20 Disposals and a goal

[Fadge]

But if you want to offer zero and then say anyone offering any factual comparison is not adding value to the discussion, then as far as I am concerned you can * off.

Now now, no need to get nasty just because people are pointing out flaws in your contentions.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Not true at all

An average of 25 & 0.5 followed by 15 & 1.5 comes out at 20 & 1

Well now show us the players who have averaged 20 + 1 per game over their career without ever achieving 20+1 in an individual season...

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Now now, no need to get nasty just because people are pointing out flaws in your contentions.

The thing is if you asked me nicely I would point out all the flaws willingly myself. In fact i have done precisely that in several posts.

Add something of substance to the debate yourself or go forth.

 

[Ricmel]

Maybe but considering they only play about 25% more midfield time than Dusty and Dusty kicks about double the goals, they wouldn’t be as good if they did the same mid/fwd time split.

Dusty's goal average per game is exactly 0.25 more than Judd, 1.13 vs 0.89 and Judd never goes and lobs in a forward pocket. Hate to see the numbers if he had. Might have kicked 80 in a season.

 

[STPer18]

Who could have possibly predicted this thread would turn into a Martin flogfest, led by the usual Martin fanbois?

A shame because it started out as a fairly fun almanac for what is a rather meaningless baseline of stats. It's only made weirder for the few Dustie GOAT'ers to make this fred another battleground when Boomer Harvey is a more accomplised 20&1er anyway.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Ok, so you compare him against pure midfielders now?? Ok then.

So amongst midfielders in the entire competition he was #1 for goals and #1 for score involvements. How can the midfielder who kicked more goals and had more SI’s than any other midfielder in the entire competition not be rated elite?

What you’re doing is the equivalent of saying Botham wasn’t really elite … only averaged 33
with the bat and there’s hundreds of batsman who averaged more. And he only averaged 28 with the ball … there’s hundreds of bowlers who averaged less.

Then I say … if you’re comparing him to other bowlers that’s fine…extraordinary he could average 33 with the bat and make 14 test hundreds. Then you say … yeah, but compared against other batsman he wasn’t that elite. So I say … yeah, but if you compare him against other batsman, he also took 383 test wickets.

So against other midfielders for the season Martin kicked more goals and had more SI’s. Against other forwards Martin had more disposals, clearances, coaches votes, CP’s, Inside-50’s etc….

You rate Martin against both the pure midfielders AND the pure forwards at the SAME time, which is of course an impossible criteria. You expect him to compare favourably against BOTH at the same time despite playing let’s say 40% of the season give or take as a midfielder and 60% of the season as a forward.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

And this just goes to show how good a game like Martin's 2017 Grand Final actually was. He got the most contested possessions of any player in the game, almost 30% higher than the second most and 70% higher than the 3rd most. And he combined that with the most goals + assists of any player in the game, 33% higher than the next most.

It would be like an all-rounder being the best bowler and the best batsman in a test match. In "Botham's series" in 1981 which will be talked about forever he never got the most wickets and most runs in any of the matches, though he went very close in the famous Headingly match.

Martin out-played all midfielders and all forwards in both areas of the ground, not both combined, both separately, and these ****ing clowns try to argue he wasn't even BOG. Then of course Dusty repeated the dose in the 2020 decider, equal most contested possessions and 66% higher goals + assists than any other player in the arena.

If the champion igloo-building eskimo of all time also ran the 30th fastest mile of all time these far-quits would be saying there is nothing elite about that, 29 people have run a faster mile.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Dusty's goal average per game is exactly 0.25 more than Judd, 1.13 vs 0.89 and Judd never goes and lobs in a forward pocket. Hate to see the numbers if he had. Might have kicked 80 in a season.

Not much different to saying if Martin spent all his time in the midfield and behind the ball he might have averaged over 31 career disposals. The main difference is in Martin's case there is actual evidence for this, because the one and only season he did play that role, in 2016, he averaged 31 disposals.

