20 Disposals and a goal

[Fadge]

Most would agree that an AA squad selection makes an elite season. So it’s 8

At least you've evolved from 'everyone' to 'most'.

 

[Cleansweep17]

This really tugs at the heart strings.

If you need it that much we can just pretend it's 8 and you move on, happy? I don't actually want this stuff to take a toll on you. It's a majority opinion. You're allowed to think Richmond fans would have a less biased view of Martin than everybody else. Maybe go with that?

Do you think the majority think AA squad isn’t an elite season? Yes or No?

Weren’t you the guy that got pissed off Myres didn’t make it?

 

[Mr Meow]

Do you think the majority think AA squad isn’t an elite season? Yes or No?

Weren’t you the guy that got pissed off Myres didn’t make it?

Which account were you on previously? I didn't have Miers (your spelling is a nightmare by the way) or Martin in my AA team. I said Miers was a contender for the squad of 40 but that lack of goals would count against him.

The majority didn't consider Martin elite 2013-2015 or 2023. I really am sorry it's that way.

I wonder how long it will take you to get over.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Which account were you on previously? I didn't have Miers (your spelling is a nightmare by the way) or Martin in my AA team. I said Miers was a contender for the squad of 40 but that lack of goals would count against him.

The majority didn't consider Martin elite 2013-2015 or 2023. I really am sorry it's that way.

I wonder how long it will take you to get over.

Nope I was referring to the squad and you did. Something about most goal assists or whatever. But you keep going ahead being a hypocrite like usual, it’s fine to be one just don’t act unbiased.

And answer my question ffs. Stop being a lil bitch.

 

[Mr Meow]

"But-but-but Dustie made the AA SQUAD!"

God it's pathetic. Find a new tune, this one's not the sweet melody you think it is.

4 AA selections is a fine effort and puts Martin in the same group as Nathan Burke, Craig Bradley, Garry Hocking and Shane Crawford. All bloody good players.

It's a little better than Matthew Boyd and Nick Dal Santo; a little worse than Scott West and Gavin Wanganeen.

 

[Noidnadroj]

What is this where people are now using AA Squad selection to determine whether or not a season was elite?

Taranto was clearly Richmond's best player whilst the 2023 season was on the line.

Martin made up ground in the Richmond b&f once finals were out of the question, to get within 20% of Taranto's total votes.

But Martin was elite in 2023, yet Taranto wasn't?

Of course players outside AA squad can have had an elite season. But with only 6% of players chosen in the AA squad, it’s a pretty good starting point to being recognised as an elite season. If the squad selection is married up with a top-3 B&F finish and stats/data not many playing a similar position achieved, then if it’s not rated elite it probably comes down to each individuals description of elite.

The AFL describes it as being in the top-10% of players in your position. You might judge elite as needing to be in the best-2 of your position.

So for 2023, for players who averaged 20+ possessions - 118 of them.

Martin was:

SI: #2
Goals: #2
Centre clearances / CBA: 6th
Marks I50: #1
SI%: 4th

So for players winning 20+ disposals, he was clearly in the top couple for scoreboard impact.

Then for players who averaged 1+ goals - 105 of them:

Coaches votes: 7th
Disposals: 2nd
1v1s 1st
CP: 2nd
UP: 2nd
Clearances: 4th

So if you want to compare his coaches votes to pure midfielders that’s fine … also compare his scoreboard influence which was elite.

And if you want to compare his goals scored to purely forwards that’s fine, his other midfield related stats are elite.

Regardless of any caveats you put on it, he averaged 23.6 and 1.25 per game. Something 5 x players have done in the last 12-years. He made AA squad and finished 2nd in B&F (having missed 3 games). If that’s not elite to anyone then they have a different definition of elite to most, and that’s fine.

And feel free to remove his last 2 x rounds where he got 17 coaches votes. Prior to that he averaged 22.67 and 1.17. Also something about 5 players have achieved in the last 12-years.

Any player who achieves a disposal/goal combination 5 players have achieved in the last 12-years then that’s elite for me - add in AA squad and 2nd in B&F, and 5th in the competition for Score Involvements and it’s not really that much of a debate.

But if you or others have your own definition of elite and he didn’t meet that I can’t change your criteria so we just agree to disagree.


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[RUNVS]

4 AA selections is a fine effort and puts Martin in the same group as Nathan Burke, Craig Bradley, Garry Hocking and Shane Crawford. All bloody good players.

It's a little better than Matthew Boyd and Nick Dal Santo; a little worse than Scott West and Gavin Wanganeen.

Yep, but that is not enough for Richmond fans as they want Martin to be seen as the best ever.

 

[Mr Meow]

Nope I was referring to the squad and you did. Something about most goal assists or whatever. But you keep going ahead being a hypocrite like usual, it’s fine to be one just don’t act unbiased.

And answer my question ffs. Stop being a lil bitch.

Miers was a shot at the squad of 40 but not the final team, just like Martin. I certainly didn't cry about his omission from that squad. Such low amount of goals has never had a forward selected and we would probably need 60 goal assists before that changed.

