First handful of posts are quite reasonable. It looks like it may be a reasonable discussion, then the loons start to circle.
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BringBackTorps
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In S. Hill's Foxtel comments above, where he refers to the AFLW as "a suburban giggle-fest", ponders the glories of women's soccer, is amazed that anyone might think that S.Kerr might one day wish to return to the AFLW, & generally laments the lack of awareness of Australia's sporting knowledge re soccer, he demonstrates his own prejudice/ignorance.
His arguments (& his lack of awareness) are demolished by 6 uncomfortable facts:-
. Australia's international rating, at Socceroo level & jnr. levels, has plummetted over the last 10 years. The Socceroos were saved by a 38 y.o. Cahill against civil-war ravaged, wrecked Syria.
. Prior to the Rio Olympics in May 2016, Aust.'s "world class" star-filled Matildas' soccer team was thrashed by an U15 Newcastle Jets boys' team 7-0 in a practice match
. S.Kerr was a jnr. AF player. She then switched to soccer, & made the adult women's national soccer team, as a 15 y.o., within c.6 mnths -Matildas' high skill standards...not.
.On the Daily Football (soccer) Show podcast in Feb.2017, former Matildas' captain, M. Barbieri said, paraphrasing,"...many female soccer players love AF, its an Australian game...". (I will track down the exact quote, which was on the BF Thread comparing codes in Feb.2017).
. the AFLW, in its first year, smashed the W League in attendances (particularly when the W league was not playing as an intro. for an A league double-header); & ratings.
. This season, A League crowds & ratings, when they have clear air prior to the Test cricket, have generally been embarrassing.
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And you have shown yourself as a fool. That means bugger all. Basically, you are telling me a bunch of males can beat a bunch of females. SHOCK HORROR!!!!!! Never ever ever compare women's playing standard to men playing standard. They are different sports (etc: played wildly differently at the core of its game)
And people can love 2 sports. Geech..........
Also, The Socceroos are Asian Champs, the Matildas are former Asian champs and have always been a solid team. But I guess that isn't part of your narrative. perhaps you should join the wonderful debate on 442. This post would suit some of the posts on that site.
BringBackTorps
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Eh, 7-0 is 7-0!
The Matildas wanted a competitive trial game. Obviously, they believed Newcastle U15 boys would be a reasonable test, otherwise it defeats the whole purpose of a Trial game to prepare themselves for the Olympics. Next time, after this thrashing, they should select a more appropriate opponent for a competitive Trial game - probably an U13 boys' soccer team might be a fair & good contest.
I never compare adult women's games to adult men's games. Obviously, the biological differences are too great .
You have a propensity to run Straw Man arguments. I have never suggested anywhere (nor can I recall anyone on BF) that one can't follow 2 sports -I follow fairly closely 5 sports.
I don't accept the cultural-cringing narrative of many soccer supporters that, because soccer is the biggest international sport, it should be/might one day become, the biggest sport in Australia. I, & most people in Aust,. judge each sport on its merits ie what is it like to play, its skill sets, its culture, its national relevance, & how appealing/exciting is it to watch.
(The ARU has made a similar, terrible "cringing" mistake - thinking that Super Rugby, because it has international teams, would succeed in Aust. RU, at male professional & GR level, has declined significantly in Aust. in the last few years).
Cf. the omnipresent AFL & NRL, & contrary to your & Hill's views, there is very minor interest in Aust. in the Asian Cup & the Matildas.
Since the AFLW (Hill's "a suburban giggle-fest") started in Feb.2017, why have female cricket, netball, soccer, & basketball been granted SIGNIFICANT wage rises? Obviously a rhetorical question, but I would appreciate your insight.
And do you think the AFLW, as it expands to 18 Clubs over the next 8 years, will attract far higher average ratings/crowds; & generate significant increases in female AF regd. nos.?
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- #4,405
f
The fact you mentioned it as if it was relevant, was bad enough. the fact that you said "world class" Matildas team(as in saying that arent world class because of a defeat to a male team) takes the cake. I wonder what you were implying then if it wasn't that.
You sound like one of those idiots who slam the AFLW standard/wages BECAUSE it doesn't compare to a men's game. I normally have to put up with idiots like you in the tennis forum and tennis is light years ahead of any female professional sport. Saying something like you said degrades ALL of women's sport.
as for all the other stuff, i couldnt give a damn atm.
Seriously. You arent comparing man and women's sport
The fact you mentioned it as if it was relevant, was bad enough. the fact that you said "world class" Matildas team(as in saying that arent world class because of a defeat to a male team) takes the cake. I wonder what you were implying then if it wasn't that.
