2022 Hawthorn List Management Discussion (including Trade, FA period)

[Mr Meeseeks]

As of tonight, I’m of the opinion we do not need any more midfielders. We need players with super foot skills who can kick goals.

We already have young midfielders looking for game time that will improve next year ( Jai, Moore, Finn, Ward, McDonald, Worpel & Butler) plus Mitchell and Omeara. That’s 9 players for 4 positions on the ground.

Moore is unproven as a full time midfielder and even if he can do it Im not sure we should. He is elite as a small forward, he has that unteachable goal kicking knack and Im not sure we want to take that away..
Finn and Worpel can be good servants but are they part of a premiership midfield?
Mitchell is likely gone and OMeara has 2 or 3 good years left.
Butler may have it but like Moore, can he play as a full time mid? Unproven

I think McDonald does have it. So if we are looking forward and hoping to have a premiership winning midfield, we do desperately need some help there. Ward, CMac and Newcombe are the only ones who could turn into elite full time midfielders.

Defence is excellent. Forward looks good if we can get a partner for Lewis as Brocky, Butler and Moore can all be strong forwards. Ruck is young but both Reeves and Ramsden could be anything.

I still think we need mids mids mids. Or Cadman!

 

[Books]

The Jackson deal is done.
This means the Meek deal is clear for take-off.
It also means the Grundy deal can happen, which in turn will allow the Mitchell deal to happen.
So we can expect some movement soon.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Mitchell is probably going so that makes it 8

Worpel finished the year at VFL level, Butler is a long long way from playing real AFL mid minutes. Moore will spend a bulk of his time as a half forward.

I think we have Jai and Ward as our only true locks going forward in the midfield, I assume MacDonald will continue to develop in to one so that is maybe 3. Finn if he can develop may be something but is very much still a work in progress.

We need a lot of work still in the middle of the ground, desperately need dynamic line breaking midfielders

Don't be surprised to see Moore spending more time in the middle with Butler, Wingard, Saunders and Brockman playing more minutes across half forward.

Also quietly confident we might use one of our (rumoured) second round selections on Kostanty or Charlie Clark. I rate both highly as young small forwards.

 

[Roddy]

If we land Meek, I’d say we will have landed on our feet after BB’s retirement, we’ll have Noodle, Lynch, Ramsden and Meek. Obviously we still really don’t know how good any of them truly are yet…

 

[Dewnior]

I trust Mitch and his assistants will look at a lots of different options for the midfield. There's definitely enough raw talent to run through there and I suspect we may unearth another 1 or 2 high level midfielders from the current group but it's going to take a few development years.

 

[Hawthorn2023]

Midfield squad;

Moore, Wingard, Maginness, Nash, Ward, Worpel, Morrisson, Newcombe, Amon, Day, MacDonald, Bramble, Saunders + 2 new draftees

Now, we go to work..

 

[theiaofseed]

If all the rumored trades get done we've only got 6 players over the age of 25.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

If all the rumored trades get done we've only got 6 players over the age of 25.

Mind boggling really.

 

[hamohawk1]

If Mitchell and/ or JOM go tomorrow its going to be a bloody young list next year.

Would be thinking its pretty much bottoming out completely over the next 12 months and go from there.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

If Mitchell and/ or JOM go tomorrow its going to be a bloody young list next year.

Would be thinking its pretty much bottoming out completely over the next 12 months and go from there.

Yup nearly bottom 3 locks if both go.

 

[crazywildhorse]

I recently listened to a podcast on how getting a playing group who grow and gain experience together is significantly more valuable than having a few stars. A concept I've heard explained in the past, but had forgotten about—I'm sure it's been discussed here also. For those who don't know what I am talking about, research, it seems, shows the more players involved in a team, the less important a star player becomes. Instead, attention should be placed on finding "worse" players that have an elite skill that can be employed. By gaining experience together, players learn how to rely on these unusual skill sets and therefore have more strength across the field. The 2013-2015 side was totally arranged this way.

Anyway, the reason I say all this is because I feel like this is what Mitchell and his crew seem to be doing. They really want to invest in developing a core of good, but not superstar players first.

 

[Stottzy]

I recently listened to a podcast on how getting a playing group who grow and gain experience together is significantly more valuable than having a few stars. A concept I've heard explained in the past, but had forgotten about—I'm sure it's been discussed here also. For those who don't know what I am talking about, research, it seems, shows the more players involved in a team, the less important a star player becomes. Instead, attention should be placed on finding "worse" players that have an elite skill that can be employed. By gaining experience together, players learn how to rely on these unusual skill sets and therefore have more strength across the field. The 2013-2015 side was totally arranged this way.

Anyway, the reason I say all this is because I feel like this is what Mitchell and his crew seem to be doing. They really want to invest in developing a core of good, but not superstar players first.

Yeah..... Didn't hurt having Hodge, Franklin, Roughead, Lewis, Cyril in that side too.

