NFL 2013 NFL - Off-Season & Pre-Draft Discussion

[Exe Gesis]

It's a never-ending debate on ibabuzz, but always interesting, posting a snippet of it....

Ask the 49ers how important KR is. They just lost a Super Bowl to an elite kick returner, and lost last years Conference championship due to having a low-end, plug and fill punt returner.
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-49ers have the best OL in the NFL, and they lost to a team that has better skill players (QB, WRs, KR, etc…)
-2 teams won 4 SBs without investing a lot in their OL.
Great OLs are overrated in today’s game.
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The browns and eagles invested a lot in their OLs, so did that help them win a SB?
They pick 4th and 6th in this draft.
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It was very comforting to know that with a lead and four minutes left the game it was usually over with a wall of Shell, Upshaw, Dalby/Otto, Marvin and Lawrence/Vella.
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Different game today man.
4 minutes means 2 possessions left.
Teams only need about 30 seconds to go 25-30 yards, and kickers are making 54 yard game-winning FG’s no prob, which they wouldn’t even have tried in the 70’s.
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Some teams don’t even have a FB.
It is a different game.
Steelers won 2 SBs with one of the worst OL in the league.
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What did the Falcons go, 35 yards in 25 seconds or something against Seattle?
Same thing against us, and kicked a 55 yard FG to win it.
If a kicker made a 55 yard game-winning FG in the 70’s, they would have put him on the cover of SI.
Now, it is old hat.
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From 1967 to 1975, Blanda was 1 of 10 on 50+ yard FG’s.
That has completely changed the landscape of end of game situations, with kickers routinely making 53+ yard FG’s.
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You can not run OR pass efectively without a good Oline.
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You know, it obviously helps, but I just don’t buy that every “effective” running or passing team has a good O-line.
The Ravens got some shoddy LT play all season and seemed fine. Bears have some of the worst O-line play ever in the history of football, and can run and fling it most weeks.
Colts O-line graded out as 2nd worst in football, but everytime they needed a score with 3 minutes to go, they got it.
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Yep, great OLs are overrated in today’s game.
We don’t have a great OL, and we still managed to throw for 4000+ yards.

 

[Blacky]

Maybe spending too much on an O line is a bad idea, but you at least have to invest something. Just ask Kolb, Carr, Bradford, Rivers etc.

 

[GreyWind]

I think a lot of people are under estimating just how valuable a good o-line is. They obviously make everything easier from the play calling, giving the QB more time, opening up bigger lanes in the running game and then in offensive alignment you don't have to waste tight ends as extra blockers because your tackles suck. Not to mention a better o-line generally gives up less sacks throughout the season meaning your QB gets hit less and therefore less chance for injury to occur.

Then you look at what a good o-line can do to an average or below average d-line, they can't get pressure from a base formation so then the D has to ramp up it's blitzes to get to the QB opening up the field for the WRs to get open.

 

[Dagless]

Uhhh the Ravens looked like shit for the second half of the year, until they made some integral changes to the oline, after which it played lights out during the playoffs. Flacco had a ton of time for half of the SB.

A star QB will always overcome shoddy Oline play, but for 80% of the league, it's pretty key.

 

[Blacky]

Probably not a perfect example, but a lot of 'Bama's success this year was off the back of their line.

 

[Exe Gesis]

I just let others debate, hardly contribute.
For me, OL vs Front 7 is ALWAYS the key to football...even tho the game has changed so much.
Once you have a top 15 or higher OL, then start upgrading the playmaking positions....not the other way around.

 

[Dirty Bird]

With the evolution of the NFL, OLines are more useless than ever.
Having said that, I still think an OLine is more important than your receiving corps.
I just think that 15+ years ago the OLine was the most important spot in your team (well, maybe outside of the running backs (and yes, FB included))

In the modern NFL - All you need is.
1) Enough time to hit a slant
2) Forward movement from the OL giving the RB 2-3 yards minimum.

Only 1 of that (Like Falcons only succeeding on #1 these days) and you're not good enough. Can't run a balanced offence well (as a run puts you in the same position basically as an incompletion)
More than that (Look at Minnesota now) and you can do huge damage with lessar players like Ponder behind center.

In todays football

QB > OLine > RB > Receiving corps

 

[GreyWind]

Uhhh the Ravens looked like shit for the second half of the year, until they made some integral changes to the oline, after which it played lights out during the playoffs. Flacco had a ton of time for half of the SB.

A star QB will always overcome shoddy Oline play, but for 80% of the league, it's pretty key.

Agree with that last part. Rodgers showed that this year, but give him a proper o-line and while I doubt anything would have changed this season, I know I'd feel a lot better during game day knowing that every snap wasn't going to result in Rodgers getting hit.

 

[Dagless]

Agree with that last part. Rodgers showed that this year, but give him a proper o-line and while I doubt anything would have changed this season, I know I'd feel a lot better during game day knowing that every snap wasn't going to result in Rodgers getting hit.

(Partially of his own accord of course) but agreed.

