Player Watch #17: Daniel Rioli - Traded to GC, picks 6&23.

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Charlie Pannam said:
I think he would benefit from playing a bit more game time in the midfield.
Sometimes a couple of cheap stats further up the ground is all a small forward needs to get into form.
Still love that performance against the Giants in the 2017 Prelim he was electrifying that evening the most influential player on the ground.
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Agree completely. He's almost that genuine super star. But not really. One the edge of greatness :p
 

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Unbelievable discussion from where I sit. In Castagna and Rioli we have two superb assets who are combining for around 3 goals/goal assists per match, 6 tackles, about 24 disposals. They are fast, durable, tough, team first and in Rioli’s case, highly skilled. Bolton has joined them and is basically producing very similar numbers. So from those three small forwards we are now getting a combined averages 36+ disposals, 4.5+ goals or goals assists, 9+ tackles, and loads and loads of threat and pressure. Where one is a bit better at one aspect of the game, the next is better at another aspect. Bolton doesn’t crash packs where the other pair do. Bolton is younger and is perhaps more agile, the other pair could be faster in a straight line. You could go on, but this is a very high functioning area of a very high functioning team. These players are playing a really tough role really well.

Other teams may have a Sunny Walters or a Chucky Cameron but they are paying big for those guys and don’t have the package we have. The Blues are talking about bringing in Papley on big money. Our blokes are incredibly tough for opposition teams to match up on because you have three even threats, you have to put your best small defender to one of them. We play Brisbane or Freo, Grimes goes to Cameron or Walters and that is them f*cked for the night. Then you are down to small forwards with nowhere near the threat of our next two.

Why on earth would anyone want anything different? We probably pay this trio $900-$1m the lot if they play all year and well, go and find better for less anywhere else. That is really good value to solve your small forward problem almost completely with three players who can threaten you on the ground in the air offensively and defensively all roughly equally.

We all love watching the electric small forwards who kick loads of goals, but our team is just not set up that way and I wouldn’t swap our guys for anyone else, especially given the financial restraints teams have to operate within.

And don’t fall into the trap of judging small forwards on what appear to be quiet statistical matches in a game where no small forward from either team could get into the game. Some games just play out like that.
 
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amcre said:
That's all good but that was a very long time ago. Probably lucky not to be dropped more last year. Couldn't sniff it last Thursday.


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He has had many good games since then but the point i was trying to make is if not for Dan Rioli very good chance we would have lost that Prelim and not had the 17' Flag.

For me that alone is enough to make him a lifetime Richmond player
 
I still think we should have kept Butler. It puts more genuine pressure on Rioli and Castagna and he has a higher ceiling that both of them if he can bring it all together.
 
Meteoric Rise said:
Unbelievable discussion from where I sit. In Castagna and Rioli we have two superb assets who are combining for around 3 goals/goal assists per match, 6 tackles, about 24 disposals. They are fast, durable, tough, team first and in Rioli’s case, highly skilled. Bolton has joined them and is basically producing very similar numbers. So from those three small forwards we are now getting a combined averages 36+ disposals, 4.5+ goals or goals assists, 9+ tackles, and loads and loads of threat and pressure. Where one is a bit better at one aspect of the game, the next is better at another aspect. Bolton doesn’t crash packs where the other pair do. Bolton is younger and is perhaps more agile, the other pair could be faster in a straight line. You could go on, but this is a very high functioning area of a very high functioning team. These players are playing a really tough role really well.

Other teams may have a Sunny Walters or a Chucky Cameron but they are paying big for those guys and don’t have the package we have. The Blues are talking about bringing in Papley on big money. Our blokes are incredibly tough for opposition teams to match up on because you have three even threats, you have to put your best small defender to one of them. We play Brisbane or Freo, Grimes goes to Cameron or Walters and that is them f*cked for the night. Then you are down to small forwards with nowhere near the threat of our next two.

Why on earth would anyone want anything different? We probably pay this trio $900-$1m the lot if they play all year and well, go and find better for less anywhere else. That is really good value to solve your small forward problem almost completely with three players who can threaten you on the ground in the air offensively and defensively all roughly equally.

We all love watching the electric small forwards who kick loads of goals, but our team is just not set up that way and I wouldn’t swap our guys for anyone else, especially given the financial restraints teams have to operate within.