5 elite seasons for Martin - consensus.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Fanny.

I'm not finding the AA thread for you. In fact you were posting in there.

I'd avoid it if you don't want to be reminded.

Of course every opinion you have is "data backed" and endorsed by unbiased heavyweights such as MR, blaisee, Aristotle and Falcon.

Ultimately you've never been happy with Martin's standing of 5 elite seasons and I will never be happy or unhappy bringing it up.

Just man up and say you made it up that Martin’s AA squad selection was disputed by the majority. If it was disputed then you’d have found it and linked to it with much joy.

Why do you make things up?


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[STPer18]

Most would agree that an AA squad selection makes an elite season. So it’s 8

What would that make a player who made the actual AA team 8 times then? Eight mega ultra elite seasons?

There's a current player who's an 8xAA, Brownlow medalist, Coaches MVP, Players' MVP, Finals MVP and to keep it on topic has a career average of over this legendary 20&1 - pretty much any award you can think of he's won it - and he's not even his club's greatest player of the 21st century let alone GOAT. Needing and relying on squad selections to pump up Dustie's resume kind of says all you need to know.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Miers was a shot at the squad of 40 but not the final team, just like Martin. I certainly didn't cry about his omission from that squad. Such low amount of goals has never had a forward selected and we would probably need 60 goal assists before that changed.

5 elite seasons for Martin - consensus.

Best finals player ever - consensus

But you keep caring about measly H&A awards. Shit that’s sad.

 

[Mr Meow]

Of course players outside AA squad can have had an elite season. But with only 6% of players chosen in the AA squad, it’s a pretty good starting point to being recognised as an elite season. If the squad selection is married up with a top-3 B&F finish and stats/data not many playing a similar position achieved, then if it’s not rated elite it probably comes down to each individuals description of elite.

The AFL describes it as being in the top-10% of players in your position. You might judge elite as needing to be in the best-2 of your position.

So for 2023, for players who averaged 20+ possessions - 118 of them.

Martin was:

SI: #2
Goals: #2
Centre clearances / CBA: 6th
Marks I50: #1
SI%: 4th

So for players winning 20+ disposals, he was clearly in the top couple for scoreboard impact.

Then for players who averaged 1+ goals - 105 of them:

Coaches votes: 7th
Disposals: 2nd
1v1s 1st
CP: 2nd
UP: 2nd
Clearances: 4th

So if you want to compare his coaches votes to pure midfielders that’s fine … also compare his scoreboard influence which was elite.

And if you want to compare his goals scored to purely forwards that’s fine, his other midfield related stats are elite.

Regardless of any caveats you put on it, he averaged 23.6 and 1.25 per game. Something 5 x players have done in the last 12-years. He made AA squad and finished 2nd in B&F (having missed 3 games). If that’s not elite to anyone then they have a different definition of elite to most, and that’s fine.

And feel free to remove his last 2 x rounds where he got 17 coaches votes. Prior to that he averaged 22.67 and 1.17. Also something about 5 players have achieved in the last 12-years.

Any player who achieves a disposal/goal combination 5 players have achieved in the last 12-years then that’s elite for me - add in AA squad and 2nd in B&F, and 5th in the competition for Score Involvements and it’s not really that much of a debate.

But if you or others have your own definition of elite and he didn’t meet that I can’t change your criteria so we just agree to disagree.


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You get about 25 general forwards (non KPFs)/midfielders in each squad of 40. At least making the final team can put you in the best 13 or so. There's a stack of players for line ball decisions once you get down to 20-25 from that list.

Martin had 30 coaches votes before the two dead rubbers to finish the season. 13 votes to round 16. That's not enough for a midfielder/forward hybrid to be considered elite.

 

[PhatBoy]

Meow is not the majority view.

He said Harry Taylor with 5 x AA squad selections, 2 x AA, 1 x top-3 in B&F had 7-8 elite seasons.

Martin with 8 x AA squad selections, 4 x AA, 9 x top-3 B&F has only 5.

He barracks for Geelong. Can you tell? Bahaha.


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His Geelong icon says that he barracks for Geelong and he says that he barracks for Geelong so we knew that he barracked for Geelong.

 

[Cleansweep17]

What would that make a player who made the actual AA team 8 times then? Eight mega ultra elite seasons?

There's a current player who's an 8xAA, Brownlow medalist, Coaches MVP, Players' MVP, Finals MVP and to keep it on topic has a career average of over this legendary 20&1 - pretty much any award you can think of he's won it - and he's not even his club's greatest player of the 21st century let alone GOAT. Needing and relying on squad selections to pump up Dustie's resume kind of says all you need to know.

Danger is not better than Dusty. Gimme a break.

And yes AA team and Brownlows etc are mega elite, it’s sort of the point of them.

 

[Mr Meow]

Just man up and say you made it up that Martin’s AA squad selection was disputed by the majority. If it was disputed then you’d have found it and linked to it with much joy.

Why do you make things up?