Still dunno if he could have overcome the D performance however

 

[Dirty Bird]

Probably not a perfect example, but a lot of 'Bama's success this year was off the back of their line.

It's because they play old-school football.
They NEED a strong OL.
Without one, they're ****ed.

Alabama, Stanford, Notre Dame, Wisconsin and LSU are probably the only 5 schools in college that would collapse astoundingly with a shit run blocking OL. Imagine Boise State's OL playing for them! Sure. The Broncos might have one of the best pass blocking OLs in college. But run blocking they stink. All those 5 teams would stink with run blocking like that.

They'd need a back like Barry Sanders or Marcus Dupree back there to just survive.

 

[GreyWind]

(Partially of his own accord of course) but agreed.

Still dunno if he could have overcome the D performance however

Agree again, he does hold onto the ball too long occasionally making it hell for our already suspect line to hold their blocks rather than just throwing it away.

As good as he is even he can't over come the deficiencies in this defence right now . I'm very interested in this years draft as I believe the Packers have 5 years max to win another Super Bowl before we have to start again.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

With the evolution of the NFL, OLines are more useless than ever.
Having said that, I still think an OLine is more important than your receiving corps.
I just think that 15+ years ago the OLine was the most important spot in your team (well, maybe outside of the running backs (and yes, FB included))

In the modern NFL - All you need is.
1) Enough time to hit a slant
2) Forward movement from the OL giving the RB 2-3 yards minimum.

Only 1 of that (Like Falcons only succeeding on #1 these days) and you're not good enough. Can't run a balanced offence well (as a run puts you in the same position basically as an incompletion)
More than that (Look at Minnesota now) and you can do huge damage with lessar players like Ponder behind center.

In todays football

QB > OLine > RB > Receiving corps

So let me get this straight. You first state that OLines are more useless than ever, but go on to say that they're more important than RB/WR!!!

 

[GreyWind]

So let me get this straight. You first state that OLines are more useless than ever, but go on to say that they're more important than RB/WR!!!

Well he did say that they are more useful than receivers, so really it should be QB > RB > O-line > WR. Which I would disagree with.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

I suppose you can win a SB without a decent OL if you look at Giants last season and Steelers a few years ago, heck even with an ordinary offense (ravens 2000) but it took very good D's for those teams to win. Most SB winners were strong at OL.

To me QB > OL and the rest (RB/WR) take care of themselves.

 

[Exe Gesis]

For me....

OL > QB > DL/LB > HB > WR > CB/SS/FS > TE > KI > KR/PR > FB > PU > LS

Or more detailed...

LT > QB > C > RDE > NT > UT > LDE > RT > LG/RG > MLB/ILB > OLB > HB > FL > SE > SL > LCB > RCB > NB > SS > FS > TE > KI > KR > FB > PR > PU > LS

 

[Exe Gesis]

Anyone that says that about line play does not understand the game.

Ray Lewis made the point best:

Ray Lewis made his point clear. Ten days before Saturday’s NFL Draft, he went on ESPN and said his Baltimore Ravens needed to draft a run-stuffing nose tackle in the first round. His former teammate, Maake Kemoeatu, a 350-pound nose tackle, had signed as a free agent with Carolina.

Without a big man in front of him, Lewis complained, he could not make plays. “If I’m not being used right,” he said, “you might as well let me go.”

9 of your starting 22 (41%) plays exclusively in the box.

OLines create time and space. Dlines destroy time and space.

The rest of the pieces fill in the gaps.

A team will never be a consistently, strong, winning franchise building the lines with low round draft picks or free agents.

Taken to another extreme, a team will not be able to beat their division/conference competition when they consistently use high picks to build this part of their team.

These are typically 270-320 pound athletes that need to have the agility and quickness of college level skill players. You are not likely to find premier or at least very good lineman in the fifth to seventh round or packing out at Wal Mart THAT ARE BETTER THAN WHAT OTHER NFL TEAMS HAVE.

A team needs to build their CORE through the draft and expend enough high round draft picks on lineman to ensure superior line play. You build the core of your team through the draft especially with the rookie cap in place. You use FA’s for niche pieces to buy time or plug a hole.

Then the inevitable rebuttal, it's a never-ending circle....

After Ray Lewis made that quote…..they kept the same NT for the next 5 years.
His name was Kelly Gregg.
Ngata played DE and they went 5-11 his second year.
Why? No QB.
Drafted Flacco and they have taken off.

 

[Exe Gesis]

That circle again...

GIANTS/STEELERS DRAFT HISTORY FOR THE PAST TEN YEARS REVEALS THE FOLLOWING:

The Giants drafted 8 “in the box” type players with first or second round picks during the past decade.
What is misleading is when you go back a bit further you find:

STRAHAN #1
PETITGOUT #1
GRAGG #2

The Giants had the good fortune of getting unusual longevity out of VERY HIGH DRAFT PICKS. AS A RESULT THEY HAD A CORE THAT ALLOWED THEM TO FOCUS ON SKILL GUYS WITH HIGH PICKS BECAUSE THEY HAD BUILT THE CORE OF THEIR LINES IN THE LATE 90’S.