And don’t fall into the trap of judging small forwards on what appear to be quiet statistical matches in a game where no small forward from either team could get into the game. Some games just play out like that.
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I think most see his worth, but I still think he has another gear to go. Castagna did it last year, Bolton is already there, Rioli should be there but seems to have stalled a bit and we get occasional games, hence the frustration. Don't know what money has to do with it.
 
Tomnat Tigers said:
If that were the case his pressure would result in a lot more tackles than a career average of 3.2 tackles and one year (2017) inside the top 10 for tackles inside 50 which coincided with playing 25 games. Cotchin and Graham alone are two guys who I would much more worried about tackling me in the Richmond team let alone a number of players from other clubs.
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Can’t tackle someone who shits themselves and panic kicks it as soon as they realise you’re chasing them.
 

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Meteoric Rise said:
Unbelievable discussion from where I sit. In Castagna and Rioli we have two superb assets who are combining for around 3 goals/goal assists per match, 6 tackles, about 24 disposals. They are fast, durable, tough, team first and in Rioli’s case, highly skilled. Bolton has joined them and is basically producing very similar numbers. So from those three small forwards we are now getting a combined averages 36+ disposals, 4.5+ goals or goals assists, 9+ tackles, and loads and loads of threat and pressure. Where one is a bit better at one aspect of the game, the next is better at another aspect. Bolton doesn’t crash packs where the other pair do. Bolton is younger and is perhaps more agile, the other pair could be faster in a straight line. You could go on, but this is a very high functioning area of a very high functioning team. These players are playing a really tough role really well.

Other teams may have a Sunny Walters or a Chucky Cameron but they are paying big for those guys and don’t have the package we have. The Blues are talking about bringing in Papley on big money. Our blokes are incredibly tough for opposition teams to match up on because you have three even threats, you have to put your best small defender to one of them. We play Brisbane or Freo, Grimes goes to Cameron or Walters and that is them f*cked for the night. Then you are down to small forwards with nowhere near the threat of our next two.

Why on earth would anyone want anything different? We probably pay this trio $900-$1m the lot if they play all year and well, go and find better for less anywhere else. That is really good value to solve your small forward problem almost completely with three players who can threaten you on the ground in the air offensively and defensively all roughly equally.

We all love watching the electric small forwards who kick loads of goals, but our team is just not set up that way and I wouldn’t swap our guys for anyone else, especially given the financial restraints teams have to operate within.

And don’t fall into the trap of judging small forwards on what appear to be quiet statistical matches in a game where no small forward from either team could get into the game. Some games just play out like that.
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Well said. Of them all Dan has the highest ceiling. But he does his job very well. I just reckon he can step it up another gear. That'/d elevate him into genuine A grade capacity
 
Grrr said:
I think most see his worth, but I still think he has another gear to go. Castagna did it last year, Bolton is already there, Rioli should be there but seems to have stalled a bit and we get occasional games, hence the frustration. Don't know what money has to do with it.
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There are people on the thread comparing him to Betts and Cameron etc and finding Rioli short of the mark because he kicks less goals and has less possessions than they have done over their careers. A guy like Papley also has better numbers than Rioli in regard to these popular stats, goals + goal assists, tackles. Walters would as well. There would be others. So there are players out there who appear by these stats to be doing better than the obviously highly talented Rioli.

But in terms of salary impact the Swans are probably a good study. They will be forced now to pay Papley $600k+ and possibly appreciably more, or lose him. Knowing this, they go out and get Lewis Taylor and Sam Gray to bolster the area. Those guys are bargain basement types who were delisted by their clubs, they might cost $250k if that. And early days but they return less at the Swans in terms of these stats than our small forwards tend to. Perhaps this is because Swans aim to funnel the ball into Papley’s area more and the other pair are targetted less.