There is absolutely no precedent in modern footy to a gun midfielder "going to lob in a forward pocket" and kicking 80 goals in a season. To show how silly this is, Lance Franklin, the best forward this century comfortably, playing 100% in goal kicking positions, scored 80+ goals just 3 times in his career and 2 of those were just 81 and 82. His goal average would amount to 66 goals in a 22 match season. Judd aint beating that.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Not true at all

An average of 25 & 0.5 followed by 15 & 1.5 comes out at 20 & 1

Ok, who has done it over their career then? I’ll wait

 

[Cleansweep17]

Dusty's goal average per game is exactly 0.25 more than Judd, 1.13 vs 0.89 and Judd never goes and lobs in a forward pocket. Hate to see the numbers if he had. Might have kicked 80 in a season.

Ok so equal with Judd (one of the best players of the 21st century) even though he was in a higher scoring era.

The other two not so much.

 

[Ricmel]

Not much different to saying if Martin spent all his time in the midfield and behind the ball he might have averaged over 31 career disposals. The main difference is in Martin's case there is actual evidence for this, because the one and only season he did play that role, in 2016, he averaged 31 disposals.

There is absolutely no precedent in modern footy to a gun midfielder "going to lob in a forward pocket" and kicking 80 goals in a season.

You are too literal. And out of context.

My post was in response to a post saying Dusty kicked twice as many goals as some others. He didn’t.

I’m not arguing that Dusty wouldn’t get more possessions if he played in another position. He probably would. Just like Judd would probably have kicked more goals if he spent time in a forward pocket. He doesn’t have to kick 80. He needs to kick an extra 6 per year to match Dusty’s goal average.

I reckon he could do that. Me saying that does NOT mean that I don’t think Dusty could get possession average up if he played as pure mid.

That is what is known as a non sequitor.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

You are too literal. And out of context.

My post was in response to a post saying Dusty kicked twice as many goals as some others. He didn’t.

I’m not arguing that Dusty wouldn’t get more possessions if he played in another position. He probably would. Just like Judd would probably have kicked more goals if he spent time in a forward pocket. He doesn’t have to kick 80. He needs to kick an extra 6 per year to match Dusty’s goal average.

I reckon he could do that. Me saying that does NOT mean that I don’t think Dusty could get possession average up if he played as pure mid.

That is what is known as a non sequitor.

Judd goes forward his disposal average reduces from 22.87 per match average.

Dusty doesn't have an outrageously high goal average, just a genuinely great combination of goal and disposal averages. But most of these key elite goal kicking midfielders do:

Judd 22.87 & 0.82
Martin 24.55 & 1.13
Dangerfield 23.63 & 1.02
Ablett 24.92 & 1.25
Bontempelli 23.71 & 0.93
Petracca 23.92 & 0.97

T Greene 20.81 & 1.54

What I thought you were saying is Judd can go and lob in a forward pocket like Dusty and kick way more goals. All these guys including Judd are deployed forward at times. Martin's disposal numbers surely show he is not deployed forward any more than the others, or if he is, then he is much better at getting the ball when he is in the midfield.

None of them achieve these types of amounts of goals or disposals "just because they play a certain mixture of positions." These are the cream players at these type of roles and this is the sort of combination of goals and disposals they achieve. For any of them if they played more midfield and less forward their goals go down, their disposals go up. And if they played more forward and less midfield then their disposals would go down and their goals would go up.

If they just played forward all the time, then I guess the best of them are something like Toby Greene. In his first 4 years he played mainly midfield and averaged a bit under 25 disposals, but about 0.45 goals. GWS made the move you are suggesting would see the likes of Judd get cricket score numbers of goals. Greene dropped to about average 17 disposals and 2 goals per game in most seasons. Specifically, around 2.4 goal average per game in the 6 seasons where he averaged under 20 disposals per game.

So I might be taking you too literally when you flippantly said Judd would kick 80 if deployed in a similar role. But if Toby Greene is scoring at best around 60 goals deployed forward with GWS playing through him at just about every opportunity, that gives us some guidance as to where the cap is for most of these type of players.

