Strategy 2013 v 2014 Draftees, who would you take

[aussierulesrules]

When money comes into it, it's probably a bit of a no-brainer, unless Boyd is just stupidly, incredibly good, like Tony Lockett-good, and Paddy only say Jay Schultz-type good at best. Otherwise, we'll be paying Paddy around $100K next season and then we'll probably look to extend his contract by 3 years at the end of next season, meaning we may end up paying him around $1.3mil for his first 4 years with us, while WB will be paying Boyd around $4mil for his first 4 years with them and there is an awful lot you can do with $2.7mil over 3 years (the likely estimated difference over that first 4 years) and then whatever the gap is between their contracts in the last 3 years of the next 7, if Boyd is still getting more than Paddy.

I think WB made the best of a bad situation though and doubt they have too many, if any regrets.

 

[Dogsman16]

For me the McCartin v Boyd debate comes down to their cost. If i was picking teams in the schoolyard then I'd probably take Boyd, but if I had to give up what the Dogs gave up for Boyd then I'd take McCartin. I know the whole cost thing isn't really what this thread is about, but I find it pretty hard to over look.

I'd be interested to hear what Dogs fans think they would have done if they had pick 1 this year? Do you think you still would given up as much for Boyd or would you have taken McCartin as a cheaper option while still trading Griffen to GWS?

E: By "this year" I mean 2014.

Preferably I still would have given up just as much to get Boyd for a couple of reasons. 1) I believe that Boyd is the more dominant player and has the greater possibility to become an elite player (speculative of course) but 2) Think he fits our structure better than McCartin does quite simply as we already have Stringer who can already play that type of lead up full forward. Think both McCartin and Stringer share a couple of similarities so Boyd quite simply fits better. Ideally I would have liked Hogan out of the Hogan/Boyd/McCartin debate as Hogan at CHF, Stringer at FF and Tom Campbell as the third tall/2nd ruck would be the ideal fit (Similar to a hawthorn structure of Roughy, Gunston and Hale/McEvoy). But based on junior form as well as Stringer being a similar type to McCartin I'd take Boyd.

 

[ManOfClay]

I'd be interested to hear what Dogs fans think they would have done if they had pick 1 this year? Do you think you still would given up as much for Boyd or would you have taken McCartin as a cheaper option while still trading Griffen to GWS?

E: By "this year" I mean 2014.

If we had pick 1 this year I'd say we'd have taken McCartin and probably had another couple of top 10 picks for Griffen. Moot point because we didn't have pick 1, we had pick 6.

As for the cost debate, and ignoring the ramblings of a mentally deficient carlton supporter who I'm not going to name, our list management team has clearly thought out how to play around with our salary cap. We've lost about 800 games of experience, and with that a fair bit of the salary cap. Bontempelli, Macrae, Stringer and Liberatore are all signed up on long term deals, albeit not as long as Boyd, and we have the ability to pay over the cap if need be.

Talent wise though, I'd still pay a premium for Boyd as a much safer bet. McCartin has a lot more doubts over his head sadly out of his control - if I was a recruiter of any club not desperate for a key forward and with the first pick I'd have gone Petracca purely because of McCartin's health issues. If it affects his ability to train and play at the elite level constantly then he's in a pickle. There have already been observations about his weight and body shape which some think could be due to his health.

You are right in saying the cost debate isn't what this thread is about though. It's purely a talent vs talent thing.

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

For me the McCartin v Boyd debate comes down to their cost. If i was picking teams in the schoolyard then I'd probably take Boyd, but if I had to give up what the Dogs gave up for Boyd then I'd take McCartin. I know the whole cost thing isn't really what this thread is about, but I find it pretty hard to over look.

I'd be interested to hear what Dogs fans think they would have done if they had pick 1 this year? Do you think you still would given up as much for Boyd or would you have taken McCartin as a cheaper option while still trading Griffen to GWS?

E: By "this year" I mean 2014.

I'm not too concerned about the cost - the list is stacked with youth who will all earn their fair share at various stages early in their career.

Assuming we had Pick 1 to bargain with, a far more valuable commodity than pick 6, we could go one of two ways. Keep 1 and use it on Paddy, and trade Griff for 7, apparently the only pick they'd have handed over (let's say we use it on someone like Duggan rather than Wright, seeing as we've already got the tall we want) and presumably a far-from-untouchable Giant like Buntine.

