2022 Hawthorn List Management Discussion (including Trade, FA period)

[WWSD]

Midfield is a work in progress still going to be a mess. It will take a bit of time for us to build this midfield possibly 1 or 2 seasons being optimistic

Day and C.MacDonald being part of the new-look midfield rotation this year will help immensely.

 

[theiaofseed]

Our midfield is underrated in it's progress.

Amon, Ward, Newcombe, Moore is already a solid 4. With Day, MacDonald, Worpel, Mackenzie pushing claims.

We have 3 AA quality forwards in Breust, Wingard and Lewis.

This whole it's going to take years is more in line with woe is me than actual analysis.

 

[cryptor]

Yeah we do need Kosi to come good and someone like Brockman with Wingard and Moore it should be sufficient for the time being

I reckon he's already come good and he just needs a clear run at it.

Showed in his first year as a forward with little AFL forward training that he could stand up and be the main big forward. He then dealt with injury/illness early last year and then had to spend half the season helping out in the ruck. But still managed to average over a goal a game across his season.

In the period between round 6 to 9, before his season was derailed by having to help cover our lack of fit rucks, he kicked 3.0, 4.0, 2.0, 2.1. All games that had him sharing a forward line with a combination of Gunston/Callow/Lewis.

So I reckon he'll show early that he can play well alongside Lewis and remain threatening even when Lewis is out of the forward 50.

 

[Iceman!]

Our midfield is underrated in it's progress.

Amon, Ward, Newcombe, Moore is already a solid 4. With Day, MacDonald, Worpel, Mackenzie pushing claims.

We have 3 AA quality forwards in Breust, Wingard and Lewis.

This whole it's going to take years is more in line with woe is me than actual analysis.

Every list in the comp could name 4 capable midfielders especially when one of those 4 (Moore) is still transitioning in to a midfielder.

Also Wingard has not made an AA team since 2015, he is not an AA quality player anymore.

Expecting it to take time is not a woe is me attitude just because it is a different view of the list.

 

[HedgeFund]

We have 3 AA quality forwards in Breust, Wingard and Lewis.

Righto.

Lewis - 0 All Australian nominations (let alone blazers)
Bruest - 2 - 2014 & 2018
Wingard - 2 - 2013 & 2015

It’s now 2023 - so no, we don’t have 3 AA quality forwards.

That’s more than a stretch.

 

[Dewnior]

One consistent key forward is still one more than most teams in the league to be fair. The midfield is a much, much bigger issue.

It's likely we already have the midfield pieces and just need time/experience. I don't think we have all the pieces for the forward line.

 

[theiaofseed]

Every list in the comp could name 4 capable midfielders especially when one of those 4 (Moore) is still transitioning in to a midfielder.

Also Wingard has not made an AA team since 2015, he is not an AA quality player anymore.

Expecting it to take time is not a woe is me attitude just because it is a different view of the list.

Its 100% that mentality "the grass in greener on the other side".

More averaged 25 touches and 4.6 clearances when played as a mid in the last 2 months of footy that's not "transitioning" those are elite midfield numbers

Wingard last season if he played a full season goes close to kicking 40 goals for the season, the amount of unfair criticism he cops is mind numbing.

 

[FB19]

Its 100% that mentality "the grass in greener on the other side".

More averaged 25 touches and 4.6 clearances when played as a mid in the last 2 months of footy that's not "transitioning" those are elite midfield numbers

Wingard last season if he played a full season goes close to kicking 40 goals for the season, the amount of unfair criticism he cops is mind numbing.