*Greene's 66 goals season in 2023 was his first and only season above 45 goals.

 

[Noidnadroj]

I, and most others, didn't rate the first 2/3 of his season as elite and thought his last 1/3 wasn't good enough to make up the difference. You're acting like another consensus view is a shocking finding.

If that strong tail end of the season contained no dead rubbers (these were arguably his two best matches for the season) and Martin pulled Richmond to finals it could've been weighted a little higher. I weighted things most heavily when Richmond's season was well and truly alive rather than when it was toast.

The 15 forwards or midfielders selected were all better for longer. The strong finish got him into the squad of 44. Neutrals were fairly split on whether that was deserved or not.

None of these are revelations. And it shows that 20/1 isn't some magical elite barrier. I'll take Butters 27 and 0.5 (along with the many, many other criteria in which to appraise a players output), and it seemed the coaches did too.

Meow + Fadge = consensus.



And I can’t recall a single debate as to whether Martin deserved a spot in the AA squad… you got a link to that debate? What ‘you’ might think is not a consensus view.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Noidnadroj]

We are on a thread discussing mid-forward disposals and scoreboard impact, so it is not like I selected some irrelevant criteria to suit one player over another.

Murphy played well in his finals, it is as simple as that. If you want to do a deeper comparison of the Elimination and Semi-Finals the others played versus Murphy, or you want to make adjustments for the amount of goals scored overall in the games or whatever, I will only applaud this Fadge. Then we can all get a bit closer to the truth.

But if you want to offer zero and then say anyone offering any factual comparison is not adding value to the discussion, then as far as I am concerned you can * off.

Pendlebury was the least damaging midfielder in regards to scoreboard threat in his 21 finals from 2011-2023 than basically any other midfielder. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t good in other areas.

Brad Sewell played 16 finals and didn’t kick a goal and was more threatening on creating goals than Pendles.

But Pendles was very very busy in finals for 12-years.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Cleansweep17]

Judd goes forward his disposal average reduces from 22.87 per match average.

Dusty doesn't have an outrageously high goal average, just a genuinely great combination of goal and disposal averages. But most of these key elite goal kicking midfielders do:

Judd 22.87 & 0.82
Martin 24.55 & 1.13
Dangerfield 23.63 & 1.02
Ablett 24.92 & 1.25
Bontempelli 23.71 & 0.93
Petracca 23.92 & 0.97

T Greene 20.81 & 1.54

What I thought you were saying is Judd can go and lob in a forward pocket like Dusty and kick way more goals. All these guys including Judd are deployed forward at times. Martin's disposal numbers surely show he is not deployed forward any more than the others, or if he is, then he is much better at getting the ball when he is in the midfield.

None of them achieve these types of amounts of goals or disposals "just because they play a certain mixture of positions." These are the cream players at these type of roles and this is the sort of combination of goals and disposals they achieve. For any of them if they played more midfield and less forward their goals go down, their disposals go up. And if they played more forward and less midfield then their disposals would go down and their goals would go up.

If they just played forward all the time, then I guess the best of them are something like Toby Greene. In his first 4 years he played mainly midfield and averaged a bit under 25 disposals, but about 0.45 goals. GWS made the move you are suggesting would see the likes of Judd get cricket score numbers of goals. Greene dropped to about average 17 disposals and 2 goals per game in most seasons. Specifically, around 2.4 goal average per game in the 6 seasons where he averaged under 20 disposals per game.

So I might be taking you too literally when you flippantly said Judd would kick 80 if deployed in a similar role. But if Toby Greene is scoring at best around 60 goals deployed forward with GWS playing through him at just about every opportunity, that gives us some guidance as to where the cap is for most of these type of players.

*Greene's 66 goals season in 2023 was his first and only season above 45 goals.

Lol, can’t believe I missed Dusty gets more disposals and goals than Judd anyway. Nice pick up

 

[RUNVS]

Meow + Fadge = consensus.



