Fantasy 2021 - EMPIRE League - Discussion

[A11dAtP0w3R]

When you next chat with this bloke bgp, remind him to increase his asking price if he wants to be like BePeeGee...

My bad. I'll try again, on what is Tua currently worth.

You used a late first on him last year (value increase of 3.5x)

played like absolute shit and looks a bust (meaningless)

Won't ever use him as you have Mahomes (meaningless)

future picks worth less than current picks

Therefore, I'm pretty sure Tua is worth:

2 x 2022 1sts, 1 x 2022 2nd, 1 x 2023 1st and 2nd and a 2024 1st

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Except I didn't take Davis Mills ahead of any of those players? Or are you not talking about the Empire draft?

Beta draft.

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

My bad. I'll try again, on what is Tua currently worth.

You used a late first on him last year (value increase of 3.5x)

played like absolute sh*t and looks a bust (meaningless)

Won't ever use him as you have Mahomes (meaningless)

future picks worth less than current picks

Therefore, I'm pretty sure Tua is worth:

2 x 2022 1sts, 1 x 2022 2nd, 1 x 2023 1st and 2nd and a 2024 1st

Nope, ask GG about it, I didn't ask for anything like that for Tua.

Plus picks 3 seasons away hardly count as value, league (or me) could be dead that far down the track.

And in terms of using Tua, I did last year and will probably have to again this year, given Wentz injury history and bye week timings.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Nope, ask GG about it, I didn't ask for anything like that for Tua.

Plus picks 3 seasons away hardly count as value, league (or me) could be dead that far down the track.

And in terms of using Tua, I did last year and will probably have to again this year, given Wentz injury history and bye week timings.

Probably better off taking the doughnut than risking starting him for a negative score.

If GG was asking me for Tua, firstly I'd laugh and ask why, and then I'd sell him off for loss on last years pick no hesitation at all before he has a chance to drive any value remaining down to zero.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Very similar situation to Rosen with me in Jailhouse after his rookie year for Arizona, my gut told me to get out while I could so I asked around if anyone was interested, people offered less than my initial pick spent after only one year so held hoping he'd recover some value. Nek minnut: I cut him and been on waivers since.

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

Probably better off taking the doughnut than risking starting him for a negative score.

If GG was asking me for Tua, firstly I'd laugh and ask why, and then I'd sell him off for loss on last years pick no hesitation at all before he has a chance to drive any value remaining down to zero.

Probably better off taking the doughnut than risking starting him for a negative score.

If GG was asking me for Tua, firstly I'd laugh and ask why, and then I'd sell him off for loss on last years pick no hesitation at all before he has a chance to drive any value remaining down to zero.

Understand the approach, but to be clear my price for any player never, ever turns on what pick I might have taken them at.

Generally I base my trade value in Empire on a combination of the player's contract value and length, how many points I think they will generate in the rest of the season, and the other similar players available in free agency/waivers. Then I add an adjustment (sometimes up, sometimes down) to reflect the needs of the team trying to acquire the player.

If there are no starting QBs on the waiver wire, and old mate making the trade approach has a QB corps of Luck, Rivers and RGIII, plus salary cap space of $87,000 left out of $90mil, then sorry, but I am gonna ask for extra value. Conversely if it is a bog average WR I may well go for a below value offer.

Have a look at the trade history over the years in Empire, including in the seasons before you were in the comp, and I think you'll see I have a fairly balanced approach, despite the narrative you have been working on.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Understand the approach, but to be clear my price for any player never, ever turns on what pick I might have taken them at.

Generally I base my trade value in Empire on a combination of the player's contract value and length, how many points I think they will generate in the rest of the season, and the other similar players available in free agency/waivers. Then I add an adjustment (sometimes up, sometimes down) to reflect the needs of the team trying to acquire the player.

If there are no starting QBs on the waiver wire, and old mate making the trade approach has a QB corps of Luck, Rivers and RGIII, plus salary cap space of $87,000 left out of $90mil, then sorry, but I am gonna ask for extra value. Conversely if it is a bog average WR I may well go for a below value offer.

Have a look at the trade history over the years in Empire, including in the seasons before you were in the comp, and I think you'll see a fairly balanced approach, despite the narrative you have been working on.

The first for Foles did tilt me hard cause I thought I was being very generous with an opening offer of a second and its the only thing I have to go off.

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

The first for Foles did tilt me hard cause I thought I was being very generous with an opening offer of a second and its the only thing I have to go off.

Sure, I get it was above what you expected, but you were in pretty dire need of a starting QB, nothing looked available on waivers and you (as the receiving owner) would have been able to lock him in to a really cheap 5 year contract extension. Each of these things affect the price, plus I did have another competing offer on the table for him.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Sure, I get it was above what you expected, but you were in pretty dire need of a starting QB, nothing looked available on waivers and you (as the receiving owner) would have been able to lock him in to a really cheap 5 year contract extension. Each of these things affect the price, plus I did have another competing offer on the table for him.

