Analysis 2021 trade thread

[dlanod]

If you’re MacPherson, would you accept the trade?

One of the most pathetic clubs trying to get your salary off the books handing you over with a high draft pick to another terrible club. Couldn’t think of anything much more embarrassing to happen to a footballer.

I know players have to agree to the trade but scenarios like this and Witherden's show it's pretty hard to say no.

1. If your primary interest is money, you're still getting paid the same amount.
2. If your primary interest is playing in the AFL, your club has made it clear it can't see you getting senior time there. You're getting a fresh start at a new club.
3. If your primary interest is comfort, in some cases you're ending up at a location you'd rather be long term.

Pretty much the only reason to say no is #3, if you're more at home where you are and/or with your playing group, even if you're not playing seniors.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Doesn’t help Gold Coast’s reputation going forward when they try to lure players there.

A mess.

 

[davemc_lions]

I do think we need help for Oscar, most of the top 8 sides have 1 gen ruck and someone else who can ruck who plays forward.
We did that in 2019/2020 in 2021 we went with Joe as the second ruck. Who while good around the ground gets beaten in the ruck.
Centre square more so, sometimes does not even make a 50/50 against a real ruck
When Hipwood went down we brough Fullarton who was also not really effective in the ruck.
Both tried although not in the same class as other rucks.

Look at Melbourne in the Grand Final.. Having both Gawn and Jackson who both can ruck won them the game.
That passage in the third they opened everything up.
We hope Neale and Lyons can pick off the other rucks hits.. If not then defensively we get cut to pieces with pace against us

Melb Gawn/Jackson
Dogs Martin or Young and English
Cats Stanley with Hawkins forward, Ratugolea and Blicavs
Port Lycett and Ladhams.. with Dixon chopping out
Swans Hickey and McLean
Dons Draper and Wright

With GWS only used Mummy in finals they normally had Flynn or Briggs

 

[David C]

Lloyd's statement is spot on in relation to Brisbane. I could not have said it better. We have many concerns to fix to take the ultimate step but to do little during the Trade Period is not going to fix anything. Putting cheap Band Aids on our issues is stupid. All in All, the Club has poorly managed the cap and it is disappointing. I think Melbourne will win next years premiership already so we need to keep building otherwise our chance will diminish.

Mismanaged the cap? Half the clubs are under cap stress due to covid. Collingwood and Sydney mismanaged the cap. Only thing we could have done was ask the players to take a pay cut like other clubs did.

 

[T Rick]

I used to prefer having one genuine ruck and a pinch hitter but after I saw Big O tire late in games in the back end of the year, namely against eagles, Melbourne and dogs, I think we must play two genuine rucks moving forward more for countering threats like Gawn and Jackson combo come finals. A lot of teams don’t play two rucks so it can be a big point of difference at the end of the year. Fort is also no mug in the forward line. Just as cox is also underrated as a ruck. Both upgrades on Fullerton and that’s what we are after. If hipwood comes back then that’s great. We have a selection headache

Agreed - would be good to get Fort for backup & support for Oscar...the Big O had a fantastic season and gave his heart and soul to the team but he did tire, particularly against the elite rucks in the competition. We also need that insurance on the list in case something happened to take Oscar out of play for an extended period. Oscar can also be a dangerous player when switched forward and having Fort available would assist with that option.
I have never seen Fort play so don't really know anything at all about him other than what I have read on Big Footy but he certainly appeals more than the other options being bandied about.

 

[T Rick]

Mismanaged the cap? Half the clubs are under cap stress due to covid. Collingwood and Sydney mismanaged the cap. Only thing we could have done was ask the players to take a pay cut like other clubs did.

I actually think it is a good thing that we didn't go down the path of asking players to take a pay cut and then compromising the Cap for several years during "pay bacK"...we have taken our medicine and can go forward without that millstone.

 

[Lionwest]

Doesn’t help Gold Coast’s reputation going forward when they try to lure players there.

A mess.

Such a poor look, especially when using the pick allocated by the AFL to facilitate the trade.

 

[BRAB]

Such a poor look, especially when using the pick allocated by the AFL to facilitate the trade.

You might feel a bit sorry for them as well, given Brodie and MacPherson signed big contracts when the suns were at rock bottom.

The you remember that they did stupid shit like bring in Rory Atkins on a FIVE YEAR 400k deal to play VFL.

The AFL have essentially given them a priority pick to use in a salary dump because of their poor list management.

I really like the suns but some of the shit they do at the trade table makes it hard to feel sorry for them.

