Training 2022 - 2023 Off-Season and Pre-Season training Watch

[hawkman]

They really want people to attend these games with those timeslots

 

[Brant]

Not a bloke who is the best forward in modern history and just kicked over 1,000 goals last season.

That's a bloody good season!

 

[Ned Ryerson]

That's a bloody good season!

If only he’d saved a a dozen or so for the grand final.

 

[KermitJagger]

Would Harry McKay in his 3rd season as a 21yo be a better comparison? McKay played 20 games for 26 goals.

McKay was also in the league top 5 for contested marks, marks on lead and top 10 for marks inside 50 that season. My point was that Kosi doesn't do any of that. He kicked 11 goals in 3 games, and 16 in the other 17. For as long as he doesn't find any other way to trouble teams in the majority of the season where he's averaging less than a goal a game, he's going to be a poor choice as #1 forward in my eyes.

 

[Brant]

If only he’d saved a a dozen or so for the grand final.

I'm wondering about his season's scoreline: 1,000 goals, 992 points?

 

[Ned Ryerson]

You can't compare those two of course, however there is still an underselling of what Kosi achieved in 2021.

It was his debut season. Yes, it was his third year in the system, but it was still his debut season. Plus it was his first attempt at playing as a forward. The better comparison would be any other mature aged key forward in their DEBUT season.

Massive difference for a KPP debuting as an 18 year old and 20.5 year old I feel. Only need to look at what Franklin did the year after and then the next 2 years after that to see that’s it’s like chalk and cheese as a comparison. There’s plenty of great KPFs who don’t look so flash in their first 1-2 years at the top level - to grab any of them and say ‘this is the curve we can grade Kosi on now!!’ is genuinely silly.

 

[barbster]

McKay was also in the league top 5 for contested marks, marks on lead and top 10 for marks inside 50 that season. My point was that Kosi doesn't do any of that. He kicked 11 goals in 3 games, and 16 in the other 17. For as long as he doesn't find any other way to trouble teams in the majority of the season where he's averaging less than a goal a game, he's going to be a poor choice as #1 forward in my eyes.

I agree he is a totally different player to McKay, but it is hard to find a mature key forward doing as good in their first year.

By the way he kicked 4 on Steven May, in his 2nd game back last year after a interrupted pre seaso.
Not too shabby I would have thought.

 

[KermitJagger]

I agree he is a totally different player to McKay, but it is hard to find a mature key forward doing as good in their first year.

By the way he kicked 4 on Steven May, in his 2nd game back last year after a interrupted pre seaso.
Not too shabby I would have thought.

Let's be honest, May was not troubling himself with Kosi that match. Don't reckon he was his direct opponent for any of them and was in the middle of the ground when Kosi kicked his first. Not to mention that two of those were absolute Joe the gooses, one coming in dead time at the end of the match.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I agree he is a totally different player to McKay, but it is hard to find a mature key forward doing as good in their first year.

By the way he kicked 4 on Steven May, in his 2nd game back last year after a interrupted pre seaso.
Not too shabby I would have thought.

It wasn’t his first year - it was his third year. Big bodied players take more time to develop so comparing him to an 18 year old KPP who is getting treatment from fully developed adults is not a fair comparison. Find me a player who debuted in their third year in the system who came on a bit but then regressed and seemed to struggle with their forward craft in their 4th year but then became one of the better KPFs in the league and then we can talk how Kosi might be on a similar trajectory. But to peg your hopes on him being the next Lance Franklin is as ambitious as Anthony Callea wanting to play KPP in any AFL side

 

[barbster]

It wasn’t his first year - it was his third year. Big bodied players take more time to develop so comparing him to an 18 year old KPP who is getting treatment from fully developed adults is not a fair comparison. Find me a player who debuted in their third year in the system who came on a bit but then regressed and seemed to struggle with their forward craft in their 4th year but then became one of the better KPFs in the league and then we can talk how Kosi might be on a similar trajectory. But to peg your hopes on him being the next Lance Franklin is as ambitious as Anthony Callea wanting to play KPP in any AFL side

