Falcon3518
Norm Smith Medallist
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2022 All Aus Predictions and Rolling teams
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- May 5, 2016
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An all time top 30 allows for barely 2 and a bit players per decade since the inception of the game.
I think anyone in the top 150-200 of all time would be considered by most to be an all time great
Falcon3518
Norm Smith Medallist
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I challenge you to do a list as far as you can be bothered. I think you’ll find the talent pool runs out pretty quick between 50-100.
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Top 30 is very, very pointy end. I really rate Hawkins but there is no way known he is near the top 30 of all time. As PB said, that is 1-2 per decade. Let's say Franklin is your choice for the last decade. That leaves out Dusty, Ablett Jnr, Judd and a host of others. Hawkins has been amazing but not in that company.
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All time greats off the top of my head
Martin
Ablett
Ablett
Franklin
S Johnson
S Milne
J Kennedy
J Kennedy
Dunstall
Lockett
Modra
Pavlich
Riewoldt
Riewoldt
Johnathon Brown
Tredrea
Williams
Healy
Matera
Jakovich
Silvagni
Harvey
Harvey
Carey
Archer
Fletcher
Scarlett
Enright
Doull
Kernahan
Koutoufides
Roos
Stynes
Gawn
Fox
Cousins
Voss
Black
Akermanis
Lynch
Richardson
Wanganeen
Hird
Buckley
Ricciuto
Judd
Fyfe
Glass
Rance
Hawkins
There’s 50 straight up that I’ve seen.
Tuck
Grant
Liberatore
Platten
Hocking
Diperdomenico
Brereton
Ayers
Couch
Bartel
Selwood
Dangerfield
Goddard
Salmon
Madden
Jarman
Hart
Crawford
Goodes
Hall
Thats 70
Jesaulenko
Cazaly
Langford
Walls
Stewart
Matthews
Hudson
Coleman
Whitten
Newman
Goggin
Farmer
Bunton
Skilton
Fanning
Coventry
Bartlett
Flower
Wade
Blight
Quinlan
Dempsey
Round
Murray
Moore
Greig
Templeton
Dyer
Reynolds
Robran
There’s another 30.
That’s just off the top of my head there’d be dozens and dozens I’ve missed.
I have a book that Mike Sheahan was heavily involved in where he named his 100 best ever and I’m sure I’m probably missing heaps
Falcon3518
Norm Smith Medallist
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Great, so now do the following:
- Remove all players that don’t have at least 3 AAs. Unless the have a Brownlow, MVP etc
- Then remove all mids that don’t have a Brownlow, MVP, coaches or Norm Smith
- Then remove all FF that don’t have 3+ Coleman’s. (Players like N Riewoldt are still in he’s a CHF)
How many/who do you have left?
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- May 5, 2016
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Why? All Australian as we know it has only been around for a little over 30 years
In fact half those awards didn’t even exist when numerous players I’ve named were around.
And again it’s a false equivalency.
In a few weeks Lachie Neale might be a two time brownlow medalist. No way am I taking him over Goddard or Hocking or the litany of other players who won 0.
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When did Goal Assists start getting counted? Dunstall has zero officially, but he probably handed off twice as many as Hawkins. The least selfish player in the team, yet still managed to kick an enormous number of goals.
Leigh Matthews fails there.
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I don’t think anyone is about to dive in and claim Hawkins or any other recent forward aside from Buddy is in Dunstall’s league.
Fact is though a player as good as Garry Lyon who himself could probably fit into the list I posted above said that he has never seen a key forward as unselfish as Hawkins so numbers or not it’s a major part of his DNA as a footballer and I don’t think it’s even beginning to approach an exaggeration that had he been more selfish he would easily have 800+ goals.
One of the knocks on him has been that he hasn’t kicked huge bags (on a side not it wasn’t until 3-4 years ago he ever started playing as a true full forward so I’m not sure why anyone is really marking him that way anyway). The three times he’s kicked 7, in the last 15 minutes of each of those games he’s managed 1 goal.
