2022 Hawthorn List Management Discussion (including Trade, FA period)

[eldorado]

Here, for people so inclined

 

[The German Hunter]

Here, for people so inclined

Not another thread eldorado! You mods are gluttons for punishment!!

 

[eldorado]

Not another thread eldorado! You mods are gluttons for punishment!!

I've gutted the **** out of the hypotheticals thread.. took me ****ing hours.

DESPITE the clear instruction at the top of every page about about what should NOT go in there...that is exactly what has gone in there for the last 4 days.

All the peripheral conversations about Mark McKenzie, how we've traded, and how we've drafted (when it happens) can go here.

 

[wahawk]

Is this where we come to hate on MM & SM & anyone else HFC related

 

[eldorado]

Is this where we come to hate on MM & SM & anyone else HFC related

That's one of the possible strands of conversation, yes...

 

[Yardie]

That's one of the possible strands of conversation, yes...

Well the woman's team just won their third game after going into the season hoping for one win. They are just as bad as the men with this trying to have a winning culture bullshit. Whole place is going to hell......

 

[KermitJagger]

For the first serious comment in the thread, in terms of our list the major priorities are -

A reliable CHF
Midfield class and depth

The obvious area of improvement is the midfield. Irrespective of how you feel about Champion Data, if I understand their yearly rating system we will go into 2023 with a decent handful of players that they would rate as elite (top 10% of your position, at least 10 matches).

Forward -
Dylan Moore

13

Dylan Moore

Age

24

Ht

177cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.9

3star

K

5.1

2star

HB

6.7

4star

M

4.4

4star

T

2.9

4star

G

0.3

3star

No current season stats available

D

12.2

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

6.2

4star

M

5.4

5star

T

2.8

5star

G

0.4

3star

Luke Breust

22

Luke Breust

Age

33

Ht

182cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.6

4star

K

8.0

3star

HB

6.7

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

4.0

5star

G

1.9

5star

D

10.0

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

1.3

1star

T

4.8

5star

G

1.5

5star

D

9.8

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.8

5star

G

1.8

5star

Def -
James Sicily

6

James Sicily

Age

29

Ht

188cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

12.7

5star

HB

5.7

4star

M

6.3

5star

T

1.5

3star

MG

365.0

5star

D

19.4

4star

K

14.3

5star

HB

5.1

3star

M

5.9

5star

T

1.0

2star

MG

437.4

5star

D

10.0

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

173.8

3star

Jack Scrimshaw

14

Jack Scrimshaw

Age

25

Ht

194cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.8

4star

K

7.7

3star

HB

6.1

4star

M

3.7

4star

T

1.4

3star

MG

200.7

3star

D

12.3

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

5.3

3star

M

2.5

3star

T

1.3

2star

MG

167.0

3star

D

10.2

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.6

4star

MG

155.6

3star

Wing -
Karl Amon

10

Karl Amon

Age

28

Ht

181cm

Wt

71kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.6

4star

K

9.7

4star

HB

6.8

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

2.6

4star

MG

294.5

4star

D

21.0

5star

K

15.0

5star

HB

6.0

3star

M

6.0

5star

T

2.0

3star

D

10.4

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

2.0

4star

MG

146.8

3star

We will also have Wingard who was previously rated as elite, but will have likely fallen out due to injury and Mitch Lewis who was rated elite most of the year until his games playing through a knee injury.

We don't have a midfielder who will be rated within the top 10% of their position. That said, there are only 8 midfielders in the league who earn the elite title from CD so it's not the biggest issue, the issue is that we may have no one outside of Newcombe who rates as even above average.

The problem is that the midfield needs more than we can get through the draft alone, so I'm hoping for internal progression to do a lot of work.

 

[H00t]

For the first serious comment in the thread, in terms of our list the major priorities are -

A reliable CHF
Midfield class and depth

The obvious area of improvement is the midfield. Irrespective of how you feel about Champion Data, if I understand their yearly rating system we will go into 2023 with a decent handful of players that they would rate as elite (top 10% of your position, at least 10 matches).