It's all good, you're entitled to say no, you don't lose trades at all cause you drive a hard bargain, perhaps that makes you an excellent trader, from my own perspective I'm more than happy to take a few risks to develop good trade relationships throughout the league, rather than be an afterthought to others on players they might have available because I drive a hard bargain. Each to their own though.

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

It's all good, you're entitled to say no, you don't lose trades at all cause you drive a hard bargain, perhaps that makes you an excellent trader, from my own perspective I'm more than happy to take a few risks to develop good trade relationships throughout the league, rather than be an afterthought to others on players they might have available because I drive a hard bargain. Each to their own though.

Not true about me not losing trades, I overpaid Gg for Wentz and then Mack, I gave away a second rounder for John Brown to TGBB, and Dagless and TGBB both smashed me for salary dumps when they knew I was desperate to get under player limits, salary cap or both.

I have won twice (two times, Timmeh) and built a half decent squad mostly through drafting ok, riding the waiver wire like a big wave surfer on a toothpick, and being lucky. Not by being a bastard to trade with.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Not true about me not losing trades, I overpaid Gg for Wentz and then Mack, I gave away a second rounder for John Brown to TGBB, and Dagless and TGBB both smashed me for salary dumps when they knew I was desperate to get under player limits, salary cap or both.

I have won twice (two times, Timmeh) and built a half decent squad mostly through drafting ok, riding the waiver wire like a big wave surfer on a toothpick, and being lucky. Not by being a bastard to trade with.

I think you gave Dagless the business on the pick he used on Sermon, maybe I end up being wrong on that like a lot of other things tho.

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

I think you gave Dagless the business on the pick he used on Sermon, maybe I end up being wrong on that like a lot of other things tho.

I did ok on that trade on the surface, but even there I only just got back one extra second for next year, and I may not be able to get a player in the 2022 draft in the second round that is close to the quality available this year at 1.16. Especially because the seconds next year will both be really late in the round as both Dags and you have strong teams that go deep in the finals.

Also, without breaching Fight Club secrecy, that trade basically was exactly what Dags offered me initally, out of the blue. I made one minor adjustment (asked for 2.13 this year instead of the 2.16 in his original offer, from memory), but didn't muck about or drive a hard bargain.

Make me an offer sometime, you might be surprised.

 

[Exe Gesis]

for the record, the Wentz trade a few years ago, you fleeced me as much as I supposedly fleeced you....

• Mojave Riders gave up Wentz, Carson PHI QB; Wright, K.J. SEA LB; Year 2018 Round 1 Draft Pick from Mojave Riders; Year 2018 Round 2 Draft Pick from Mojave Riders; Year 2019 Round 2 Draft Pick from Mojave Riders; Year 2019 Round 3 Draft Pick from Mojave Riders
• 
  
• BPG Vandals gave up Kessler, Cody CLE QB; Year 2017 Draft Pick 1.01; Year 2017 Draft Pick 1.08; Year 2017 Draft Pick 5.01; Year 2017 Draft Pick 5.02; Year 2017 Draft Pick 6.01

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

for the record, the Wentz trade a few years ago, you fleeced me as much as I supposedly fleeced you....

• Mojave Riders gave up Wentz, Carson PHI QB; Wright, K.J. SEA LB; Year 2018 Round 1 Draft Pick from Mojave Riders; Year 2018 Round 2 Draft Pick from Mojave Riders; Year 2019 Round 2 Draft Pick from Mojave Riders; Year 2019 Round 3 Draft Pick from Mojave Riders
• 
  
• BPG Vandals gave up Kessler, Cody CLE QB; Year 2017 Draft Pick 1.01; Year 2017 Draft Pick 1.08; Year 2017 Draft Pick 5.01; Year 2017 Draft Pick 5.02; Year 2017 Draft Pick 6.01

Dude, you got the historically awesome, gargantuan greatness that is Cody Kessler, you clearly vanquished me on that one...

 

[Exe Gesis]

That was when Wentz was still good.

Tua right now is worth far less than his 1st round status. He's probably worth a mere 2nd standalone pick. That value would change once we see him in the first month of games. Either he explodes, and his value increases. He continues to struggle, holding 2nd-3rd round value. Or he bombs even worse and ends up Rosen-like, untradeable, waiting to be cut instead.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

I did ok on that trade on the surface, but even there I only just got back one extra second for next year, and I may not be able to get a player in the 2022 draft in the second round that is close to the quality available this year at 1.16. Especially because the seconds next year will both be really late in the round as both Dags and you have strong teams that go deep in the finals.