And that goal came in what is probably the best performance by a key forward in recent years where he kicked 4 in the last quarter to overturn a 5 goal margin against Melbourne (Tuohy famously kicked the winner after the siren).
The other two hauls of seven were in absolute drubbings where he could have pulled rank and really filled his boots.
When he’s kicked 6, on a couple of occasions he’s gone goalless in the last quarter and on two more he’s kicked one.
That’s just from the 7 that were easily available from AFL Tables.
I don’t think it’s inconceivable that he could have easily bagged 8-9-10 regularly with a more selfish approach
Probably adding more than we are removing if that’s the criteria.
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Could easily put someone like Simon Beasley in there who averaged about 3.8 goals over 150-odd games after coming across from WA and only managed one coleman.
Brian Taylor likewise kicked over 520 goals from 140 games. One coleman. Both could easily be considered.
Neitz is Melbourne’s all time leading goalkicker still from memory I think he only broke 70 on a season once.
Using such black and white criteria is simply non-sensical to try and analyse and categorise players.
In almost any other era Stan Wawrinka and Andy Murray won 7-8 grand slams. They happened to play their whole careers ensconced in this freakish Feder Nadal and Djokovic vacuum and won what, 6 between them.
Putting aside the drug factor that tainted the entire peloton for 20+ years, Jan Ullrich is one of the greatest cyclists to ever put on a helmet. He was at the time I think the youngest ever TDF winner in 1997, two years later a bloke called Armstrong comes along and he settled for second 4 times.
He’s won as many TDF’s as Cadel Evans. While I love Evans and he’s a hero, he’s not even in the same class with our without drugs but Evans didn’t have to battle Lance Armstrong and Marco Pantani and Joseba Beloki he battled the Schleck brothers.
Brian Taylor likewise kicked over 520 goals from 140 games. One coleman. Both could easily be considered.
Neitz is Melbourne’s all time leading goalkicker still from memory I think he only broke 70 on a season once.
Using such black and white criteria is simply non-sensical to try and analyse and categorise players.
In almost any other era Stan Wawrinka and Andy Murray won 7-8 grand slams. They happened to play their whole careers ensconced in this freakish Feder Nadal and Djokovic vacuum and won what, 6 between them.
Putting aside the drug factor that tainted the entire peloton for 20+ years, Jan Ullrich is one of the greatest cyclists to ever put on a helmet. He was at the time I think the youngest ever TDF winner in 1997, two years later a bloke called Armstrong comes along and he settled for second 4 times.
He’s won as many TDF’s as Cadel Evans. While I love Evans and he’s a hero, he’s not even in the same class with our without drugs but Evans didn’t have to battle Lance Armstrong and Marco Pantani and Joseba Beloki he battled the Schleck brothers.
Falcon3518
Norm Smith Medallist
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No he doesn’t read the first point. That’s why I specifically put it in.
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Barry cable has to get a mention as well
Falcon3518
Norm Smith Medallist
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Ah well I think that’s where we differ. I would take Neale. He’ll had to his CV as well. Look I get Goddard and that are iconic players. But It doesn’t mean that they are better than the guns today.
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How many goals or possessions or clearances will his CV get him?
That’s the bottom line.
In a fantasy world where you can line the players up against one another, awards mean nothing - what makes one better than another is skill, fitness, game sense, toughness, poise, mental strength, physical strength. In that’s scenario yes of course if someone has won a couple of Brownlows or MVPs or Colemans it goes without saying that they’ll be a very good footballer but they can’t wear those awards on the field and get a power-up.
I’ve never said they are better than the guns today I’m saying that specific player is better than another specific player of today. There are heaps of current or recent players that are as good as or better than past ones I’ve never claimed otherwise.
Cable had 4 grand finals in the vfl
Probably after his prime of dominating wafl.