The money is crucial in any analysis imo. You have so much to spend on backline, forward line and mids and rucks. If you spend it in one area it costs you in another area somewhere along the line. We happen to spend loads on key forwards and we have about the best two in the business. So you add a $600k+ small forward and we are suddenly blowing our forward line budget. So if Rioli had hit the heights of a Cameron or Walters by now, we would be losing him or losing someone else somewhere on the field in order to keep him. Right now, it suits us that Rioli is operating at the level he is. Watching him in games, if he is not as good as some other players in the role, this does not appear to be because of lack of effort or lack of commitment. Maybe he doesn’t get the ball put into his area as often, he NEVER gets isolated deep with one opponent as some of those others do at times. Maybe he just isn’t as good at reading play as the top small forwards. But he is certainly providing value for money, and the club and selectors are clearly happy with him overall, otherwise the club doesn’t keep him and jettison Butler. I love the way our small forwards operate in terms of us trying to win games of footy. They just stick to the plan and while one guy might appear to have a great 1/4 or match in terms of goals etc, the others don’t panic and try to match him, they just stick to the plan and play their role and somewhere along the line they are all bobbing up with enough possessions, tackles, goals, goal assists, pack presence and pressure to keep our forward line functioning really well.

Another interesting thing about the really high end small forwards of recent years, Betts, Cameron, Robbie Gray, Walters and now Papley, they are not high draft picks. How many high pick small forwards have just amounted to nothing? Small forwards drafted first round from 2010 onwards are:

2010 Maybe you call Harley Bennell a small forward

2011 Chad Wingard, Liam Sumner, Toby Greene, Clay Smith

2012 Troy Menzel, Josh Simpson, Ben Kennedy

2013 Jack Billings, Darcy Lang

2014 Jarrod Pickett, Nakia Coackatoo, Jarrod Garlett

2015 Callum Ah Chee, Daniel Rioli, Jade Gresham

2016 Jordan Gallucci

2017 Jaiden Stephenson, Jack Higgins

2018 Izak Rankine, Connor Rozee, Tarryn Thomas

Of that list you would say about four have consistently achieved a level higher than Rioli so far, Wingard, Greene, Stephenson, Gresham. The 2018 guys we can probably leave out as it is too early but those three could be quickly ahead of Rioli as well. It still leaves Rioli at least in the middle of that list, if not a bit higher than average in terms of consistent performance over time. And at pick 15 he was a lower end first rounder. So in terms of value for draft pick and value for salary, we are doing well from Rioli. And to date, he has two massive things that not one of those other players above has, premierships.

So when you say you think Rioli has another gear to go, what do you base this on? To be fair, I feel we could see better from him yet because it must be remembered he did have that horrendous foot injury in the 2017 GF and then last year got battered very badly early season, and both were caused by inspirational passages of play where he really put his body on the line for the team. But right now, what Rioli is doing suits me fine, and obviously suits the club fine.
 
Meteoric Rise said:
There are people on the thread comparing him to Betts and Cameron etc and finding Rioli short of the mark because he kicks less goals and has less possessions than they have done over their careers. A guy like Papley also has better numbers than Rioli in regard to these popular stats, goals + goal assists, tackles. Walters would as well. There would be others. So there are players out there who appear by these stats to be doing better than the obviously highly talented Rioli.

But in terms of salary impact the Swans are probably a good study. They will be forced now to pay Papley $600k+ and possibly appreciably more, or lose him. Knowing this, they go out and get Lewis Taylor and Sam Gray to bolster the area. Those guys are bargain basement types who were delisted by their clubs, they might cost $250k if that. And early days but they return less at the Swans in terms of these stats than our small forwards tend to. Perhaps this is because Swans aim to funnel the ball into Papley’s area more and the other pair are targetted less.

The money is crucial in any analysis imo. You have so much to spend on backline, forward line and mids and rucks. If you spend it in one area it costs you in another area somewhere along the line. We happen to spend loads on key forwards and we have about the best two in the business. So you add a $600k+ small forward and we are suddenly blowing our forward line budget. So if Rioli had hit the heights of a Cameron or Walters by now, we would be losing him or losing someone else somewhere on the field in order to keep him. Right now, it suits us that Rioli is operating at the level he is. Watching him in games, if he is not as good as some other players in the role, this does not appear to be because of lack of effort or lack of commitment. Maybe he doesn’t get the ball put into his area as often, he NEVER gets isolated deep with one opponent as some of those others do at times. Maybe he just isn’t as good at reading play as the top small forwards. But he is certainly providing value for money, and the club and selectors are clearly happy with him overall, otherwise the club doesn’t keep him and jettison Butler. I love the way our small forwards operate in terms of us trying to win games of footy. They just stick to the plan and while one guy might appear to have a great 1/4 or match in terms of goals etc, the others don’t panic and try to match him, they just stick to the plan and play their role and somewhere along the line they are all bobbing up with enough possessions, tackles, goals, goal assists, pack presence and pressure to keep our forward line functioning really well.

