2022 Hawthorn List Management Discussion (including Trade, FA period)

[play2win]

I'm rarely the voice of pessimism on this board, but I would imagine the loss of Mitchell, O'Meara, McEvoy and to a lesser extent Shiels offsets the gain of an additional ruck.

Our midfield could definitely be more competitive and dynamic next season, but that's more on my optimism about Sam's coaching and the spark that can be provided by younger players in the right situation. It should be a hope more than an expectation that our midfield will be better.

I expect our current midfield crop to get better each year. Don’t really care if they are ‘better’ than the 2022 crop, that just seems an irrelevant comparison to me. I would suggest the club also expects to see continuous improvement rather than just hope it happens.

 

[KermitJagger]

I expect our current midfield crop to get better each year. Don’t really care if they are ‘better’ than the 2022 crop, that just seems an irrelevant comparison to me. I would suggest the club also expects to see continuous improvement rather than just hope it happens.

I agree, but I'm not the one who made the comparison.

 

[hawkinoz]

I agree with Slainte.

Essentially last year was a bust for McEvoy due to injury.

We now have a more developed Reeves and have brought in Meek. We should have better cover now and it will hopefully be the ruck division that takes us into the future. Good article on the AFL website about how we attracted Meek. Looks like Sam really wanted him!

Sam's commitment in every action he does shines through.This should rub on to the group and expect lot of surprises in 2023

Why in-demand ruckman chose Hawks as opportunity beckons

Lloyd Meek is after more opportunities at the Hawks, and he's ready to fight for his spot

www.afl.com.au

 

[theiaofseed]

No, it just isn't 2015 anymore.

Would've kicked 40 goals last year, yep so shit.

 

[Topiary]

I'm rarely the voice of pessimism on this board, but I would imagine the loss of Mitchell, O'Meara, McEvoy and to a lesser extent Shiels offsets the gain of an additional ruck.

Our midfield could definitely be more competitive and dynamic next season, but that's more on my optimism about Sam's coaching and the spark that can be provided by younger players in the right situation. It should be a hope more than an expectation that our midfield will be better.

Can some one please tell me what contribution the said experience made to our performance last year ??

 

[KermitJagger]

Can some one please tell me what contribution the said experience made to our performance last year ??

I'll put it as simply as I can.

Despite our midfield being bad last year, it shouldn't be an expectation that our midfield will automatically improve this year given the player losses. It might, and I have high hope that it will, but given that we've only just lost our two most prolific clearance mids, our #1 ruck and captain, there's a good chance it won't.

Anyone saying that our midfield on paper right now isn't a weakness is wrong. It definitely is. It's the biggest weakness we have by a fair margin. It might not be if some players really kick on this year, but at to quote roughly 93% of your posts, at the moment "we need more talent, we need more X Factor, we need more A Graders".

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Would've kicked 40 goals last year, yep so s**t.

Mate no one outside of deluded Hawthorn fans are calling Chad Wingard an AA standard forward going into 2023, just absolute nonsense.

 

[theiaofseed]

Mate no one outside of deluded Hawthorn fans are calling Chad Wingard an AA standard forward going into 2023, just absolute nonsense.

Why would I care what other fans think? He was 8th for small forwards in goals per game.

You're gonna sit there and say being top ten in your position isn't good? A whole .2 goals less per game than Breust but I guess Breust is also not a quality player?

 

[Topiary]

I'll put it as simply as I can.

Despite our midfield being bad last year, it shouldn't be an expectation that our midfield will automatically improve this year given the player losses. It might, and I have high hope that it will, but given that we've only just lost our two most prolific clearance mids, our #1 ruck and captain, there's a good chance it won't.

Anyone saying that our midfield on paper right now isn't a weakness is wrong. It definitely is. It's the biggest weakness we have by a fair margin. It might not be if some players really kick on this year, but at to quote roughly 93% of your posts, at the moment "we need more talent, we need more X Factor, we need more A Graders".

Oh come on. I am not suggesting for one moment the loss of experience won’t affect the outcome. BUT, no one can tell me what the players being moved on, who generated the said “experience”, will impact the team or how it will impact the team ??

Is it at best, as you would suggest, only balanced by what contribution these so called “experienced” players made, against how our young players in the midfield in particular can improve.

By the way, your assertion I continue to call for “xfactor” is correct. Do you want us to be pedestrian or do you feel best or better is best ??

 

[Iceman!]

Why would I care what other fans think? He was 8th for small forwards in goals per game.

You're gonna sit there and say being top ten in your position isn't good? A whole .2 goals less per game than Breust but I guess Breust is also not a quality player?

Don’t shift the goal posts, you said he was AA quality, he isn’t quite that anymore. No one is saying he is trash.

At his best he is outstanding, we unfortunately just haven’t seen enough of it

 

[Tomohawks]

I like Wingard and he's top 10 in his position when fit but with his age and recent injury history working against him, I'm afraid we may have seen the best of him. He's in my starting 18 round one if he's fully fit but I won't hold my breath that he is though.

 

[KermitJagger]

Oh come on. I am not suggesting for one moment the loss of experience won’t affect the outcome. BUT, no one can tell me what the players being moved on, who generated the said “experience”, will impact the team or how it will impact the team ??

