20 Disposals and a goal

[Fadge]

8 elite seasons based on AA squad selections matches up with his career Brownlow vote totals. 8th all time.

What you talkin' bout, Willis?

 

[Mr Meow]

8 elite seasons based on AA squad selections matches up with his career Brownlow vote totals. 8th all time. So yeah it can’t be just 5 elite seasons to get 200+ Brownlow votes.

I just think nobody took notice of Martin pre 2017 cause he played in a s**t team, so you think only 5 elite seasons. Again based on the eye test.

Everyone took notice of him in 2016 when he stepped up. Someone of his talent should've been making AA teams, not squads, before then and winning a handful of best and fairests in that mediocre side. In only one season did he win any of the League MVP, Coaches Association Award or Brownlow (all the same year).

How many times did he make the top 5 or top 10 of the coaches votes leaderboard? I can tell you - not many.

Still he did enough for all of 2016-2020 to be considered elite, the rest good but not elite. I'm only telling you the majority view. You don't have to accept it.

 

[Cleansweep17]

4 times in the team. Another 4 times in the squad of 44. So it depends how lenient you are. Someone making the team 8 times has a much stronger case for 8 genuinely elite seasons.

Neutrals will land somewhere between 4-6. Richmond fans swing for 9-11 (we've just seen MR go with 11).

Usually there's claims of a conspiracy theory or someone being desperately upset if you share the majority view.

Also I think people forget what AA squad/team selections means. It doesn’t mean an elite season. It means an elite H&A season.

Which would you rather Dustys 2019 where he got an AA squad selection, Gary Ayers medal and norm smith.

Or somebody who just gets and AA team and nothing else?

I think even you know the answer to this. Which is why I think basing somebody solely on how many AA team selections (like Pendlebury most of which in the bench) is dumb.

 

[Mr Meow]

Also I think people forget what AA squad/team selections means. It doesn’t mean an elite season. It means an elite H&A season.

Which would you rather Dustys 2019 where he got an AA squad selection, Gary Ayers medal and norm smith.

Or somebody who just gets and AA team and nothing else?

I think even you know the answer to this. Which is why I think basing somebody solely on how many AA team selections (like Pendlebury most of which in the bench) is dumb.

I've already told you I rated Martin's 2019 as elite and he easily could've made the AA team even without finals. That's his fifth elite season.

Outside of 2016-2020, in which seasons did his finals push him into elite category? 2013, 2014, 2015 or 2022?

 

[Cleansweep17]

I've already told you I rated Martin's 2019 as elite and he easily could've made the AA team even without finals. That's his fifth elite season.

Outside of 2016-2020, in which seasons did his finals push him into elite category? 2013, 2014, 2015 or 2022?

Did you rate Myres 2023 season as elite when he didn’t even make the squad? Yes I think so.

So at a minimum we have 2016-2020 and 23 as elite seasons. That’s 6. The other 2 squad selections can be debated I guess but I firmly believe if you made the squad you had an elite season. You are in the top 40/44 players in the comp and usually top 5 in your position that’s elite no matter how you slice it.

 

[Cleansweep17]

I've already told you I rated Martin's 2019 as elite and he easily could've made the AA team even without finals. That's his fifth elite season.

Outside of 2016-2020, in which seasons did his finals push him into elite category? 2013, 2014, 2015 or 2022?

Refer to my previous reply

 

[Cleansweep17]

I've already told you I rated Martin's 2019 as elite and he easily could've made the AA team even without finals. That's his fifth elite season.

Outside of 2016-2020, in which seasons did his finals push him into elite category? 2013, 2014, 2015 or 2022?

Also worth noting those seasons outside 2016-2020 where he made the AA squad he all averaged above 20/25 and 1. I think it really answers the debate tbh. Now it really depends on whether you think AA squad sections are elite or not. Most would say yes.

Given the above now you see why Tigers supporters have a particular issue with underrating our players. You’ve literally halved/almost halved the amount of elite seasons he’s had.

 

[Mr Meow]

Did you rate Myres 2023 season as elite when he didn’t even make the squad? Yes I think so.

So at a minimum we have 2016-2020 and 23 as elite seasons. That’s 6. The other 2 squad selections can be debated I guess but I firmly believe if you made the squad you had an elite season. You are in the top 40/44 players in the comp and usually top 5 in your position that’s elite no matter how you slice it.

Miers was never going to make the AA side and not making the squad wasn't a surprise either. A forward will never make it with 7 goals even if they had nearly 60 goal assists. He was top 10 in score involvements like Martin. Dusty had 8 less combined goals/assists in total but the important bit was he had more goals and a blistering finish. A midfielder/forward instead of a pure forward.