Travis Cloke in his 4th year kicked 40 goals as a 21yo then regressed to 22 goals from 22 games the following season. Following years saw him kick lots of 38, 69,58 & 68 goals
There are probably numerous other examples of forwards regressing and then getting better, but I can’t be bothered listing considering the topic in hand is about pre season training
As others have mentioned throwing Kozi in the ruck was the main reason he regressed as a forward last year

It wasn’t his first year - it was his third year. Big bodied players take more time to develop so comparing him to an 18 year old KPP who is getting treatment from fully developed adults is not a fair comparison. Find me a player who debuted in their third year in the system who came on a bit but then regressed and seemed to struggle with their forward craft in their 4th year but then became one of the better KPFs in the league and then we can talk how Kosi might be on a similar trajectory. But to peg your hopes on him being the next Lance Franklin is as ambitious as Anthony Callea wanting to play KPP in any AFL side

 

[Howe Amazing]

How much smaller is Brockman compared to Mark Williams? Could he play a more deep forward role similar to what he did, he seems a good mark for his size

 

[eldorado]

How much smaller is Brockman compared to Mark Williams? Could he play a more deep forward role similar to what he did, he seems a good mark for his size

Exactly the same height, 180cm

 

[KermitJagger]

Jason Cloke in his 4th year kicked 40 goals as a 21yo then regressed to 22 goals from 22 games the following season. Following years saw him kick lots of 38, 69,58 & 68 goals
There are probably numerous other examples of forwards regressing and then getting better, but I can’t be bothered listing considering the topic in hand is about pre season training
As others have mentioned throwing Kozi in the ruck was the main reason he regressed as a forward last year

Once again I'm asking you to consider more than just goals, like I've said multiple times in this thread despite you continuing to bring them up. Kicking 20 - 30 goals a season is barely enough for a forward that does many things well, it's nowhere near enough for a forward who does nothing else better than the league average.

In his break out 2021, amongst key forwards he was:

26th for goals
35th for team score involvement %
39th for marks on lead
22nd for marks inside 50
36th for contested marks
52nd for disposals

Even for pressure acts, which was what a lot of people spruiked him for being good at, he didn't even factor into the top 50. Remember these stats are all for key forwards, and he's rated average for two of them and below average for the rest.

 

[The Chad and I]

J

Jason Cloke in his 4th year kicked 40 goals as a 21yo then regressed to 22 goals from 22 games the following season. Following years saw him kick lots of 38, 69,58 & 68 goals
There are probably numerous other examples of forwards regressing and then getting better, but I can’t be bothered listing considering the topic in hand is about pre season training
As others have mentioned throwing Kozi in the ruck was the main reason he regressed as a forward last year

Jason Cloke never kicked more than 5 goals in a season.
Cameron Cloke never kicked more than 15 goals in a season.
Travis Cloke, however...

 

[Ned Ryerson]

So Kosi is now somewhere between Travis Cloke and Lance Franklin. Were rose coloured glasses on sale this week?

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Lynch to start round one with one of Meek or Reeves.

I'd lean towards Meek as he's much more physical than Reeves and this combo could work over Draper.

 

[The Chad and I]

So Kosi is now somewhere between Travis Cloke and Lance Franklin. Were rose coloured glasses on sale this week?

Kosi had one good season and 1 ordinary season.
He's only played 36 games...in a shit team.
22 years old.

He's got work to do, but tough crowd writing him off.

 

[FB19]

Kosi is not buddy and never will be totally unfair. We are working out if he can be a second or third forward who can contribute 20-30 goals and something else as well like forward pressure given he has speed. that will determine if he makes it. I think he’s a confidence player what I think he needs most is to understand leading patterns as he’s not a natural forward. Someone like Derm would really help him there, I recall he was excellent at it. He should watch vision of how the hawks forwards in the late 80s and early 90s ran patterns and decoys for dunstall.

 

[Mississippi]

I’m surprised people are talking up Lynch.
Reeves and Meek are both clearly superior ruckman and should start in round 1.

And I can’t believe Sam would consider playing Lynch at full forward in the absence of Lewis.
Playing 3 ruckman (one out of position) won’t work.