Alternatively, seeing as GWS were keen to land Pick 1, we package it up with Griffen for Boyd & 7, and select someone like Duggan anyway. It comes down to Boyd & Duggan vs McCartin, Duggan and Buntine (or some other ordinary player - Tomas Bugg, if you like) - knowing that we'd be paying so much more for Boyd.

It depends on which player you rate as the better prospect, I suppose. I'm happier to have spent the money on Boyd because we're not exactly pushing the salary cap limit (far from it, in fact), I believe he's the better prospect, and we're re-uniting him with all his mates - Macrae, Bontempelli, Hrovat, Honeychurch in particular. We do have forwards that complement him, too - Stringer is of a similar height to McCartin.

 

[Periphery]

Good replies.

I do agree that Boyd was the best option for the Dogs situation and that it is worth the risk. Like all these things we will have to wait 10+ years to really find out what would have been the best decision.

I find it interesting that you guys are comparing Stringer to McCartin in your team set up. I always assumed Stringer would ideally be that 3rd tall that can rotate through the middle in bursts.

McCartin's health issues. If it affects his ability to train and play at the elite level constantly then he's in a pickle. There have already been observations about his weight and body shape which some think could be due to his health.

Without wanting to derail the thread any more: I think this is very overblown and shouldn't be an issue. He's already shown an ability to cut weight and has been playing high level footy for years while managing his diabetes.

 

[ManOfClay]

I find it interesting that you guys are comparing Stringer to McCartin in your team set up. I always assumed Stringer would ideally be that 3rd tall that can rotate through the middle in bursts.

He's only a centimetre or two shorter than McCartin, if that. Ideally now he is a third tall but is more than capable of being a second one too. During the last nine games of 2014 while Jones rotted away in the VFL Stringer was really the man in our forwardline along with crameri. Jake kicked 22 goals in those nine games.

He'll rotate into the midfield in the future but for now he's definitely a forward. And there is some talk he's grown to around the 195cm mark anyway but that's all speculation based on him standing next to 200cm Jordan Roughead at our new logo launch.

 

[Dogsman16]

Good replies.

I do agree that Boyd was the best option for the Dogs situation and that it is worth the risk. Like all these things we will have to wait 10+ years to really find out what would have been the best decision.

I find it interesting that you guys are comparing Stringer to McCartin in your team set up. I always assumed Stringer would ideally be that 3rd tall that can rotate through the middle in bursts.



Without wanting to derail the thread any more: I think this is very overblown and shouldn't be an issue. He's already shown an ability to cut weight and has been playing high level footy for years while managing his diabetes.

At this stage Stringer doesn't have the endurance to play much if any time in the midfield so at this stage he plays forward and preferably deep forward due to his aerial and ground ability. Stringer is strong enough to play 2nd tall not to mention he draws the football like a genuine tall despite his ground level ability. I'm still 50/50 as to whether we keep him forward for the duration of his career or play him midfield.

 

[Turbocat]

Early call or what. Just on the Cats players Lang has played 1/2 of footy , and of course Cockatoo has played that little even in the leadup. Do you think we can wait till most of the players have 20-40 games to base our judgement on?

 

[ManOfClay]

Option A - Boyd, headaches come trade time and future worries in retaining players with limited salary cap, loosing Griffen in negotiation

Back to this, just to hammer it home, Griffen was leaving even before we entered negotiations about Boyd. Us getting Boyd was in no way responsible for us losing Griffen.

Do you understand?

 

[gillo94]

Back to this, just to hammer it home, Griffen was leaving even before we entered negotiations about Boyd. Us getting Boyd was in no way responsible for us losing Griffen.

Do you understand?

Learn to read!
My point is loosing Griffen full stop is not a good thing, Captain, AA, B&F

Not a good look, not to mention the rediculous and irresponsible contract given to Boyd. Really concerning what Bulldogs did

 

[ManOfClay]

Learn to read!
My point is loosing Griffen full stop is not a good thing, Captain, AA, B&F

Not a good look, not to mention the rediculous and irresponsible contract given to Boyd. Really concerning what Bulldogs did

I can read very well, thanks. It wasn't clear when you were talking about Boyd and the negative ramifications of signing him like we did then just randomly bringing in Griffen to it and talking about us losing him in negotiation (sic). For the record, it's "ridiculous" and "losing". Thankfully I can read quite well, because your writing is only shadowed by your general ability to analyse football.