You could make a case for either making the squad but not the final team. His best two games were the two dead rubbers at the end. If Martin's best work was spread evenly throughout the season, or Miers kicked more goals - maybe.

6 I don't have a massive problem with though. 11 by virtue of 20/1. No.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Miers was never going to make the AA side and not making the squad wasn't a surprise either. A forward will never make it with 7 goals even if they had nearly 60 goal assists. He was top 10 in score involvements like Martin. Dusty had 8 less combined goals/assists in total but the important bit was he had more goals and a blistering finish. A midfielder/forward instead of a pure forward.

You could make a case for either making the squad but not the final team. His best two games were the two dead rubbers at the end. If Martin's best work was spread evenly throughout the season, or Miers kicked more goals - maybe.

6 I don't have a massive problem with though. 11 by virtue of 20/1. No.

Refer to my previous post. 20 and 1 plus AA squad selections = an elite season. So he’s had 8 elite seasons.

 

[Mr Meow]

Also worth noting those seasons outside 2016-2020 where he made the AA squad he all averaged above 20/25 and 1. I think it really answers the debate tbh. Now it really depends on whether you think AA squad sections are elite or not. Most would say yes.

Given the above now you see why Tigers supporters have a particular issue with underrating our players. You’ve literally halved/almost halved the amount of elite seasons he’s had.

If it answered the debate most people would agree with it. They don't. This thread is further evidence of that.

They're silly guidelines. I showed that 26.5 disposals and 0.7 goals gave Ablett 10 elite seasons, Dangerfield 6 and Martin 1. But it is just drawing stupid lines. Maybe 30 and 1 or 17 and 2.5 is the holy grail. Who's to say.

 

[Mr Meow]

Refer to my previous post. 20 and 1 plus AA squad selections = an elite season. So he’s had 8 elite seasons.

5 unfortunately. 6 isn't crazy. 8 is pushing it too far. Raise your standards.

 

[Orange crush]

If it answered the debate most people would agree with it. They don't. This thread is further evidence of that.

They're silly guidelines. I showed that 26.5 disposals and 0.7 goals gave Ablett 10 elite seasons, Dangerfield 6 and Martin 1. But it is just drawing stupid lines. Maybe 30 and 1 or 17 and 2.5 is the holy grail. Who's to say.

definitely 17 + 2.5

as a mid/orward the extra goal is more valuable than a handful of touches

 

[Cleansweep17]

5 unfortunately. 6 isn't crazy. 8 is pushing it too far. Raise your standards.

So you don’t rate squad selections as elite good to know. I know you don’t want to admit Dusty has elite longevity (cause that’s the only knock on him really) but it’s getting ridiculous.

Like I said earlier 8 elite seasons (all of which averaged 20 and 1 bar 2016 where he didn’t go forward plus AA squad) makes sense to have 8th all time career Brownlow votes not 5.

 

[Mr Meow]

So you don’t rate squad selections as elite good to know. I know you don’t want to admit Dusty has elite longevity (cause that’s the only knock on him really) but it’s getting ridiculous.

Like I said earlier 8 elite seasons (all of which averaged 20 and 1 bar 2016 where he didn’t go forward plus AA squad) makes sense to have 8th all time career Brownlow votes not 5.

I, like many many others, consider his 2016-2020 seasons elite. Three super finals aeries. One overall season (2017) super elite. You think it's 8, MR is pushing for 11.

It's fine to disagree and it's fine for you to have a minority view. Be brave and wear it proudly with the other few Tigers guys. I can't quite give you the validation you're looking for.

 

[Cleansweep17]

I, like many many others, consider his 2016-2020 seasons elite. One (2017) super elite.

It's fine to disagree and it's fine for you to have a minority view. Be brave and wear it proudly with the other few Tigers guys. I can't quite give you the validation you're looking for.

You dodged the question. Do you rate AA squad selections as elite or not?

2014 - 2023 he was at a minimum AA squad. Except 2021 and 2022 when he was injured and depressed from his fathers death. All seasons averaged 20 and 1 bar 2016 when he didn’t play forward. This is Uber elite consistency no matter how you slice it and answers the debate on whether 20 and 1 is elite. There is a direct correlation between 20 and 1 with AA squad selections. Dusty proves it and why he is selected by many in the team of the 21st century thread as a HF. Case closed.

 

[Cleansweep17]

I, like many many others, consider his 2016-2020 seasons elite. Three super finals aeries. One overall season (2017) super elite. You think it's 8, MR is pushing for 11.

It's fine to disagree and it's fine for you to have a minority view. Be brave and wear it proudly with the other few Tigers guys. I can't quite give you the validation you're looking for.

Just a quick question how many AA squad selections (including making the team) did GAJ have? He is usually the benchmark for Uber elite consistency.