Is it at best, as you would suggest, only balanced by what contribution these so called “experienced” players made, against how our young players in the midfield in particular can improve.

By the way, your assertion I continue to call for “xfactor” is correct. Do you want us to be pedestrian or do you feel best or better is best ??

I honestly have no idea what you're asking as I've given you a good explanation of what the impacts would be. Despite the line up never really working, it will impact the midfield because O'Meara and Mitchell led our team in pretty much every key midfielder stat - contested possession, ground ball gets, centre clearances, overall clearances. The quality of those stats aside, for our midfield to improve we need to at worst make up for those lost stats and at best improve on then. That may prove difficult in the short term considering a fair few of our midfielders are fairly young, new to the club or both. O'Meara and McEvoy were also key leaders at the club, so there are those intangible impacts as well.

So, like I said, you can be optimistic that the midfield will improve (which I am) but objectively it's unlikely. That makes it our biggest weakness, particularly in comparison to our forward line and backline where our best players are already established, yet young, with enough established form to bet on continuing improvement. With the midfield our best performed players are gone, and it's more hope that existing players on the list will meet that standard.

 

[arupist]

When you replace one lost soldier with another, you would expect the new soldier to accumulate his own kill tally.

TOM's lost stats, say 30 disposals, will be covered somewhat by his replacement. Eventually the coverage will be total. We simply need to give time to the replacement. Worpel steps up, and together with Newc and Ward, we have 3 25+ possession winners already.

I don't think we will be impacted too greatly with this loss of experience other than getting the games and miles into the young blokes. Don't forget we did SFA the last two seasons with all that experience. Can't do much worse.

My feeling is that Dorothy has landed us in Oz and we are already on the journey along the Yellow Brick Road. The bitch fight over a pair of shoes is done. The witch is dead. We have picked up our own scarecrow, lion and tin man. Next stop - the Emerald City.

 

[killerspud]

When you replace one lost soldier with another, you would expect the new soldier to accumulate his own kill tally.

TOM's lost stats, say 30 disposals, will be covered somewhat by his replacement. Eventually the coverage will be total. We simply need to give time to the replacement. Worpel steps up, and together with Newc and Ward, we have 3 25+ possession winners already.

I don't think we will be impacted too greatly with this loss of experience other than getting the games and miles into the young blokes. Don't forget we did SFA the last two seasons with all that experience. Can't do much worse.

My feeling is that Dorothy has landed us in Oz and we are already on the journey along the Yellow Brick Road. The bitch fight over a pair of shoes is done. The witch is dead. We have picked up our own scarecrow, lion and tin man. Next stop - the Emerald City.

I'll see you on the dark side of the moon

 

[BurnaHawks]

Mate no one outside of deluded Hawthorn fans are calling Chad Wingard an AA standard forward going into 2023, just absolute nonsense.

I'm sure Mrs Wingard has high hopes for him this year.

 

[kirbatron]

Re the midfield. the stats will be replaced. I'm more curious & excited to see the new system.

meek/Reeves full season
has newk burst improved?
the starting 3
how we transition the ball to the outside
exiting from stoppage
handball to kick ratio
who sinks who swims

my expectation is a few years but next year is about seeing snippets of this.

 

[TylerDurden]

I'll put it as simply as I can.

Despite our midfield being bad last year, it shouldn't be an expectation that our midfield will automatically improve this year given the player losses. It might, and I have high hope that it will, but given that we've only just lost our two most prolific clearance mids, our #1 ruck and captain, there's a good chance it won't.

Anyone saying that our midfield on paper right now isn't a weakness is wrong. It definitely is. It's the biggest weakness we have by a fair margin. It might not be if some players really kick on this year, but at to quote roughly 93% of your posts, at the moment "we need more talent, we need more X Factor, we need more A Graders".

Our overall ruck position has improved for mine. Providing they stay on the park.
Rucking Nash and Kosi last year was a deadset debacle.

Factor in Amon, as a top winger in the league.

Does Chad make it back in there?

Stephens is also a unknown quantity.
McKenzie could hit the ground running.

There's a lot of what ifs at this stage.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I honestly have no idea what you're asking as I've given you a good explanation of what the impacts would be. Despite the line up never really working, it will impact the midfield because O'Meara and Mitchell led our team in pretty much every key midfielder stat - contested possession, ground ball gets, centre clearances, overall clearances. The quality of those stats aside, for our midfield to improve we need to at worst make up for those lost stats and at best improve on then. That may prove difficult in the short term considering a fair few of our midfielders are fairly young, new to the club or both. O'Meara and McEvoy were also key leaders at the club, so there are those intangible impacts as well.

So, like I said, you can be optimistic that the midfield will improve (which I am) but objectively it's unlikely. That makes it our biggest weakness, particularly in comparison to our forward line and backline where our best players are already established, yet young, with enough established form to bet on continuing improvement. With the midfield our best performed players are gone, and it's more hope that existing players on the list will meet that standard.