74- loss 25 possesions 2 goals
75- win 25 possesions 1 behind
76- lost 21 possesions 2 goals
77- win 22 possesions 2 goals
77 finals
semi final- 35 possesions 1 goal
Prelim final- 38 possesions 3 goals
76 prelim final - 35 possesions
And known as one of the best skilled players to have ever walked onto a football field.
WAFL- 3 sandover medals (Brownlow)
3 Simpson medals ( Norm Smith)
Probably after his prime of dominating wafl.
74- loss 25 possesions 2 goals
75- win 25 possesions 1 behind
76- lost 21 possesions 2 goals
77- win 22 possesions 2 goals
77 finals
semi final- 35 possesions 1 goal
Prelim final- 38 possesions 3 goals
76 prelim final - 35 possesions
And known as one of the best skilled players to have ever walked onto a football field.
WAFL- 3 sandover medals (Brownlow)
3 Simpson medals ( Norm Smith)
Falcon3518
Norm Smith Medallist
- Mar 13, 2022
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Falcon3518
Norm Smith Medallist
- Mar 13, 2022
- 5,350
- 3,237
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Look maybe it’s just me but I don’t think it’s right that we have 300 greats of the game it’s too many. The gap between the no 1 and 300 would be massive. Greats are meant to be so good that they are almost inseparable. It’s why they are on all time lists.
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Falcon3518
Norm Smith Medallist
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No we can only judge him on what he has done. If part of his game is passing it off then that’s the player he is and that’s what we assess him on.
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That’s the thing though there is no rule.
Every sport has these official and unofficial concepts.
When Rugby League Week announced its immortals in the 1980s, it was Clive Churchill, Reg Gasnier, Bob Fulton and Johnny Raper from memory.
At the time they were untouchable in the ‘lore’ of rugby league history but pretty soon - within 14-15 years - it was realised that there were and are other players who deserve to be in that company because there were many who saw both the original 4 and the guys who came later like Wally Lewis, Mal Meninga, Graeme Langlands, Andrew Johns and Arthur Beetson. Norm Provan as well. Telling one they can’t be in it because it’s too exclusive wouldn’t be right because in their own ways all of those guys are roughly equal
I think you overestimate the gap in quality. I think the top 9-10 players in history whoever they may be as there is no scientific way to establish it, are probably in a realm of their own but behind them it’s a logjam
Falcon3518
Norm Smith Medallist
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Its the stats that get them those awards. That’s what the awards represent. It’s not some meaningless independent thing. That other cats supporter acknowledged Hawkins terrific season (because of his stats) has essentially been ‘franked’ with the AA and Sicily’s will be forgotten. Rightly so. Hawkins 2022 stats = Hawkins 2022 AA. That’s what will be in the lineup if you pick him.
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Falcon3518
Norm Smith Medallist
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Yeah look great player, but I don’t really take into account other leagues when doing my ranking. The awards aren’t equivalent imo.
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And I get that, you can’t applaud someone for things they could have done but didn’t - that’s unarguable - but it does paint a picture of the type of forward he is. A black and white appraisal of him or anyone else like yours that is based wholely and solely on one metric doesn’t allow for that.
A midfield equivalent would be Marcus Bontempelli. In years to come people might look at his numbers particularly when it comes to possessions and will just go ‘oh ok he was reasonable.’ Anyone who’s watched a lot of Dogs games in the last 7 years will know he’s much much more than that
- Feb 9, 2015
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I hope that’s. For reference 9% of Hawkins stats that don’t end up in a goal or point end with a goal assist.
For Dunstall to be double, his number would need to be 41%.
He’d have assisted much fewer goals than Hawk, but that’s how the game has changed.
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Yes and there are only awards given for a certain number of statistical measuring criteria.
Modra is the perfect example. Injury itself may have robbed him of more awards it’s hard to say.
Fact is he won the same amount of coleman medals as Scott Cummings
No one in their right mind would rate the two equal. Modra had skills and abilities that Cummings, a good solid player, simply did not