 

[hamohawk1]

I recently listened to a podcast on how getting a playing group who grow and gain experience together is significantly more valuable than having a few stars. A concept I've heard explained in the past, but had forgotten about—I'm sure it's been discussed here also. For those who don't know what I am talking about, research, it seems, shows the more players involved in a team, the less important a star player becomes. Instead, attention should be placed on finding "worse" players that have an elite skill that can be employed. By gaining experience together, players learn how to rely on these unusual skill sets and therefore have more strength across the field. The 2013-2015 side was totally arranged this way.

Anyway, the reason I say all this is because I feel like this is what Mitchell and his crew seem to be doing. They really want to invest in developing a core of good, but not superstar players first.

Swings and roundabouts though. For every Hawthorn, Geelong, Richmond built on foundations with high degree of talent theres GWS, North (they've been down the bottom for 3 years now) not to mention Gold Coast where the talents come in but it didnt reach success.

If we can get a minimum of 3/4 elite players from the next 1-2 drafts, keep them and keep a good culture it gives us a good shot but its also a brave move considering its putting us in the doldrums for another 2-3 years minimum.

 

[crazywildhorse]

Yeah..... Didn't hurt having Hodge, Franklin, Roughead, Lewis, Cyril in that side too.

No, it didn't. But the argument would sort of go back to how would those guys fare without a Suckling, Hale or Stratton type that were excellent role players but not necessarily great alone.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Yeah..... Didn't hurt having Hodge, Franklin, Roughead, Lewis, Cyril in that side too.

Yeah no point us comparing anything now to 13-15, it's simply unlikely we'll ever get that top end talent again.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

If all the rumored trades get done we've only got 6 players over the age of 25.

Interesting stat I heard tonight which I need to verify, but it went something like...

In 2008 we had an average list age of 23 and 57 games.
Heading into 2023 we'll have an average age of around 23 and just under 50 games.

I think Sam values young groups who can build together.

 

[Hawthorn2023]

If these trades eventuate, and we end up with 3 or 4 picks inside 25, fantastic result.

Don't underestimate this squad, they might be young, but this group will make each other accountable.

 

[KermitJagger]

Interesting stat I heard tonight which I need to verify, but it went something like...

In 2008 we had an average list age of 23 and 57 games.
Heading into 2023 we'll have an average age of around 23 and just under 50 games.

I think Sam values young groups who can build together.

I like to look at blokes like Lewis, Moore and Nash, all it took for them to take the next step was a wide open position in the team and some confidence to make their mark. They also released some pretty smooth hits back in the 60s.

 

[wahawk]

I like to look at blokes like Lewis, Moore and Nash, all it took for them to take the next step was a wide open position in the team and some confidence to make their mark. They also released some pretty smooth hits back in the 60s.

Yeah I’ve been thinking that if we lose JOM & Tom then our midfielders might take the next step as they don’t have the old heads there to be scared (for want of a better word) of
They might take risks that they wouldn’t take with those 2 there.

Edit; I don’t know that I’m explaining this right, but I know what I mean

 

[KermitJagger]

Yeah I’ve been thinking that if we lose JOM & Tom then our midfielders might take the next step as they don’t have the old heads there to be scared (for want of a better word) of
They might take risks that they wouldn’t take with those 2 there.

Edit; I don’t know that I’m explaining this right, but I know what I mean

Ownership of the roles, I get it. They can play like it's their spot in the team and not feeling like they're just keeping a more senior players spot warm.

 

[Hawkers Hero]

Whilst a loss of experience will hurt, one advantage I see in cutting so deep this year is we have essentially rid the team of 'the Clarkson way' of playing from the list so there can be full buy in of Sam's more attacking approach.

We saw it this year in some of the older heads the natural instinct to stop and look sideways or down the line and not take on the riskier option whilst the younger guys who came up with Sam at Box Hill played with more freedom.

The only older guy left on the list are either attacking players by role (i.e. Breust and Chad) or naturally attacking players like Sicily

 

[theiaofseed]

We lose McEvoy, Gunston, O'Merea and Mitchell from our best 22.

McEvoy played 8 games - Reeves and Meek is a stronger duo than anything we played last year.
Gunston played 16 games - Even in 2021 when Gunston didn't play we still didn't win the spoon. Wingard coming back will make up for his lose
Omerea and Mitchell out, Amon in and if Worpel gains back form those two loses will be negated.

 

[Stottzy]

No, it didn't. But the argument would sort of go back to how would those guys fare without a Suckling, Hale or Stratton type that were excellent role players but not necessarily great alone.

I would argue though you need to start with getting the best and a backbone, then start worrying about ya role players.

 

[H00t]

I would argue though you need to start with getting the best and a backbone, then start worrying about ya role players.

There definitely is synergy between them. But I agree role players have it much easier when the best players are playing well and they can just focus on doing their bit.

We see it all the time where good players look so much better in a great team. But take them out of that team and they don’t produce nearly as well

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Interesting stat I heard tonight which I need to verify, but it went something like...

In 2008 we had an average list age of 23 and 57 games.
Heading into 2023 we'll have an average age of around 23 and just under 50 games.

I think Sam values young groups who can build together.

Age is just a number when the kids are extremely talented, but pointless comparing it to the under 25 crop we had in 2008.