Another interesting thing about the really high end small forwards of recent years, Betts, Cameron, Robbie Gray, Walters and now Papley, they are not high draft picks. How many high pick small forwards have just amounted to nothing? Small forwards drafted first round from 2010 onwards are:

2010 Maybe you call Harley Bennell a small forward

2011 Chad Wingard, Liam Sumner, Toby Greene, Clay Smith

2012 Troy Menzel, Josh Simpson, Ben Kennedy

2013 Jack Billings, Darcy Lang

2014 Jarrod Pickett, Nakia Coackatoo, Jarrod Garlett

2015 Callum Ah Chee, Daniel Rioli, Jade Gresham

2016 Jordan Gallucci

2017 Jaiden Stephenson, Jack Higgins

2018 Izak Rankine, Connor Rozee, Tarryn Thomas

Of that list you would say about four have consistently achieved a level higher than Rioli so far, Wingard, Greene, Stephenson, Gresham. The 2018 guys we can probably leave out as it is too early but those three could be quickly ahead of Rioli as well. It still leaves Rioli at least in the middle of that list, if not a bit higher than average in terms of consistent performance over time. And at pick 15 he was a lower end first rounder. So in terms of value for draft pick and value for salary, we are doing well from Rioli. And to date, he has two massive things that not one of those other players above has, premierships.

So when you say you think Rioli has another gear to go, what do you base this on? To be fair, I feel we could see better from him yet because it must be remembered he did have that horrendous foot injury in the 2017 GF and then last year got battered very badly early season, and both were caused by inspirational passages of play where he really put his body on the line for the team. But right now, what Rioli is doing suits me fine, and obviously suits the club fine.
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When I questioned the money I mean't that we would never go out and buy a small forward, as we have a bucket load of them, and collectively they are possibly the best group in the league. As you say they are no Betts and Cameron, but the work they do would probably make them the best group in the league.

I agree that Rioli's injury was pretty bad, and he did put his body on the line a few times early last season that may have cost him a bit of loss in confidence and maybe he carried an injury from it, but I still think he has a gear that we haven't seen often, one that will come out on a weekly basis. Hi cousin Cyril was the king of pressure, but he torched sides every second week.
 
Meteoric Rise said:
There are people on the thread comparing him to Betts and Cameron etc and finding Rioli short of the mark because he kicks less goals and has less possessions than they have done over their careers. A guy like Papley also has better numbers than Rioli in regard to these popular stats, goals + goal assists, tackles. Walters would as well. There would be others. So there are players out there who appear by these stats to be doing better than the obviously highly talented Rioli.

But in terms of salary impact the Swans are probably a good study. They will be forced now to pay Papley $600k+ and possibly appreciably more, or lose him. Knowing this, they go out and get Lewis Taylor and Sam Gray to bolster the area. Those guys are bargain basement types who were delisted by their clubs, they might cost $250k if that. And early days but they return less at the Swans in terms of these stats than our small forwards tend to. Perhaps this is because Swans aim to funnel the ball into Papley’s area more and the other pair are targetted less.

The money is crucial in any analysis imo. You have so much to spend on backline, forward line and mids and rucks. If you spend it in one area it costs you in another area somewhere along the line. We happen to spend loads on key forwards and we have about the best two in the business. So you add a $600k+ small forward and we are suddenly blowing our forward line budget. So if Rioli had hit the heights of a Cameron or Walters by now, we would be losing him or losing someone else somewhere on the field in order to keep him. Right now, it suits us that Rioli is operating at the level he is. Watching him in games, if he is not as good as some other players in the role, this does not appear to be because of lack of effort or lack of commitment. Maybe he doesn’t get the ball put into his area as often, he NEVER gets isolated deep with one opponent as some of those others do at times. Maybe he just isn’t as good at reading play as the top small forwards. But he is certainly providing value for money, and the club and selectors are clearly happy with him overall, otherwise the club doesn’t keep him and jettison Butler. I love the way our small forwards operate in terms of us trying to win games of footy. They just stick to the plan and while one guy might appear to have a great 1/4 or match in terms of goals etc, the others don’t panic and try to match him, they just stick to the plan and play their role and somewhere along the line they are all bobbing up with enough possessions, tackles, goals, goal assists, pack presence and pressure to keep our forward line functioning really well.