Also, without breaching Fight Club secrecy, that trade basically was exactly what Dags offered me initally, out of the blue. I made one minor adjustment (asked for 2.13 this year instead of the 2.16 in his original offer, from memory), but didn't muck about or drive a hard bargain.

Make me an offer sometime, you might be surprised.

Perhaps your reputation served you well on this instance and that's why Dagless came in with a big offer.

While next year's class might be weaker, the positive being that scouts will have a far easier time identifying talent than this seasons.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

That was when Wentz was still good.

Tua right now is worth far less than his 1st round status. He's probably worth a mere 2nd standalone pick. That value would change once we see him in the first month of games. Either he explodes, and his value increases. He continues to struggle, holding 2nd-3rd round value. Or he bombs even worse and ends up Rosen-like, untradeable, waiting to be cut instead.

Even if Tua "explodes" (which I think is an impossibility given his play style) I dont think his value increases all that much given what we've seen in his rookie year. He played a good game vs the Cards last year then stunk it up the rest of the way home.

He's got far more to lose than he does gain imo.

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

That was when Wentz was still good.

Tua right now is worth far less than his 1st round status. He's probably worth a mere 2nd standalone pick. That value would change once we see him in the first month of games. Either he explodes, and his value increases. He continues to struggle, holding 2nd-3rd round value. Or he bombs even worse and ends up Rosen-like, untradeable, waiting to be cut instead.

Disagree.

If you reckon you can get a guaranteed starting QB for at least the first 6 weeks of the season, at a salary of 500k, from someone else in Empire for a second round pick only, go for it. That is before I even adjust value to take account of the fact that certain teams have no starting QBs on their rosters, and up the price accordingly...

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Dude, you got the historically awesome, gargantuan greatness that is Cody Kessler, you clearly vanquished me on that one...

I don't think that trade was all that terrible. Given , I wouldn't pay that much for a QB but you got a first and two seconds back

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

It is the difference between seeing Tua's objective value as a career player in the NFL (which isn't great) - v - his actual immediate value in Empire for certain teams that have great need at QB.

 

[Exe Gesis]

for the record, the Wentz trade a few years ago, you fleeced me as much as I supposedly fleeced you....

• Mojave Riders gave up Wentz, Carson PHI QB; Wright, K.J. SEA LB; Year 2018 Round 1 Draft Pick from Mojave Riders; Year 2018 Round 2 Draft Pick from Mojave Riders; Year 2019 Round 2 Draft Pick from Mojave Riders; Year 2019 Round 3 Draft Pick from Mojave Riders
• 
  
• BPG Vandals gave up Kessler, Cody CLE QB; Year 2017 Draft Pick 1.01; Year 2017 Draft Pick 1.08; Year 2017 Draft Pick 5.01; Year 2017 Draft Pick 5.02; Year 2017 Draft Pick 6.01

Turned out....

Wentz + Wright + Ronald Jones + Bradley Chubb + Marquise Brown + Rock Ya-Sin
vs
Kessler + Joe Mixon + Zay Jones + Robert Davis (WR) + 5.02 became Devante May at 4.01 after another trade with you + Jordan Willis (DE)

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Disagree.

If you reckon you can get a guaranteed starting QB for at least the first 6 weeks of the season, at a salary of 500k, from someone else in Empire for a second round pick only, go for it. That is before I even adjust value to take account of the fact that certain teams have no starting QBs on their rosters, and up the price accordingly...

GG gave up a QB who started the first 6 weeks last year on 500k for a second and made out like a bandit (Haskins)

 

[Exe Gesis]

Disagree.

If you reckon you can get a guaranteed starting QB for at least the first 6 weeks of the season, at a salary of 500k, from someone else in Empire for a second round pick only, go for it. That is before I even adjust value to take account of the fact that certain teams have no starting QBs on their rosters, and up the price accordingly...

I dont think salary matters all that much tbh. It's more the caliber of the QB with fantasy points. Happy to pay $5m+ for a starting QB. Can always make cap room to fit one in. Tua is more risky, uncertain to send multiple high picks for, due to how shaky he looked, could end up Darnold like. Wonder what the owner of Darnold would find best offer for right now if decided to trade.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Turned out....

Wentz + Wright + Ronald Jones + Bradley Chubb + Marquise Brown + Rock Ya-Sin
vs
Kessler + Joe Mixon + Zay Jones + Robert Davis (WR) + 5.02 became Devante May at 4.01 after another trade with you + Jordan Willis (DE)

Flawless victory, BPG. Give me option 1 any day.

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

Remember too that in Empire, because of roster requirements, cap limits and bye weeks, bog average players are just as vital in getting your team over the line across the whole season as stars.

In the first season that I won Empire, my QBs were the fabulousness that is Brian Hoyer, mixed with starts from awesome Austin Davis. Shitty NFL players, championship winners for me in Empire...