 

[Mr Meow]

Just a quick question how many AA squad selections (including making the team) did GAJ have? He is usually the benchmark for Uber elite consistency.

8 times in the team of 22. In fact all 8 times as the starting ruck rover. 1st, 1st, 1st, 6th, 5th, 3rd, 2nd and 5th (would've been 1st again but for injury) on the coaches votes leaderboard.

All irrefutably elite seasons.

I'm not including his 2019 as I haven't included Martin's 2013 or 2023 etc.

 

[Mr Meow]

You dodged the question. Do you rate AA squad selections as elite or not?

2014 - 2023 he was at a minimum AA squad. Except 2021 and 2022 when he was injured and depressed from his fathers death. All seasons averaged 20 and 1 bar 2016 when he didn’t play forward. This is Uber elite consistency no matter how you slice it and answers the debate on whether 20 and 1 is elite. There is a direct correlation between 20 and 1 with AA squad selections. Dusty proves it and why he is selected by many in the team of the 21st century thread as a HF. Case closed.

I don't rate those seasons outside of 2016-2020 as elite, nor do others.

You are desperately trying to declare this as debate won and it is starting to become amusing. Am I kind and get us to move on or do I see if I get an even more furious response? Undecided.

 

[Cleansweep17]

8 times in the team of 22. In fact all 8 times as the starting ruck rover. 1st, 1st, 1st, 6th, 5th, 3rd, 2nd and 5th (would've been 1st again but for injury) on the coaches votes leaderboard.

All irrefutably elite seasons.

I'm not including his 2019 as I haven't included Martin's 2013 or 2023 etc.

So 9 AA quads v 8 for Dusty. Interesting, lucky you don’t rate AA squads as elite right? It would make you look like a hypocrite. But wait 2019 was an elite season though and that was just a squad?

 

[Mr Meow]

So 9 AA quads v 8 for Dusty. Interesting, lucky you don’t rate AA squads as elite right? It would make you look like a Hypocrite. But wait 2019 was an elite season though?

9 quads would make you an unbelievable player, no doubt - as long as you had the equivalent hamstrings, calves, feet etc.

8 times as the starting ruck rover - all top 6 in the coaches votes - is indeed a much stronger mark for elite longevity.

Thankfully I have the neutrals on my side for this one and capitalising hypocrite randomly doesn't add to your case.

 

[Cleansweep17]

I don't rate those seasons outside of 2016-2020 as elite, nor do others.

You are desperately trying to declare this as debate won and it is starting to become amusing. Am I kind and get us to move on or do I see if I get an even more furious response? Undecided.

Do you rate AA squads as elite yes or no? Stop being a coward hiding behind others opinions.

You do rate his 2019 as elite so I’m assuming it’s yes.

This is not a negation like pawn stars where I say 8 you say 5 and we agree on 6.

It’s either 8 if you think AA squads are elite or 4 if you don’t. So which is it? I am confident most people think if you make the AA squad you are elite. So it’s 8 (7/8 with the 20 and 1 average)

 

[Cleansweep17]

9 quads would make you an unbelievable player, no doubt - as long as you had the equivalent hamstrings, calves, feet etc.

8 times as the starting ruck rover - all top 6 in the coaches votes - is indeed a much stronger mark for elite longevity.

Thankfully I have the neutrals on my side for this one and capitalising hypocrite randomly doesn't add to your case.

Dodged the question again absolutely no spine

 

[doppleganger]

You dodged the question. Do you rate AA squad selections as elite or not?

Harry Taylor had 5 consecutive AA squads.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Harry Taylor had 5 consecutive AA squads.

And he is therefore elite in all of them. You were rating him higher than rance on the other thread. So it makes sense.

 

[Mr Meow]

Do you rate AA squads as elite yes or no? Stop being a coward hiding behind others opinions.

You do rate his 2019 as elite so I’m assuming it’s yes.

This is not a negation like pawn stars where I say 8 you say 5 and we agree on 6.

It’s either 8 if you think AA squads are elite or 4 if you don’t. So which is it? I am confident most people think if you make the AA squad you are elite. So it’s 8 (7/8 with the 20 and 1 average)

Not a negation? So an addition? Sorry I'm having trouble understanding some of your phrasing. Take your time when responding.

I do rate 2019 elite as I, with my own brain having watched the season, thought he deserved a spot in the AA side ahead of Cox in a forward pocket.

An AA squad of 44 selection does not automatically make your status elite though, no. It is pretty hard to argue that any player making the AA side of 22 was not elite or close to it. An attacking midfielder hitting mid 40s coaches votes as a 22-24 year old? You can do better than that. Ablett as a 23 year old was already winning League MVPs and the coaches association award with 105 votes. Elite.