And I can’t recall a single debate as to whether Martin deserved a spot in the AA squad… you got a link to that debate? What ‘you’ might think is not a consensus view.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

It is only Richmond fans determined to create threads "proving" Martin is the bestest, most amazing, best looking player ever who also uses chopsticks really well too.

You don't see Geelong fans doing the same thing with Selwood or Dangerfield and I think the reason for that is Geelong fans feel secure in the AFL communities assessment of them, while Richmond fans feel a deep insecurity that non-Richmond fans do not rate their players or team as highly as they (Richmond fans) think we should.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Dusty's goal average per game is exactly 0.25 more than Judd, 1.13 vs 0.89 and Judd never goes and lobs in a forward pocket. Hate to see the numbers if he had. Might have kicked 80 in a season.

Nah… Judd was 0.82 and Martin 1.13 .. so 0.31 more. 27% more goals which is significant. And despite extra time forward Martin also averages 24.6 disposals to 22.9.

But stats aren’t everything and Judd was a superstar, just wanted to make sure your numbers were accurate.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Cleansweep17]

It is only Richmond fans determined to create threads "proving" Martin is the bestest, most amazing, best looking player ever who also uses chopsticks really well too.

You don't see Geelong fans doing the same thing with Selwood or Dangerfield and I think the reason for that is Geelong fans feel secure in the AFL communities assessment of them, while Richmond fans feel a deep insecurity that non-Richmond fans do not rate their players or team as highly as they (Richmond fans) think we should.

Um obviously not with Selwood or Danger. They aren’t their clubs best players. But I here the abletts quite a bit.

The nature of this thread brings Dusty into the conversation as he is close to the record and will probably break it.

 

[Orange crush]

Um obviously not with Selwood or Danger. They aren’t their clubs best players. But I here the abletts quite a bit.

The nature of this thread brings Dusty into the conversation as he is close to the record and will probably break it.

But it's just a made up number .... 20 and 2 is far more valid. Who holds that record and who can break it?

 

[Fadge]

The nature of this thread brings Dusty into the conversation as he is close to the record and will probably break it.

'Close to the record of an arbitrary, meaningless combination of statistics...'

 

[Noidnadroj]

It is only Richmond fans determined to create threads "proving" Martin is the bestest, most amazing, best looking player ever who also uses chopsticks really well too.

You don't see Geelong fans doing the same thing with Selwood or Dangerfield and I think the reason for that is Geelong fans feel secure in the AFL communities assessment of them, while Richmond fans feel a deep insecurity that non-Richmond fans do not rate their players or team as highly as they (Richmond fans) think we should.

Oh my … Richmond fans post feverishly in threads involving Richmond or Richmond players = unhinged. Geelong and Pie fans post feverishly in threads involving Richmond players = totally understandable.

So where’s the link to those discussions debating if Martin was a worthy AA squad member? Or did you actually make that up?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Fadge]

But it's just a made up number .... 20 and 2 is far more valid. Who holds that record and who can reak it?

What is the record for different combinations of metres gained, score involvements and tackles?

 

[Orange crush]

What is the record for different combinations of metres gained, score involvements and tackles?

CP, I50, weeks suspended

 

[Fadge]

So where’s the link to those discussions debating if Martin was a worthy AA squad member? Or did you actually make that up?

Check out the AA thread on this very forum.

It was only the Richmond fanbois pumping up Martin's AA squad prospects on the back of Daniel Hoyne push for him.

He was nowhere near it in the eyes of most neutrals, and his big finish in a couple of meaningless games got him over the line into the squad.

 

[Cleansweep17]

But it's just a made up number .... 20 and 2 is far more valid. Who holds that record and who can break it?

Career average wise only Lethal I believe. But I guess it means nothing according to these guys. It’s just a made up number even though an arguable GOAT is the only person who has achieved it

 

[Cleansweep17]

CP, I50, weeks suspended

Toby Greene then?