Forward -
Dylan Moore
Luke Breust

Def -
James Sicily
Jack Scrimshaw

Wing -
Karl Amon

We will also have Wingard who was previously rated as elite, but will have likely fallen out due to injury and Mitch Lewis who was rated elite most of the year until his games playing through a knee injury.

We don't have a midfielder who will be rated within the top 10% of their position. That said, there are only 8 midfielders in the league who earn the elite title from CD so it's not the biggest issue, the issue is that we may have no one outside of Newcombe who rates as even above average.

The problem is that the midfield needs more than we can get through the draft alone, so I'm hoping for internal progression to do a lot of work.

We might have players elite for their position. But in the grand scheme of the best players in the league Sicily is probably top 10-20. Lewis with a full year might push into the 20.

Moore and Duke might push into the top 50. That’s about it.

We need those absolute elite midfielders. Going to hope we draft them. Our forward line and backline are actually doing alright. It’s just the top line players we need to elevate us.

 

[Coach Killer]

As of tonight, I’m of the opinion we do not need any more midfielders. We need players with super foot skills who can kick goals.

We already have young midfielders looking for game time that will improve next year ( Jai, Moore, Finn, Ward, McDonald, Worpel & Butler) plus Mitchell and Omeara. That’s 9 players for 4 positions on the ground.

 

[MasterSamurai]

As of tonight, I’m of the opinion we do not need any more midfielders. We need players with super foot skills who can kick goals.

We already have young midfielders looking for game time that will improve next year ( Jai, Moore, Finn, Ward, McDonald, Worpel & Butler) plus Mitchell and Omeara. That’s 9 players for 4 positions on the ground.

İt points to sheezel.

 

[Accipiter]

For the first serious comment in the thread, in terms of our list the major priorities are -

A reliable CHF
Midfield class and depth

The obvious area of improvement is the midfield. Irrespective of how you feel about Champion Data, if I understand their yearly rating system we will go into 2023 with a decent handful of players that they would rate as elite (top 10% of your position, at least 10 matches).

Forward -
Dylan Moore
Luke Breust

Def -
James Sicily
Jack Scrimshaw

Wing -
Karl Amon

We will also have Wingard who was previously rated as elite, but will have likely fallen out due to injury and Mitch Lewis who was rated elite most of the year until his games playing through a knee injury.

We don't have a midfielder who will be rated within the top 10% of their position. That said, there are only 8 midfielders in the league who earn the elite title from CD so it's not the biggest issue, the issue is that we may have no one outside of Newcombe who rates as even above average.

The problem is that the midfield needs more than we can get through the draft alone, so I'm hoping for internal progression to do a lot of work.

For the first serious comment in the thread, in terms of our list the major priorities are -

A reliable CHF
Midfield class and depth

The obvious area of improvement is the midfield. Irrespective of how you feel about Champion Data, if I understand their yearly rating system we will go into 2023 with a decent handful of players that they would rate as elite (top 10% of your position, at least 10 matches).

Forward -
Dylan Moore
Luke Breust

Def -
James Sicily
Jack Scrimshaw

Wing -
Karl Amon

We will also have Wingard who was previously rated as elite, but will have likely fallen out due to injury and Mitch Lewis who was rated elite most of the year until his games playing through a knee injury.

We don't have a midfielder who will be rated within the top 10% of their position. That said, there are only 8 midfielders in the league who earn the elite title from CD so it's not the biggest issue, the issue is that we may have no one outside of Newcombe who rates as even above average.

The problem is that the midfield needs more than we can get through the draft alone, so I'm hoping for internal progression to do a lot of work.

What can we salvage out of James Worpel?

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Needs as things stand

A 2nd key forward
Class mid size forward
elite pressure small forward

Quality Ruck ( Both our current rucks currently below the league average in most measurable facets )
2 quality mids

Quality full back.

Now these things could come from internal development and or future drafting, FA or trades.