The Steelers drafted 12 “in the box” type players with first or second round picks during the last decade.

BY CONTRAST THE RAIDERS DRAFTED 7 IN THE BOX TYPE PLAYERS WITH HIGH ROUND PICKS. THEY ALSO TRADED AWAY THREE OF THEIR 20 HIGH ROUND PICKS DURING THAT TIME. MOST WERE ALL AVERAGE TO POOR PICKS. BRAYTON,HOWARD,GALLERY,GROVE,McCLAIN. WE CAN BE GENEROUS AND SAY THAT HOUSTON AND WIZ II WERE SUCCESSFUL.

THE MORAL OF THE STORY IS THAT SUCCESSFUL WINNING FRANCHISES BUILD THE CORE OF THEIR LINES WITH FIRST AND SECOND ROUND PICKS. IF THEY MISS THEY KEEP DOING IT TILL THEY GET IT RIGHT.

THAT IS WHAT THE RAIDERS USED TO DO AND THEY GOT AWAY FROM IT FOR THE LAST DECADE.

ANYONE SAYING THAT IT IS UNWISE TO USE TOP PICKS ON “IN THE BOX TALENT” IS NOT KNOWLEDGABLE ABOUT RAIDER HISTORY OR THE GAME:

Conners #2 Schuh #2 Upshaw #1 Thoms #1 Buehler #2 Villapianao #2 Korver #2 Johnson#2 Lawrence #2 Millen #2 Mosebar #1 Pickell #2

Your strategy is simply a low percenatge play.
Can you find an Oher or Ngata in the 7th round?
Maybe.
Much higher chance in rounds one and two.
The Raiders have tried your approach on our lines for the last ten years with disastrous results.
Our best three lineman are Veld (3), Wiz(2) and Houston(2).
HOW DID WE GET THEM?
Given our pathetic line situation the lines have to be our first priority.
9-51 against playoff teams for the last ten years losing by an average of 30-13 says it all.
You will never beat playoff teams in the NFL if you do not win on the lines. NEVER!

 

[Exe Gesis]

As for the Raiders off-season inactivity...

WHY HAVEN’T WE RELEASED ANYONE ALREADY?
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Per Rotoworld and other sources from the forbidden website: Seymour, Brisiel and Tollefson are gone, DHB may be gone, Huff’s restructuring and CP’s looking at a pay cut if he wants to stay.

McClain is almost certainly gone and Branch is almost certainly going to continue being an overpaid revolving door for the other team’s big plays.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

OLines create time and space. Dlines destroy time and space.

I particularly like that line.

 

[Blacky]

AJ threw 3 INTs all year because he had a month to throw each time.

I think I more or less would go.

QB > LT > R/LDE > RT > DT > CB > LG/RG > MLB > OLB > SS > HB > WR > FS > TE > KI > KR > PR > FB > PU > LS

Having said that, positions like OLB go down in value if you have a strong DE

 

[Dirty Bird]

For me....

OL > QB > DL/LB > HB > WR > CB/SS/FS > TE > KI > KR/PR > FB > PU > LS

Or more detailed...

LT > QB > C > RDE > NT > UT > LDE > RT > LG/RG > MLB/ILB > OLB > HB > FL > SE > SL > LCB > RCB > NB > SS > FS > TE > KI > KR > FB > PR > PU > LS

Depends on the system for defence.
If you're a 3-4 a NT and OLB would shit over a DE/MLB
If you're a 4-3 a RE would shit over ILB/OLB

So let me get this straight. You first state that OLines are more useless than ever, but go on to say that they're more important than RB/WR!!!

I think in run first offence (so 10+ years ago) OL were the most important facet in a team. But with more passing attacks, with short easy stuff, Pass blocking is a lessar need.

So I'd say that 15-20 years ago it would go OL >>>>>>>>> RB > QB >>>> WR whereas today it's QB >>>> OL >>>> RB >>>>>>> WR

 

[Exe Gesis]

The way the NFL is in danger of heading towards CFL....in the CFL OL/DL is almost irrelevant. They stand a yard apart, big difference, they're more light small agile, it's all about passing, they have the running in-motion player, wider field, three downs.

The OL is becoming less crucial if the NFL continues down this path + increase of Spread offense and No Huddle and Up-Tempo Chip Kelly-like.

If the NFL tries to ensure a BALANCE between run/pass and between Offense/Defense is kept...then OL/DL importance will still be paramount.

 

[catters078]

The annual "Draft prospect breaking the law" incident

http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2013/st...rmer-georgia-bulldogs-linebacker-arrested-dui

Doubt it will affect his draft status, likely in the mid 20's

 

[Shade]

Ogletree is the best MLB in the draft that wont do anything.

 

[catters078]

Ogletree is the best MLB in the draft that wont do anything.

agreed, him and Minter for me are the two go to ILB's

interested fact about Alec ogletree, he has a twin brother called alexander ogletree who also plays football at georgia (full back)