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Look at the rolling teams through the year, he was Mr Invisible. So of course his contention for the squad of 40 was in dispute. Before his fast finish he wasn't being mentioned at all.

However...if you need it that badly I can pretend Martin was locked in everyone's squad of 40 all year.

It is seriously funny that I have to do this for you.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Yep, but that is not enough for Richmond fans as they want Martin to be seen as the best ever.

No we don’t. We just don’t like him being discredited. Absolutely no issue with you saying Buddy is better for example. It’s a reasonable opinion.

 

[Mr Meow]

Best finals player ever - consensus

But you keep caring about measly H&A awards. s**t that’s sad.

Measly awards? You've been acting like the 30 forward/midfielders picked each year for the AA squad are the Holy Grail.

 

[Cleansweep17]

You get about 25 general forwards (non KPFs)/midfielders in each squad of 40. At least making the final team can put you in the best 13 or so. There's a stack of players for line ball decisions once you get down to 20-25 from that list.

Martin had 30 coaches votes before the two dead rubbers to finish the season. 13 votes to round 16. That's not enough for a midfielder/forward hybrid to be considered elite.

It’s enough to make the AA squad and even Kane Cornes who hates Richmond and is an AA selector say he had an “excellent season” stop making a fool of yourself.

 

[Mr Meow]

It’s enough to make the AA squad and even Kan Cornes who hates Richmond and is an AA selection said he had an “excellent season”

What's a Kan Cornes and why was it an AA selection so many years after retiring?

 

[Noidnadroj]

Martin as an attacking midfielder who rotates forward is best favoured of any player to make the AA best 22 and squad of 40. His dual position status makes him perfect for the flank and you're right they stuff as many midfielders in as possible, so one who can be popped on the flank is ideal. A real forward will more often than not be sacrificed.

In 2015, around 30 of the AA squad of 40 were forwards or midfielders. If you're in the lower end of those 30 as a forward/midfielder, you are not by default elite.

Now if you've won a a BnF or are top 10 or even top 20 in the coaches votes? You're starting to build a case. 20+ disposals and 1+ isn't the gold stamp that locks it in.

2015…

Martin averaged 26 and 1. He came 14th in the comp for coaches votes, so top 2% from coaches give or take. He got 21 Brownlow votes, so top 0.5% from umpires give or take. He came 2nd in B&F in a team than went 15-7.

For all players who averaged 1+ goals, so not 100% pure mids, he was #1 for coaches votes.

But it’s not elite because the likes of McLachlan and Gerard Healy gave the nod to xyz player over Martin for the AA team….

If you are in the top 1-2% of players as judged by coaches and umpires, and average 26/1, then if that’s not elite it means your criteria for elite is different to nearly everyone else’s. And that’s fine.


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[Cleansweep17]

Measly awards? You've been acting like the 30 forward/midfielders picked each year for the AA squad are the Holy Grail.

You should know by now I rate peak over consistency and finals over H&A. I really don’t care how many elite seasons in H&A you say he had. I’m just pointing out your hypocrisy using your own logic. You don’t even agree with yourself half the time like with the Taylor example and have to back pedal. I suffer from bad 2nd hand embarrassment and boy do you make me cringe.

 

[Mr Meow]

2015…

Martin averaged 26 and 1. He came 14th in the comp for coaches votes, so top 2% from coaches give or take. He got 21 Brownlow votes, so top 0.5% from umpires give or take. He came 2nd in B&F in a team than went 15-7.

For all players who averaged 1+ goals, so not 100% pure mids, he was #1 for coaches votes.

But it’s not elite because the likes of McLachlan and Gerard Healy gave the nod to xyz player over Martin for the AA team….

If you are in the top 1-2% of players as judged by coaches and umpires, and average 26/1, then if that’s not elite it means your criteria for elite is different to nearly everyone else’s. And that’s fine.


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I want a midfielder in their prime a bit higher on the coaches votes leaderboard or in the AA side to slam dunk elite status for the season. There are so many spots for a midfielder who can pop forward too. Winning the BnF could be a good boost. 2015 was the best outside of the 2016-2020 period though.

 

[Cleansweep17]

I want a midfielder in their prime a bit higher on the coaches votes leaderboard or in the AA side to slam dunk elite status for the season. There are so many spots for a midfielder who can pop forward too. Winning the BnF could be a good boost. 2015 was the best outside of the 2016-2020 period though.

Just say you use your eye test.

No need to say anything else. We get it.

 

[Mr Meow]

You should know by now I rate peak over consistency and finals over H&A. I really don’t care how many elite seasons in H&A you say he had. I’m just pointing out your hypocrisy using your own logic. You don’t even agree with yourself half the time like with the Taylor example and have to back pedal. I suffer from bad 2nd hand embarrassment and boy do you make me cringe.

You don't care yet you argued over it with how many hysterical posts?

I'd have thought reading your own posts would be a sufficient source of embarrassment.

 

[PhatBoy]

F**ken hell what is it with these f**king threads does everyone of them need to turn into one group of deadbeats needing to be patted on the bum and told their best mate is a great player?