 

[FB19]

Yes I think the trade thread spiralled me being part of that. So was the target 10-12 first 30 picks in 3 years? Was that 2021-23 Sams first 3 years leading the drafts and was that stated publicly? Keen to comment on our list management strategy as it has been specifically stated. If correct it was always aggressive given a lack of player capital and seems like a more realistic aim over 4 years unless we took drastic measures.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

The concern I have with the list is with a lack of experience.

Losing McEvoy, Gunston, Shiels, Phillips, Hartigan and Mitchell in a single off season is A LOT of missing experience.

Clarko always kept guys like Shiels, Phillips and Hartigan around. Mitchell has done the full clean out.

The only player with any experience we've gotten in is Amon.

We'd better see some guys step up to the leadership plate or we are gonna have a rough time for the next couple of years.

 

[KermitJagger]

The concern I have with the list is with a lack of experience.

Losing McEvoy, Gunston, Shiels, Phillips, Hartigan and Mitchell in a single off season is A LOT of missing experience.

Clarko always kept guys like Shiels, Phillips and Hartigan around. Mitchell has done the full clean out.

The only player with any experience we've gotten in is Amon.

We'd better see some guys step up to the leadership plate or we are gonna have a rough time for the next couple of years.

Mitchell is really trying to prioritise that, it's why he flattened the leadership structure so much. Moore and Lewis became really good leaders.

As a baseline, at least we have experience and leadership across all lines. Breust up forward, Jaegs in the middle and Sicily down back.

 

[burner1]

How can we be even paying 95% of cap given our likely senior (and experienced fringe) player losses, young list and not currently being involved in salary dumps? The salary cap is only 13.1m so 5% really ~650k (ie one good player). But no way there’s a one player difference in our list vs the top 4.

There’s only so much you can do with front loading - particularly when been out of finals for a while (so should have been front loading for a few years already).

The main conclusions is appears we are likely be paying a lot of average players way overs. Probably another reason why we struggle to move players on - anywhere else they go they would be looking at a pay cut.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

The concern I have with the list is with a lack of experience.

Losing McEvoy, Gunston, Shiels, Phillips, Hartigan and Mitchell in a single off season is A LOT of missing experience.

Clarko always kept guys like Shiels, Phillips and Hartigan around. Mitchell has done the full clean out.

The only player with any experience we've gotten in is Amon.

We'd better see some guys step up to the leadership plate or we are gonna have a rough time for the next couple of years.

We have certainly cutaway a lot of experience and we can’t afford to have many injuries next year but on the flipside I think what we currently underrate as Hawthorn supporters is that we have a really large group of players 25 and under who are very tight, who all have a strong belief of where they want to be, what they wanna do together and have bought into what the coach is doing.

This was a evident when they pushed for the succession plan to be scuttled in an attempt to win back a year of a their careers from the possible risk of being coached by someone going through the motions, and it was more evident when I got to see the work that Moorey and Lewis in particular were doing on the track last summer.

We may have a bumpy road in 2022 with leadership, or the pruning that Sam has done along with the flattening of the structure may see leadership blossom quite quickly as the mantra seems to be “we have put no speed limits on where we want to go to.”

I know we use the words “riding the bumps with a grin” infinitely, but I am really looking forward to seeing what this young group can do in the next 2-3 years and how quickly they can rise.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Frost, Hardwick, Sicily, Wingard, Amon, JOM, Mitchell (?) and Breust are all season experienced players.

Worpel, Scrimshaw, Moore and Lewis are fairly experienced players now too.

 

[Slysh]

As of tonight, I’m of the opinion we do not need any more midfielders. We need players with super foot skills who can kick goals.

We already have young midfielders looking for game time that will improve next year ( Jai, Moore, Finn, Ward, McDonald, Worpel & Butler) plus Mitchell and Omeara. That’s 9 players for 4 positions on the ground.

Mitchell is probably going so that makes it 8

Worpel finished the year at VFL level, Butler is a long long way from playing real AFL mid minutes. Moore will spend a bulk of his time as a half forward.