I'm not worried that you are concerned about what we did regarding Boyd at all. If anything, it's evidence we did the right thing.

 

[Asgardian]

There's some really good Doggy juniors coming through, but not for 2015 I reckon

 

[joop]

2013 v 2014 > my pref

1 - Boyd v McCartin > Boyd
2 - Kelly v Petracca > Kelly
3 - Billings v Brayshaw > Billings
4 - Bontempelli v Pickett > Bonts
5 - Kolodashnij v De Goey > KK
6 - Sharenberg v Marchbank > CMB
7 - Aish v Ahern > Aish
8 - McDonald v Wright > McDonald
9 - Salem v Moore > Moore
10 - Freeman v Cockatoo > Cockatoo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
11 - Sheed v Duggan > Duggan
12 - Lennon v Ellis > Lennon
13 - Cripps v Weller > Weller
14 - McCarthy v Lever > Lever
15 - Jones v Garlett > Garlett
16 - Lang v Durdin > Durdin
17 - Apeness v Langford > Apeness
18 - Dunstan v Heeney > Heeney
19 - Acres v Boekhorst > Acres
20 - Leslie v Laverde > Laverde
21 - Impey v Goddard > Goddard

Genuinely surprised at how many people would have Brayshaw over Billings.

 

[The Bomb]

1 - Boyd v McCartin > ???? because Boyd showed F all in his 1st year
2 - Kelly v Petracca > Petracca
3 - Billings v Brayshaw > Brayshaw
4 - Bontempelli v Pickett > Pickett as a smokey, can play some amazing footy.
5 - Kolodashnij v De Goey > KK
6 - Sharenberg v Marchbank > Sharenberg
7 - Aish v Ahern > Aish
8 - McDonald v Wright > ???
9 - Salem v Moore > Salem
10 - Freeman v Cockatoo > Cockatoo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
11 - Sheed v Duggan > Duggan
12 - Lennon v Ellis > Ellis
13 - Cripps v Weller > Cripps
14 - McCarthy v Lever > Lever
15 - Jones v Garlett > Garlett
16 - Lang v Durdin > Durdin
17 - Apeness v Langford > Langford
18 - Dunstan v Heeney > Heeney
19 - Acres v Boekhorst > Acres
20 - Leslie v Laverde > Laverde
21 - Impey v Goddard > Blakey or Caleb Daniels

 

[Moist Biscuit]

To be fair the dogs did over pay for Boyd, could have offered him the same deal in 12 months time, got an early pick for Griffen and pick up say Peter Wright and Caleb Marchbank. But Boyd is rated higher then McCartin for a good reason. If the Saints could have traded pick 1 for Boyd then they would have. If McCartin is as highly rated as some believe, then why were St Kilda fielding offers for pick 1?

 

[aussierulesrules]

If McCartin is as highly rated as some believe, then why were St Kilda fielding offers for pick 1?

To see if someone would offer us the "mother-load", something that was just too good to knock back. They didn't, so we kept it, grabbed Paddy and walked away happy.

 

[joop]

To be fair the dogs did over pay for Boyd, could have offered him the same deal in 12 months time, got an early pick for Griffen and pick up say Peter Wright and Caleb Marchbank. But Boyd is rated higher then McCartin for a good reason. If the Saints could have traded pick 1 for Boyd then they would have. If McCartin is as highly rated as some believe, then why were St Kilda fielding offers for pick 1?

Because as every other year, the club sees what clubs will offer for pick 1. But the club obviously rated McCartin higher than anything anyone offered.

 

[Apex Predators]

To be fair the dogs did over pay for Boyd, could have offered him the same deal in 12 months time, got an early pick for Griffen and pick up say Peter Wright and Caleb Marchbank. But Boyd is rated higher then McCartin for a good reason. If the Saints could have traded pick 1 for Boyd then they would have. If McCartin is as highly rated as some believe, then why were St Kilda fielding offers for pick 1?