 

[POBT]

I used to prefer having one genuine ruck and a pinch hitter but after I saw Big O tire late in games in the back end of the year, namely against eagles, Melbourne and dogs, I think we must play two genuine rucks moving forward more for countering threats like Gawn and Jackson combo come finals. A lot of teams don’t play two rucks so it can be a big point of difference at the end of the year. Fort is also no mug in the forward line. Just as cox is also underrated as a ruck. Both upgrades on Fullerton and that’s what we are after. If hipwood comes back then that’s great. We have a selection headache

Are you suggesting we play 3 tall forwards as well as 2 rucks? If so, we'd be in the minority in the comp doing that. Port is probably the main example of a club running a 3 KPF+2 ruck structure when they play Lycett, Ladhams, Dixon, Marshall and Georgiades. West Coast have done it too, particularly when NicNat has been on reduced playing time. It does come at a cost though, as you have one less midfielder in the 22.

If we decide to play 2 rucks and 2 KPFs, it probably only works while Hippy is out.

The other thing that perhaps we should be considering is demanding a bit more out of Daniher when he goes into the ruck. He should be more competitive than he was at times. As much as it probably isn't his preference, a 200cm player should be able to at least contest, particularly with the around the ground ruck contests where he doesn't have someone jumping into him.

 

[davemc_lions]

Are you suggesting we play 3 tall forwards as well as 2 rucks? If so, we'd be in the minority in the comp doing that. Port is probably the main example of a club running a 3 KPF+2 ruck structure when they play Lycett, Ladhams, Dixon, Marshall and Georgiades. West Coast have done it too, particularly when NicNat has been on reduced playing time. It does come at a cost though, as you have one less midfielder in the 22.

If we decide to play 2 rucks and 2 KPFs, it probably only works while Hippy is out.

The other thing that perhaps we should be considering is demanding a bit more out of Daniher when he goes into the ruck. He should be more competitive than he was at times. As much as it probably isn't his preference, a 200cm player should be able to at least contest, particularly with the around the ground ruck contests where he doesn't have someone jumping into him.

I try 2 rucks 2 forwards while Hipwood is out.
Then work out what we do when he is back
Bother Hipwood and Joe good at ground level so do not just play tall

 

[mattsmob]

I try 2 rucks 2 forwards while Hipwood is out.
Then work out what we do when he is back
Bother Hipwood and Joe good at ground level so do not just play tall

Just on Hipwood and Daniher, both are good at ground level for key position forwards, if we're comparing them to having an extra small forward or mid then they're not very good a ground level.

 

[Section 5]

You might feel a bit sorry for them as well, given Brodie and MacPherson signed big contracts when the suns were at rock bottom.

The you remember that they did stupid sh*t like bring in Rory Atkins on a FIVE YEAR 400k deal to play VFL.

The AFL have essentially given them a priority pick to use in a salary dump because of their poor list management.

I really like the suns but some of the sh*t they do at the trade table makes it hard to feel sorry for them.

Salary cap issues can be a hard thing to turn around
Lions were in a similar place for many years

Regarding trade issues.
It is like the Suns get to turn low draft picks into good players with other clubs then taking over to get the benefit

I don't know all the complexity surrounding the cap. Does anyone really?
For me the issue for bottom placed clubs is they can't bank much cap money
So they are forced to pay well overs to keep fringe/average players as well as attract good players to the club
One thing they should be able to control is contract length. Do not have 4 year or longer deals for average players.
Reserve that type of deal for stars of the game

Having said all that how did they actually get into a salary cap problem for 2022
Below some of the players that left the Suns that would have been on good money. Who did they get in is the issue
Wright, Ah Chee, Lyons, Saad, O'Mera, Hall, May, Jack Martin, Tom Lynch & Prestia
I may have missed some

 

[blueiris]

 

[POBT]

I try 2 rucks 2 forwards while Hipwood is out.
Then work out what we do when he is back
Bother Hipwood and Joe good at ground level so do not just play tall

I think whatever we do at first has to be able to be sustained once Hipwood is back. You preferably don't want to be making changes to your ball movement in July to account for a personnel change you know is coming. If we decide to play 2 rucks as an interim measure, we either need to put Oscar forward more or make the second ruck spend a lot of time up front. I haven't seen enough of Fort at AFL level to know whether he can do that (I'm aware that he's done it at VFL level). I think though that Cox/Casboult are more proven forward options.

We obviously have imperfect options available to us. I think that to decide, we need to know what the club's primary need is. If it is a backup ruck as Oscar insurance, then it's probably Fort. If it is a temporary Hipwood replacement, maybe the more proven forwards come into play.

I probably lean towards signing someone to play backup ruck. I would then give Fullarton first bite of the cherry at senior level and avoid a major structural change if possible. I recognise that is an ideal situation though and not necessarily reality.