You sound like one of those idiots who slam the AFLW standard/wages BECAUSE it doesn't compare to a men's game. I normally have to put up with idiots like you in the tennis forum and tennis is light years ahead of any female professional sport. Saying something like you said degrades ALL of women's sport.
as for all the other stuff, i couldnt give a damn atm.
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f
Seriously. You arent comparing man and women's sport
The fact you mentioned it as if it was relevant, was bad enough. the fact that you said "world class" Matildas team(as in saying that arent world class because of a defeat to a male team) takes the cake. I wonder what you were implying then if it wasn't that.
You sound like one of those idiots who slam the AFLW standard/wages BECAUSE it doesn't compare to a men's game. I normally have to put up with idiots like you in the tennis forum and tennis is light years ahead of any female professional sport. Saying something like you said degrades ALL of women's sport.
as for all the other stuff, i couldnt give a damn atm.
Anyone with basic logic could see the BBT was merely using that result to challenge the claim that the Matildas are "world class" (presumed based in a particular definition of "world class")...he's got pretty solid form around here as a supporter of women's sport....just as you have pretty undeniable form as just hanging round an australian football forum to attack anyone who points out anything negative about soccer. It's pathetic really.
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- #4,407
can you read the post above? seriously, go troll somewhere else.
I repeat what I said once more. Using a result against a man's team to state that they(Matildas) aren't world class in women's soccer makes you fool/idiot. I would even say sexist. Doing so demeans all of women's sport and that is something I wont stand for. It's like saying Serena isn't world class because she couldn't beat the world 300 odd. Results against the men mean bugger all as they don't play against them. Do you fail to see the logic or is your hatred headlights too bright?
No you need to go away now. Your weasel trolling is one thing but now you are calling respected posters fools / idiots and trying to twist their arguments to call them sexist.
BBT can clarify but I read his point as the difference between mens and womens soccer is so enormous that the use of the term "world class" is a bit much. Apparently the best player in the world was playing football into her teens
Again, it's really really sad that you spend so much time hanging around here like you do but I think calling people fools, idiots and sexist should seriously see you go away for a bit until you calm down...at least from the the Australian football related forums. I got suspended for far less
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- #4,409
Yes, that makes it so much better. So basically, most(if not all) of women's sports cant be called world class because they lost to an under 15 men's team. Do u see the issue which is wrong with this thinking. Serena lost to the 200th ranked player. Court lost to Bobby Riggs. The women 100M runners cant break 10.5 sec. They all arent world class according to that line...
Do you even know anything about the match? most of the goals came from crosses where the taller males were physically too strong or big for the women. Even teenagers can do that, especially if the women don't train as much for it. That gap will never be broken. It is best to compare World Class women athletes with World Class women athletes and never to men. And if you do, then never to demean the female athletes. They don't play a mans game, they play a woman's game. The Matildas are ranked 6th in the world in the female game. That makes them world class. Full Stop
We all say stupid stuff we regret. It is hard to say that you are wrong. I can't stand that type of thinking and I have near zero opinion of people who think it. Yes, I got angry but I don't regret it. I have over 4K posts on this forum, the majority of those are on the tennis forum. The majority of those are talking about the WTA. I will always stick up for women's sport.
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US women's team have lost a number of times to youth teams. Hard to say it means they are not world class.
The fact they were beaten is in fact why they play them. Top 15 year old male players are usually pretty mature for age, and would be faster and more athletic than the women.
Top women's team in the world gets to play a game where the oppositions speed and athleticism has them under constant pressure, it's an ideal training activity.
Like top female boxers almost always spar against men.
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but it wasn't even a national U15s boys team, it was a team from a regional city, I can tell you that that result raised eye brows with serious soccer fans
BringBackTorps
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7-0 is 7-0.f
Seriously. You arent comparing man and women's sport
The fact you mentioned it as if it was relevant, was bad enough. the fact that you said "world class" Matildas team(as in saying that arent world class because of a defeat to a male team) takes the cake. I wonder what you were implying then if it wasn't that.
You sound like one of those idiots who slam the AFLW standard/wages BECAUSE it doesn't compare to a men's game. I normally have to put up with idiots like you in the tennis forum and tennis is light years ahead of any female professional sport. Saying something like you said degrades ALL of women's sport.
as for all the other stuff, i couldnt give a damn atm.
I compared very experienced professional adult female international (many playing in the USA, world's best female soccer league) soccer players to amateur, inexp. minor team 14 y.o BOYS -& skill levels of 14 y.o. boys. Boys are obviously NOT men! Female players, in some circs., with proper training etc., can possibly have equal or better skills than boys or men.