 

[Blackhawk42]

It wasn’t his first year - it was his third year. Big bodied players take more time to develop so comparing him to an 18 year old KPP who is getting treatment from fully developed adults is not a fair comparison. Find me a player who debuted in their third year in the system who came on a bit but then regressed and seemed to struggle with their forward craft in their 4th year but then became one of the better KPFs in the league and then we can talk how Kosi might be on a similar trajectory. But to peg your hopes on him being the next Lance Franklin is as ambitious as Anthony Callea wanting to play KPP in any AFL side

You REALLY dislike Kosi. Or something about him easily triggers you.
I'll call you on it straight up.

One poster essentially said 'fair enough, he can't compare to Buddy' and offered another comparison of a player in their third season. You went straight back to the Buddy comment and refused to let it go.

I offered up a similar concept, that perhaps he should be compared to any mature aged forward in their first season, and you felt that was 'genuinely silly'.

Also, Anthony Callea has never played competitive sport as far as I'm aware. Clever, obscure reference, but the kid who had kicked 43 goals in his past two seasons is, by definition, closer to becoming the best Buddy than Anthony is to pulling on a jumper.

Just relax. We all want Kosi to make it. He's shown a couple of good signs early in his career. Let's see how his 2023 turns out. In 12 months time we may know more about his future.

 

[Mercy Seat]

I’m surprised people are talking up Lynch.
Reeves and Meek are both clearly superior ruckman and should start in round 1.

And I can’t believe Sam would consider playing Lynch at full forward in the absence of Lewis.
Playing 3 ruckman (one out of position) won’t work.

Are they really “much superior”? Given the injury interruptions it’s hard to compare recent output, and track watchers have largely said they’re all performing really well at training.

I think it might be closer than people think.

 

[threesixpio]

How much smaller is Brockman compared to Mark Williams? Could he play a more deep forward role similar to what he did, he seems a good mark for his size

Brockman's hero is Charlie Cameron. Says his game is based on Cameron’s. So yeah deep forward not crazy

 

[fairdinks]

Wow, there is a lot of hate for Kossie. Tries hard, throws his body in and has actually performed very well on occasion at AFL level. Jeka on the other hand seems to be revered as the next best thing since Buddy, but actually has done SFA at AFL level. YET

Both may go on to have good careers, OR, they may not make it beyond this year.

Its pre season, they are still young and i'll back both in to be contributors this year. However, if they were delisted at year end, I could see Kossie getting a gig elsewhere as a backup option, but not Jeka....

 

[CD Xbow]

So Kosi is now somewhere between Travis Cloke and Lance Franklin. Were rose coloured glasses on sale this week?

No, he's the new whipping boy, somewhere between Shoey and TOB.

 

[KermitJagger]

Kosi had one good season and 1 ordinary season.
He's only played 36 games...in a s**t team.
22 years old.

He's got work to do, but tough crowd writing him off.

He's had 2 poor seasons, one good game. Take the 5 goal game out of 2021 and it's pretty much identical to 2022. Below average across the board.

I'd love to be proven wrong but he's poor as a first option tall, worse as a second and would need to somehow develop a tonne of forward nous to change that.

No, he's the new whipping boy, somewhere between Shoey and TOB.

A whipping boy would be like Harry Morrison, someone who cops the blame despite playing well. Not someone who has ardent defenders despite the opposite.

 

[The Chad and I]

If Kosi develops, he could become our Earl Spalding, and Lewis our Kernahan.

He's had 2 poor seasons, one good game. Take the 5 goal game out of 2021 and it's pretty much identical to 2022. Below average across the board.

I'd love to be proven wrong but he's poor as a first option tall, worse as a second and would need to somehow develop a tonne of forward nous to change that.


A whipping boy would be like Harry Morrison, someone who cops the blame despite playing well. Not someone who has ardent defenders despite the opposite.

Why take his best performance out?
27 goals in 20 games from a 20 year old is pretty good going in my books.
Especially in a bad team that changed coaches at the end of the season.
And even more so considering it was his first season training as a forward in the seniors.

He's got limitations and a lot to work on, but he is serviceable.