I think we have Jai and Ward as our only true locks going forward in the midfield, I assume MacDonald will continue to develop in to one so that is maybe 3. Finn if he can develop may be something but is very much still a work in progress.

We need a lot of work still in the middle of the ground, desperately need dynamic line breaking midfielders

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Worpel finished the year at VFL level, Butler is a long long way from playing real AFL mid minutes.

Worpel didn’t finish the year at VFL level at all. He popped a shoulder against the Giants in Sydney.

Butler will get midfield minutes in 2023 I have no doubt, it just depends what you mean by “real mid minutes”?

 

[Leather Poisoning]

We have certainly cutaway a lot of experience and we can’t afford to have many injuries next year but on the flipside I think what we currently underrate as Hawthorn supporters is that we have a really large group of players 25 and under who are very tight, who all have a strong belief of where they want to be, what they wanna do together and have bought into what the coach is doing.

This was a evident when they pushed for the succession plan to be scuttled in an attempt to win back a year of a their careers from the possible risk of being coached by someone going through the motions, and it was more evident when I got to see the work that Moorey and Lewis in particular were doing on the track last summer.

We may have a bumpy road in 2022 with leadership, or the pruning that Sam has done along with the flattening of the structure may see leadership blossom quite quickly as the mantra seems to be “we have put no speed limits on where we want to go to.”

I know we use the words “riding the bumps with a grin” infinitely, but I am really looking forward to seeing what this young group can do in the next 2-3 years and how quickly they can rise.

Yep I hear what you're saying. It's a short term strategy.

I just don't want us to end as a side who cut too close to the bone and ended up in the wilderness because the youngsters needed some help.

I believe that Sam has a good read on the leadership of the kids (discipline and knowing what to do and when) but I don't know if they've got the physical maturity to demonstrate in games. So win/losss might take a hit this year and next as this crop comes good.

 

[Slysh]

Worpel didn’t finish the year at VFL level at all. He popped a shoulder against the Giants in Sydney.

Butler will get midfield minutes in 2023 I have no doubt, it just depends what you mean by “real mid minutes”?

More than the odd rotation, he will attend some CBA’s but I’m not banking on him being anything close to a significant part of our midfield brigade any time soon.

 

[KermitJagger]

Mitchell is probably going so that makes it 8

Worpel finished the year at VFL level, Butler is a long long way from playing real AFL mid minutes. Moore will spend a bulk of his time as a half forward.

I think we have Jai and Ward as our only true locks going forward in the midfield, I assume MacDonald will continue to develop in to one so that is maybe 3. Finn if he can develop may be something but is very much still a work in progress.

We need a lot of work still in the middle of the ground, desperately need dynamic line breaking midfielders

Moore is going to be more of a midfielder than a half forward from next year. That's where he was placed to finish the season, and Mitchell said he sees him as a midfielder that goes forward and not the other way around.

Though I agree we need more midfielders, I do think there's a lot of unknowns particularly with Wingard and Worpel not featuring prominently, and the rapid improvement of other players like Nash and Maginness.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I actually really like the rawness of our list right now, and the only thing I really think we lack is another 1-2 class breakaway mids and a better than average tall forward to plonk next to Lewis, which I’m hoping Ramsden can become under the tutelage of Hale.

We’ve transformed our list in a little over 2 off-seasons from one with not much upside.

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Moore is going to be more of a midfielder than a half forward from next year. That's where he was placed to finish the season, and Mitchell said he sees him as a midfielder that goes forward and not the other way around.

Though I agree we need more midfielders, I do think there's a lot of unknowns particularly with Wingard and Worpel not featuring prominently, and the rapid improvement of other players like Nash and Maginness.

My concern with Chad is that his soft tissue injuries might prevent him from ever really makng it as a mid. Wonder whether we are better trying to reduce his inujuries and keep him as an x factor forward to get more games from him both short and long term?

Worps is currently a poor man's Jai and not sure he will get any better than that; and whilst Nash and Maginness are both developing nicely and likely to have roles, neither will be A grade, let alone elite, which is what we need more of in the centre square and on the wing.