Of course, the Matildas are world class professional soccer players, when they play women -I never said they were not. I was sarcastically referencing the derogatory/incorrect claims often made by local soccer supporters who claim Aust. soccer is a "world class sport" -but AF is inherently inferior because it is "only a domestic game", primarily played only in Aust.
Stop responding with erroneous & irrelevant Straw Man arguments. Your claims about my AFLW BF comments, in your 3rd paragraph above, are also false. I enjoy watching women's sport.
I assume, as you have not responded to most of my points in posts #4402 & #4404 above, you agree with these points.
I still await your response to my last 2 questions to you in # 4404
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I was playing devils advocate because I certainly don't think BBT was intending to be sexist, which was the implied accusation. It was just a troll being opportunistic
The concept of "world class" is clearly subjective. Does it require the sport to have a certain magnitude across the world or does it rate to the "eliteness" in a way that is abstracted from spread of participation?
Are the diamonds "world class"? They are clearly far, far more elite than the Matildas. Do you think the opals wouldn't comfortably beat a regional under 15s boys basketball team?
The US women's team have comprehensively dominated women's soccer for decades but the men's team are certainly not world class with more participants and resources
Are the top AFL players world class?
Serena Williams is world class. She wouldn't lose to the local Newcastle under 15s boys champion. He would probably struggle to take a point of her. This is the point, though I'm sure a lot of threatened male soccer fans like to use it as a basis to dismiss women's soccer (similar types behave similarly in relation to men's football), it is certainly a valid reference point for how "elite" women's soccer is relative to other women's sport that have had access to decades of elite development.
Anyway, your problem is you trained in on that and characterised it as sexist when it clearly wasn't. BBT spends as much time talking about women's australian football as anything around here. You also called him an idiot and a fool
I'm sure you spend most your time on the tennis sub-forum but I don't go there so I only see your work nearly invariably acting as a soccer apologist and often getting abusive towards football fans just sticking up for their own code on a football forum. Perhaps you need to stay around the tennis and soccer forums that Big Footy benevolently offers you until you anger abates
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- #4,415
It's not about the skills, it's about the athletic differences. That is why it is useless to compare. I like watching women's (soccer). It is more "pure", without some of the slights which affect the men's game with a slower tempo, more attacking and some great skills on offer. It is a different game. As mentioned before the men used their athleticism to dominate the girl in the box. a weakness which is due to sex and not talent. The girls were as skilled, or even more skilled as the boys.
One of my fav players 5-10 years ago was Collette Mccallum. Her set pieces were some of the best I have ever seen(men and female). She didn't have the power of the men of course, but she was just wonderful with her accuracy and success rate. But against an under 15 male, she would lack speed, strength and height. she would be killed. she was 1.65m and never the quickest on the field
We should also remember this was a training exercise for the girls, not an actual match if you get your drift.
that sounds so much better and not a point i really disagree with.
Don't go all Noob on me with the Straw Man crap(btw, Noob stop trying to gett me banned and try to ignore me if you think i am a troll. I am not responding to your post(s) below)
For me, anyone who compares female/male sport and then uses that to demean women's sport is an idiot. As mentioned a thousand times, they are different games. I said you sounded like, not that you are. I am sure we both agree that people who use the above line(etc: idiots who slam the AFLW standard/wages BECAUSE it doesn't compare to a men's game) lose the point of women's sport or AFLW.
I cant remember the points nor do I care. It was something about football v football. I just put my thoughts on AFLW instead and hope it answers a part it.
I wasn't a lover of AFLW. I actually thought the AFL rushed it and it needed more of a sound footing when it first started. I was wrong. I think the average standard is v.poor from little I watched. But the stars in the game are stars. They just need more of them. If in 15 years time, if they are the standard, then AFLW will become an amazingly skilful game (hopefully). But this wasn't the point of AFLW. It is getting all these women who couldn't play the game they loved a chance to do so. To give girls (and boys) heroes and, in a very AFL way, build the top to help the bottom of the game(this normally fails and the bottom is normally on deaths door but seems to have worked in this case). They poured jet fuel on the spark and it caught alight. It's good for women's sport overall.
I don't like the narrative that the AFL found womens sport or the fact they all but caused the wage increases. This trend has been happening worldwide. Look at the WWE(not a sport but it is in a way) or UFC. Cricket at Lords was a sell-out. The recent Euro Champs women's soccer tournament had sold out crowds.