St Kilda were offered picks 4 and 7 by GWS. With the players on offer in this draft pool, it seems that St Kilda rated McCartin pretty highly.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/st-kil...d-back-two-for-pick-no-1-20141018-1186e5.html

 

[Dogsman16]

St Kilda were offered picks 4 and 7 by GWS. With the players on offer in this draft pool, it seems that St Kilda rated McCartin pretty highly.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/st-kil...d-back-two-for-pick-no-1-20141018-1186e5.html

Think they also offered GWS picks 1 and 21 for Boyd which netted them McCartin and Goddard. Think in hindsight they did well not to get Boyd (as good as I think he will be) as McCartin and Goddard has given them a bookend at each end. Think both clubs came out winners to be honest.

 

[TedDougChris]

St Kilda were offered picks 4 and 7 by GWS. With the players on offer in this draft pool, it seems that St Kilda rated McCartin pretty highly.
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/st-kil...d-back-two-for-pick-no-1-20141018-1186e5.html

Don't blame them, McCartin looks like a very good prospect. He'll also learn from one of the best exponents of the hard working KPF the game has seen. If he can develop the same work ethic, he'll get the absolute most from his career.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Yep, we knew that we could for instance get Wright and then one of Pickett, De Goey, Ahern, Weller, etc. with the other pick, but thought it was preferable to get just one of McCartin, Petracca or Brayshaw, so I think that says a fair bit about how we rated those top 3 compared to the rest.

 

[Dogsman16]

Yep, we knew that we could for instance get Wright and then one of Pickett, De Goey, Ahern, Weller, etc. with the other pick, but thought it was preferable to get just one of McCartin, Petracca or Brayshaw, so I think that says a fair bit about how we rated those top 3 compared to the rest.

4 and 7 must have been very tempting though! Would have been a pretty agonising decision.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Don't blame them, McCartin looks like a very good prospect. He'll also learn from one of the best exponents of the hard working KPF the game has seen. If he can develop the same work ethic, he'll get the absolute most from his career.

Given all we've heard about him leading up to the draft, with regards to how dedicated he's had to be to play footy with diabetes and all we've heard since, like in this article below on him from a couple of months ago (which talked about how he got his skinfolds down from around 80 to 64, between the season ending and the draft- when others might have been putting their feet up), I expect he'll do everything necessary to get the best out of himself and having Roo there to show him the way ought to only help him with that:

"When his season finished in September, McCartin turned to Geelong Falcons strength and conditioning chief Matt Critchley to steel himself physically and mentally for the demands of the AFL. So, in the Falcons’ Highton gym, Critchley put McCartin through an hour-and-a-half of hell, three times a week in the lead-up to the national draft.

And not once, over the two months of “super high intensity workouts”, did the prized goalkicker complain, or ask for a break.

“You could sell tickets to the workouts, they were that intense,” Critchley said. “We would box for 90 minutes-plus and in that time he might only be resting for four or five minutes, for the whole session.

“He (McCartin) is everything-you-have, every time kind of trainer.”

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/af...er-with-st-kilda/story-e6frf7jo-1227138744567

 

[aussierulesrules]

4 and 7 must have been very tempting though! Would have been a pretty agonising decision.

The mail (and it's also been mentioned a couple of times since in the media now as well) was also that it was 1 and 21 for 4 and 7, so I don't think we had to think that much about it if that was the case. Given that I kept on hearing that we didn't rate Wright nearly as highly as Paddy, I think it's pretty safe to say that we would now be incredibly happy that we didn't do that deal, especially since I believe we rated Goddard a lot higher than 21 and thought it was ridiculous that he was still available there.

 

[Dogsman16]

The mail (and it's also been mentioned a couple of times since in the media now as well) was also that it was 1 and 21 for 4 and 7, so I don't think we had to think that much about it if that was the case. Given that I kept on hearing that we didn't rate Wright nearly as highly as Paddy, I think it's pretty safe to say that we would now be incredibly happy that we didn't do that deal, especially since I believe we rated Goddard a lot higher than 21 and thought it was ridiculous that he was still available there.

Worked out bloody well for the saints. Could have used 4 and 7 on Wright and Goddard (brilliant effort to get him at 21) but instead got McCartin whom I believe is going to be a better forward than Wright. Would have been a tough call particularly not knowing where Goddard was going to fall but turned out well. I think the saints were big winners come draft night.