 

[RoyBoy17]

Are you suggesting we play 3 tall forwards as well as 2 rucks? If so, we'd be in the minority in the comp doing that. Port is probably the main example of a club running a 3 KPF+2 ruck structure when they play Lycett, Ladhams, Dixon, Marshall and Georgiades. West Coast have done it too, particularly when NicNat has been on reduced playing time. It does come at a cost though, as you have one less midfielder in the 22.

If we decide to play 2 rucks and 2 KPFs, it probably only works while Hippy is out.

The other thing that perhaps we should be considering is demanding a bit more out of Daniher when he goes into the ruck. He should be more competitive than he was at times. As much as it probably isn't his preference, a 200cm player should be able to at least contest, particularly with the around the ground ruck contests where he doesn't have someone jumping into him.

No definitely just 2 key forwards and 2 rucks. Otherwise too tall. Much like we did with Martin and Big O combo which worked well. Daniher isn’t changing now if he hasn’t already. Hardest thing to coach into someone is competitiveness. When Hipwood comes back then he may have to ruck a bit though. But the benefit of playing two rucks most of the year is that Big O will be fresher come finals.

 

[RoyBoy17]

Agreed - would be good to get Fort for backup & support for Oscar...the Big O had a fantastic season and gave his heart and soul to the team but he did tire, particularly against the elite rucks in the competition. We also need that insurance on the list in case something happened to take Oscar out of play for an extended period. Oscar can also be a dangerous player when switched forward and having Fort available would assist with that option.
I have never seen Fort play so don't really know anything at all about him other than what I have read on Big Footy but he certainly appeals more than the other options being bandied about.

One of the few games he’s played was actually against us last year. He got the better of our rucks that night. He’s no gun by any means but he’s handy forward and competent with his tap work. Not sure why Geelong didn’t give him a crack. They love Rhys Stanley

 

[acuguy]

How much could MacPherson be on to warrant a salary dump??

 

[Section 5]

One of the few games he’s played was actually against us last year. He got the better of our rucks that night. He’s no gun by any means but he’s handy forward and competent with his tap work. Not sure why Geelong didn’t give him a crack. They love Rhys Stanley

That was in 2020. How time flies
Fort did fairly well that night considering he was Geelong's only ruck and was up against Martin & Oscar
Fort did not play an AFL game last year

 

[BuntonRules]

Still reckon, for value and needs, Fort is our best option

 

[lioninthesand]

I used to prefer having one genuine ruck and a pinch hitter but after I saw Big O tire late in games in the back end of the year, namely against eagles, Melbourne and dogs, I think we must play two genuine rucks moving forward more for countering threats like Gawn and Jackson combo come finals. A lot of teams don’t play two rucks so it can be a big point of difference at the end of the year. Fort is also no mug in the forward line. Just as cox is also underrated as a ruck. Both upgrades on Fullerton and that’s what we are after. If hipwood comes back then that’s great. We have a selection headache

I agree with this. I think we need two genuine rucks. Who out of McStay, Daniher, Hipwood (once fit) plays ressies though?

Or do we play 3 talls and a resting ruck forward? if we do this... how do we intend to defend rebound 50's?

Playing 5 genuine talls ruck/forward is uncharted territory.

 

[mattsmob]

I agree with this. I think we need two genuine rucks. Who out of McStay, Daniher, Hipwood (once fit) plays ressies though?

I think the answer to that is none of them, if one was going to we might as well trade them for value and salary cap. I also don't see the problem with playing just Oscar, Hipwood, Daniher and McStay, it's one the deadliest forward lines in the league and that's not even including Cameron, Linc, Bailey and Rayner.

 

[RoyBoy17]

I agree with this. I think we need two genuine rucks. Who out of McStay, Daniher, Hipwood (once fit) plays ressies though?

Or do we play 3 talls and a resting ruck forward? if we do this... how do we intend to defend rebound 50's?

Playing 5 genuine talls ruck/forward is uncharted territory.

Hipwood comes in for one of the rucks when the time comes. It’s nice to have the option anyway. Good headache to have if the two rucks work well.

 

[dlanod]

Still reckon, for value and needs, Fort is our best option

If we can get Fort for an unused pick, that's a win.

If Cox is willing to come on close to the minimum, that's a win.

i.e. I don't mind us getting Cox if we were going to have to invest an actual asset into Fort's availability.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Cox would probably be useful for the next two seasons, after which we can get another mature ruck if the youngsters still aren't considered ready. And that could be Fort, who would still be young enough at that point to be useful.

 

[md20]

Cox is a terrible ruck and a terrible forward. Would be a liability and probably ruin a few good passages of play. Would prefer Casboult and thats saying alot.