I wasn't against the Mitchell trade but if you look at it from a pure list management position we were the worst contested ball team last year (we really stunk at it) and we now go into 2023 without our only truely AFL quality pure inside mid (I classify Newk as more a inside/outside mid).

Adding Meek and a fit Reeves will help but I agree it's a big ask to expect the likes of Ward, Mackenzie, etc to replace Mitchell's output next year (and to a lesser extent JOMs).

Contested ball is still where we will win or lose games next year (especially centre bounces) and I think it will take a couple of years to get that part of the ground right.

Mind you someone like Ward could make a massive step up next year but I think inside mids need at least 3 years to build their body to cope with the physical demands of playing that position in the AFL.

 

[KermitJagger]

There's a lot of what ifs at this stage.

This is exactly what I was saying.

This whole conversation started because I disagreed with someone that our midfield was fine and that our forward line is the worry. There are more what ifs for our midfield.

 

[Topiary]

This is exactly what I was saying.

This whole conversation started because I disagreed with someone that our midfield was fine and that our forward line is the worry. There are more what ifs for our midfield.

I never said our midfield was fine. Don’t keep taking me out of context.

What I did ask, was what the experienced trio being replaced had contributed to our results.

I expect the work to improve our midfield will continue, at full pace, but I never said it was a fait accompli.

I am clearly on the record as having significant concerns about the forward set up. It is a massive work in progress.

So some context please.

 

[KermitJagger]

I never said our midfield was fine. Don’t keep taking me out of context.

What I did ask, was what the experienced trio being replaced had contributed to our results.

I expect the work to improve our midfield will continue, at full pace, but I never said it was a fait accompli.

I am clearly on the record as having significant concerns about the forward set up. It is a massive work in progress.

So some context please.

I'm not taking you out of context, the thread just didn't start when you decided to comment.

 

[Accipiter]

I honestly have no idea what you're asking as I've given you a good explanation of what the impacts would be. Despite the line up never really working, it will impact the midfield because O'Meara and Mitchell led our team in pretty much every key midfielder stat - contested possession, ground ball gets, centre clearances, overall clearances. The quality of those stats aside, for our midfield to improve we need to at worst make up for those lost stats and at best improve on then. That may prove difficult in the short term considering a fair few of our midfielders are fairly young, new to the club or both. O'Meara and McEvoy were also key leaders at the club, so there are those intangible impacts as well.

So, like I said, you can be optimistic that the midfield will improve (which I am) but objectively it's unlikely. That makes it our biggest weakness, particularly in comparison to our forward line and backline where our best players are already established, yet young, with enough established form to bet on continuing improvement. With the midfield our best performed players are gone, and it's more hope that existing players on the list will meet that standard.

Love chewing on all of this, can't wait to look back on it in several years - great stuff !!!

If I may add my thoughts I'm so keen to see efficiency in the game-plan and its execution. The stats above are critical, but in addition I'm thinking about how many possessions we need to enact some of the set-plays. I think we all agree that the quality of the kicking is heading skywards so are we going to implement more of a kicking game, meaning less possessions and a different ratio on the stats sheet?

Its for this reason I'm not as concerned about the stats at this stage (other than probably contested-possession and the like) until we understand the new game-style. But of course the game-style will need to be built around what our fwd-line can do. For me our recruiting in this years draft will tell the story - Mitch Lewis is so incredibly important to this side now.

So my crystal ball still has us firmly in development mode until midway through 2024, when I expect we will begin the march ....

 

[Slainte]

I wasn't against the Mitchell trade but if you look at it from a pure list management position we were the worst contested ball team last year (we really stunk at it) and we now go into 2023 without our only truely AFL quality pure inside mid (I classify Newk as more a inside/outside mid).

Adding Meek and a fit Reeves will help but I agree it's a big ask to expect the likes of Ward, Mackenzie, etc to replace Mitchell's output next year (and to a lesser extent JOMs).

Contested ball is still where we will win or lose games next year (especially centre bounces) and I think it will take a couple of years to get that part of the ground right.

Mind you someone like Ward could make a massive step up next year but I think inside mids need at least 3 years to build their body to cope with the physical demands of playing that position in the AFL.

Contested ball is a complex art. TM was good at extraction but his distribution (while looking OK in the stats) was poor. JOM was a handy extractor but just an average distributor. I think there is a fair chance that we get better distribution from the kids.

 

[TylerDurden]

Contested ball is a complex art. TM was good at extraction but his distribution (while looking OK in the stats) was poor. JOM was a handy extractor but just an average distributor. I think there is a fair chance that we get better distribution from the kids.

Tom has never been the same post leg break. I stand by it.
His 2018 was phenomenal.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Contested ball is a complex art. TM was good at extraction but his distribution (while looking OK in the stats) was poor. JOM was a handy extractor but just an average distributor. I think there is a fair chance that we get better distribution from the kids.

I agree TMs ball use dropped off since his knee injury but one thing he could still do was win the ball. And if you have to ball the opposition doesn't.

Like I said now Tom is gone we don't have one proven contested ball winner in the list.

Plenty of young mids that could become that but that is still not a given, just a possibility.

Makes me a little surprised we didn't target a mid twenties inside mid in the draft but I guess we still have one spot on the list so it could still happen