For me, Cricket is the first to have a fully domestic (Aus) pro team and was the first to have a domestic women's league to really showcase what women's sport is becoming. Don't get me wrong, competition is the main cause for wage increases and the AFLW is a big part of that. I have been critical of the FFA for neglecting the W-league and even the Matildas for so long. They have been so good for so long and only now are we hearing about it. They are really good now despite the FFA and I looked forward to them taking on the world in a couple of years time.
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The only narrative of the AFL `finding` womens sport comes from people critical of the AFL. Never heard it said by, or even implied by anyone involved with the AFL or AFLW. What the AFL did differently is promote their female competition, and if other sports noses are out of joint about it, they had many years to do the same before the AFL got involved.
The rise in womens pay has certainly not started because of the AFL, but I think its indisputable the AFL has accelerated it hugely. There is an analysis of this somewhere if I can find it. It took the FFA 10 years to get to a minimum of $0, and an average of about $3000 (mostly to overseas or Matildas players). You think that doubling the salary cap and introducing a $10K minimum the year after the AFLW started is a coincidence?
The AFLW has done something that is going to put upward pressure on pay for all other elite female team sports, and that is sucking up large numbers of sportswomen in a semi pro capacity. By doing this, they extended the codewars to the realm of womens sport, which will ultimately be to the benefit of all womens sport.
The AFL needs to find another 180 players over the next 3 years, just for the already planned expansion. Allow for the list to go to 35 or so, and thats another 70. Allow 5 players per list turnover each year, and they will be churning through another 70 a year by 2020. Other sports are responding because they feel they have to, even while saying they do not think the AFLW is a threat.
Looking at the Melbourne financials, they spent $700K on their womens team, which, if it made a loss, was a small one, and it quite possibly made a profit (hard to be sure, they were light on details).
My prediction for the future is, Gil is going to try to do a Ronald Raegan to the FFAs evil empire. The pay and conditions for the AFLW are going to be ramped up as much as the AFL thinks it can possibly be, and watch chaos break out behind them as other sports have to decide how to respond.
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- #4,417
more implying the media. I think it feels stark because womens football is relatively new and it started out big. it went from 0 to 100 in 3 years . Crickets WBBL didn't sound so "patronising" because it was around for way longer before WBBL started.
But this was interesting. If these roles were reversed, then people would be saying that AR is an easy sport to diss, they talked big and constant big-noting frankly just tires me, they talked rudely and is really a 'business plan' not a league or true national team. that Its hard to passionately support the Socceroos(insert AFL) when you are constantly and triumphantly told that you are also supporting the death of football.
Those are direct copy and pastes from the previous couple of pages made about the FFA.........
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It is a business plan, because it is a business.
For a business in competition with rivals, the best strategy is to ignore them, and just run your business the best way you can.
A business that is sitting down to make a plan to screw it's rivals is lost.
If McDonalds has an effective strategy to identify key locations and get there quickly, then to HJs it may look like they are out to get them, but it's just Macca's running their business.
I misspoke when I mentioned AFL having a strategy against other women's sport. My words, not theirs. I think the effect will be the same, but it implied an intent that I do not think is there.
It makes sense for the AFL to make the AFLW a high profile sport of choice for women, and pushing pay will be part of that.
This will challenge and even hurt other sports, but isn't why they are doing it. Its Gil's job to protect and grow footy, not protect and grow other sports.
My objection to soccer is that based on commentary, both from supporters and officials, it appears they do sit down to plan against other sports, and actively long for the day they can **** them up.
Maybe it's not real, but it's a strong impression they give.
I would note that I considered Foster a footy hater, and he spoke like it, but hasn't for a long time. I think he realised soccer needs footy fans to also support soccer for the sport to grow, so code wars talk that pisses of footy fans hurts soccer a lot more than it hurts footy. Something Hill et al need to learn.
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This. In the sad frustration that a lot of supporters of other codes (one in particular) succumbed to in response to amazing success of the aflw, that "narrative" emerged that the afl was claiming to have "invented women's sport". Nobody in involved in the game ever made any such claim
But what about other sports? In terms of Australian women's team sports you could imagine netball or even hockey or basketball laying claim to being the original pioneers in women's elite team sport. But I can't recall them making such claims either, perhaps out of respect for each other
But which sports' key personalities have made such a claim?
http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/blog/2017/05/03/grand-final-should-kick-start-change-we-need
"Our women’s game, so proudly the flagbearer for all women’s sport, faces major challenges as momentum wanes."
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i really hope Foster writes something really critical in the next couple of months, just to see you go off your head.
this is actually sad. An article from May this year, and you are using one line from on a topic not really addressing womens sport.