Another interesting thing about the really high end small forwards of recent years, Betts, Cameron, Robbie Gray, Walters and now Papley, they are not high draft picks. How many high pick small forwards have just amounted to nothing? Small forwards drafted first round from 2010 onwards are:

2010 Maybe you call Harley Bennell a small forward

2011 Chad Wingard, Liam Sumner, Toby Greene, Clay Smith

2012 Troy Menzel, Josh Simpson, Ben Kennedy

2013 Jack Billings, Darcy Lang

2014 Jarrod Pickett, Nakia Coackatoo, Jarrod Garlett

2015 Callum Ah Chee, Daniel Rioli, Jade Gresham

2016 Jordan Gallucci

2017 Jaiden Stephenson, Jack Higgins

2018 Izak Rankine, Connor Rozee, Tarryn Thomas

Of that list you would say about four have consistently achieved a level higher than Rioli so far, Wingard, Greene, Stephenson, Gresham. The 2018 guys we can probably leave out as it is too early but those three could be quickly ahead of Rioli as well. It still leaves Rioli at least in the middle of that list, if not a bit higher than average in terms of consistent performance over time. And at pick 15 he was a lower end first rounder. So in terms of value for draft pick and value for salary, we are doing well from Rioli. And to date, he has two massive things that not one of those other players above has, premierships.

So when you say you think Rioli has another gear to go, what do you base this on? To be fair, I feel we could see better from him yet because it must be remembered he did have that horrendous foot injury in the 2017 GF and then last year got battered very badly early season, and both were caused by inspirational passages of play where he really put his body on the line for the team. But right now, what Rioli is doing suits me fine, and obviously suits the club fine.
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how much money is daniel going to ask for next contract ?
 
Grrr said:
When I questioned the money I mean't that we would never go out and buy a small forward, as we have a bucket load of them, and collectively they are possibly the best group in the league. As you say they are no Betts and Cameron, but the work they do would probably make them the best group in the league.

I agree that Rioli's injury was pretty bad, and he did put his body on the line a few times early last season that may have cost him a bit of loss in confidence and maybe he carried an injury from it, but I still think he has a gear that we haven't seen often, one that will come out on a weekly basis. Hi cousin Cyril was the king of pressure, but he torched sides every second week.
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If your going to hurt yourself a grand final winning ninja goal is a pretty good way to do I
 
THE_GUN said:
Might be time for some people to re watch the 2017 prelim against GWS

Important games where Richmond need majic


Daniel Rioli delivers
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To be fair, this is really the only game people bring up, his reputation has been living off of that one game since then.
 
THE_GUN said:
He has had many good games since then but the point i was trying to make is if not for Dan Rioli very good chance we would have lost that Prelim and not had the 17' Flag.

For me that alone is enough to make him a lifetime Richmond player
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;)
In much the same way people said we wouldn't have won the '17 grand final without Prestia.
And those who said we wouldn't have won the '17 grand final without Caddy.
And those who said we wouldn't have won the '17 grand final without Nankervis.
And those who contended we wouldn't have won the '17 grand final without Broad.
Followed by those who posted we wouldn't have won the '17 grand final without Townsend
And those who believed we wouldn't have won the '17 grand final without Castagna.
And some maintain And those who said we wouldn't have won the '17 grand final without BEllis ... and Graham.
You get the picture ;)
 
Marcel Proust said:
Bolton has more potential
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Bolton is already more impactful week to week, at only 20 years old and only 30 games, if given the choice to keep any of Rioli, Castagna or Bolton I'd pick Bolton in a heartbeat.
 
juss said:
Bolton is already more impactful week to week, at only 20 years old and only 30 games, if given the choice to keep any of Rioli, Castagna or Bolton I'd pick Bolton in a heartbeat.
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Bolton is 21, has not suffered a serious injury, is doing no better statistically than Rioli at the same age, and whilst he is maybe more efficient than Rioli(and Castagna) in some ways, he does not go where angels fear to tread as the other pair do. And that is a difference that should not be overlooked as it matters.
 

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Player Watch #17: Daniel Rioli - Traded to GC, picks 6&23.

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