkinoz]

It does make them look good, needs extended version and Brodie Hipwell in it and few others like Sophie, Jas, Lucy, Charlotte etc

 

[Rushed_Behind]

That you have a problem with society holding people to a standard of behaviour sounds more like a you problem.

"don't like it, walk the other way" is not how any civilised society carries itself forward.

how about we allow individuals to determine the standard of behaviour they find appropriate rather than being told what they should find acceptable

 

[H00t]

Here we go. We got the geniuses chiming in with anarchy and rule of law. What law was broken?

If you don’t like people behaving in an uncouth manner that’s a you problem. Walk the other way. Oh but no. I shouldn’t have to do that my feelings and rights are far more important.

Then you post this then less than 60 seconds later. Some impressive backflipping.

Nah from the generation that knows men can’t get pregnant.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

I find this to be a throwaway line that constantly gets used, but I don't believe it to actually be true.

These young men still know the difference between right and wrong.

I don't recall Tarryn Thomas or Elijah Taylor being caught up in similar Mad Monday shenanigans which caused them to commit gender based violence.

I'm a huge fan of True Crime podcasts and documentaries, but it doesn't mean I'm suddenly ready to commit my own murderous rampage because it feels 'normalised'.

But this isn't how normalisation works unless you're a particulalry susceptible individual.

Nobody watches a single thing (e.g a movie showing domestic violence) and then turns around and starts committing the next day. This would be classical conditioning or operant conditioning.

Normalisation is a society wide thing.

At any given time in a society there's a bunch of people who are right on the edge of beginning a behaviour. Maybe that behavior is drug taking, maybe it's donating to charity, maybe is road rage. It is these people at the fringe that, after something becomes more normalised, cross the line into a new behaviour.
This is called observational learning, or social learning. It's the foundation of a society and social behaviours.

Then - the feedback they get after the first time will either reinforce or punish the behaviour. This is where we go back to operant conditioning. So if a guy is at the footy, his team just lost, an opposition supporter is cheering next to him and he screams abuse the guy (eg SHUT THE **** UP YOU campaigner) and nobody does anything, his behaviour has been reinforced. Maybe next time he becomes violent. If this happens in 20 different locations at the same game - you get a general shift towards violence at the footy. And then we're back to social learning as everyone who looks on and sees this starts to accept the crowd at the game is aggressive and violent and that's just the way it is".
So you can't say "oh I know how to control myself and not be influenced by TV therefore it's not part of the problem".

Conservatives discredit observational and social learning (and therefore cultural influences on behavior) because they promote individual agency above all. (just decide not to do the thing! I can do that, surely everyone else can!) Even though there is so much evidence for normalisation of behaviour and social/cultural influences on how people act.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

how about we allow individuals to determine the standard of behaviour they find appropriate rather than being told what they should find acceptable

You could just walk the other way?

 

[Off The Couch]