Yes it is, sad. It's a precise example of a key Australian soccer personality making precisely the kind of ridiculous claim that you claimed the afl media had made.
It's an embarrassing statement by foster that you won't find a parallel among afl writers, but yet we still get really pathetic soccer trolls asserting that the afl makes claims to "finding women's sport".
If you really get your kicks out people losing their shyt at real or imagined slights, spend more time at the World game or fourfourtwo! Leave this forum to people who actually like our game
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- #4,422
you really are clutching at straws. It is a sentence, not a statement nor a narrative. I am sure you could find some actual dirt somewhere as it is Foster. I don't really care. He can think what he thinks. it is Foster. If you think I am being hypocritical, then so be it. I have explained why I thought the AFL (media) finding women's AR was "patronising" and the possible reasons why I thought it occurred. It is just my thoughts on it and I am sure a lot of people disagree which i accept.
I considered it case closed before you, while not quoting me, surely directed your answer to me with a long pole. Once again, you cant leave things alone
For a "sokker troll", i am quite poor at it. I have more posts in the AFL section than the soccer section for example. I normally respond to other people statements and don't try to start stuff. I don't come on here and say "AFL in SYDNEY ROFL 14K to a final lol" as soon as that happened. (ps that is an extreme EXAMPLE). And I rarely call people names unless angered(something you love to give me). That would be trolling.
Having a different opinion on things is not trolling. Once more, if you think I am trolling, then do what I did to you for a long time, and ignore me. Report my posts. because you calling me(and others) cultural cringers, trolls and all your backhand crap which we get from you is getting old, fast, once more. From now on, I will TRY to ignore YOU once more and report any insults you love to give me. I will listen to my own advice. It will give this forum some peace as I am sure everyone else is sick of us going at it. I enjoy the tennis forum too much and I don't want to this to escalate any more.
I enjoy this section of the forum because I have a close interest in these things and other posters on this forum post good and interesting data.It is why I am here. Good enough for ya!!!!!!
BringBackTorps
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Quote from an oddly inconsitent/confused/hypocritical B. Mori, above Post #4415:
"I wasn't a lover of AFLW. (Who would have suspected!). I actually thought the AFL rushed it and it needed more of a sound footing when it first started. (Women's AF has been played continuously by the VWFL since 1981; Women started in 1915!). I was wrong. (Credit for your admission). I think the average STANDARD IS V.POOR from LITTLE (Wow!) I watched".
A detestable COMPARISON with the MEN'S standard...hilarious!
Where have you criticised all the commentators from other codes who made derogatory AFLW comparisons with men's AFL? If not, why not? Faux outrage?
"I wasn't a lover of AFLW. (Who would have suspected!). I actually thought the AFL rushed it and it needed more of a sound footing when it first started. (Women's AF has been played continuously by the VWFL since 1981; Women started in 1915!). I was wrong. (Credit for your admission). I think the average STANDARD IS V.POOR from LITTLE (Wow!) I watched".
A detestable COMPARISON with the MEN'S standard...hilarious!
Where have you criticised all the commentators from other codes who made derogatory AFLW comparisons with men's AFL? If not, why not? Faux outrage?
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There is plenty of gender based criticism of AFLW to be rejected. This does not make the AFLW above criticism. Criticism of absolute performance is both valid and necessary. Freo coach Cowan said AFLW disposal efficiency was low 50s, which is not good enough.
Saying AFLW performance was not good is valid, it's saying this is inherently because the players are female, not because of a lack of experience/high level training/depth etc.
This is a straight comment on absolute quality, without reference to the men's game at all. Also acknowledges the quality of the top end talent and prospects for the future when the top end deepens.
Thought it a reasonable comment.
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errr....I didnt compare it to the mens.
AFLW is still very young and i watch a lot of womens sport. I think it can be way better. For example, my next line was
If anything, it is a comparison with other womens sport and what is to come in the future. It is comparing the average AFLW player with the best and seeing the massive gap between the 2.
Not once did i mention that AFLW team would lose to an under 14 regional side and then USE that as a way to deman the women and the league. Do you see the difference between the two?
The simple fact of this is that we have heard a lot of from current players playing AFLW say that they couldn't continue to play AR because there was nowhere for them to play. Even now, the footing of AR for women in my state is very very shaky(or in other words, poorly run) to use an example. the RL are going the slow route for example and trying to build from the bottom. But i already said that the AFL was correct with the steps it took regarding the founding of AFLW and women in the game.
EDIT: I will state again that i dont care much for womens/men comparisons when they dont play each other. Please read the above when i do compare as an example of someone doing it and not an attack on the AFLW by me.
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