I have both a positive view of where we are headed and a tempered view of how quickly it will be achieved. I feel like this year will be difficult with a new midfield group with limited individual and collective experience together, but that’s ok. I feel like our forward line is missing 1 or 2 pieces that we may already have on the list, but again needs time to develop individually and collectively and that’s ok. 2023 is an exciting year for me even if we finish last providing you see tangible evidence of the game plan, direction and development. An absolute premium draft pick won’t hurt either. We will be a much more formidable side once the last 2 drafts have 30-50 games racked up alongside more draft talent and hopefully cherry picking the free agents we need. That’s my take and some others too, although not seemingly the majority who are more optimistic,
Ultimately they are just opinions and of course I am happy to be wrong.

 

[Slainte]

The midfield weakness is grossly exaggerated IMV.

Worpel is a PCM winner. Newcombe has been recognised as one of the best young mids in the comp. Maginess had a break-up season in 2022 and we have two top 10 picks and another first rounder competing for spots as well as an Irishman who has demonstrated he can offer something different and is on a positive trajectory.

That is before you get to the depth of our rotations or the blue skies prospects like Weddle.

Just as important as the midfield talent, we finally have a functional ruck trio.

Those who expect us to be smashed in the midfield are in for a pleasant surprise (or unpleasant flor those who would prefer to be vindicated that to enjoy success).

The forward half lacks depth. It is not hopeless by any means but injuries to Lewis, Breust and Moore would leave us pretty thin.

 

[Iceman!]

Its 100% that mentality "the grass in greener on the other side".

More averaged 25 touches and 4.6 clearances when played as a mid in the last 2 months of footy that's not "transitioning" those are elite midfield numbers

Wingard last season if he played a full season goes close to kicking 40 goals for the season, the amount of unfair criticism he cops is mind numbing.

No it is transitioning because he has done it for a couple months, he is a great young player. But you named a core group of 4 players one of which is a 2nd year player and another has played 2 months as a midfielder. That screams growing pains.

Also iam not criticising Wingard, but you are calling him AA level when he has not made it in 7 years, has had constant body issues. I hope he makes it back to his best, but realistically he has not been an AA player for years now and it is unlikely we see him reach those heights.

 

[Iceman!]

The midfield weakness is grossly exaggerated IMV.

Worpel is a PCM winner. Newcombe has been recognised as one of the best young mids in the comp. Maginess had a break-up season in 2022 and we have two top 10 picks and another first rounder competing for spots as well as an Irishman who has demonstrated he can offer something different and is on a positive trajectory.

That is before you get to the depth of our rotations or the blue skies prospects like Weddle.

Just as important as the midfield talent, we finally have a functional ruck trio.

Those who expect us to be smashed in the midfield are in for a pleasant surprise (or unpleasant flor those who would prefer to be vindicated that to enjoy success).

The forward half lacks depth. It is not hopeless by any means but injuries to Lewis, Breust and Moore would leave us pretty thin.

Worpel was fringe 22 and has been average for a few years now, Newcombe is a gun. Finn found a role and no one else has proven anything yet (Ward shown good signs). Don't get me wrong it has promise but it is hugely inexperienced. Young and inexperienced midfield's tend to struggle, if it doesn't it will be an outlier.

 

[theiaofseed]

No it is transitioning because he has done it for a couple months, he is a great young player. But you named a core group of 4 players one of which is a 2nd year player and another has played 2 months as a midfielder. That screams growing pains.

Also iam not criticising Wingard, but you are calling him AA level when he has not made it in 7 years, has had constant body issues. I hope he makes it back to his best, but realistically he has not been an AA player for years now and it is unlikely we see him reach those heights.

No one arguing this group wont have growing pains but if your baseline is believing 2 years is being optimistic for a competitive midfield you drunk the media bullshit

 

[Iceman!]

No one arguing this group wont have growing pains but if your baseline is believing 2-3 years is being optimistic for a competitive midfield you drunk the media bullshit

Well i agree that projecting anymore than 24 months ahead is almost a waste of time, so agree with that.

Not sure our midfield is underrated though. We have 2-3 midfielders i am confident will be somewhere between good to elite for the next 5 + years and that i Ward, Newcombe and Moore. Plenty of others have potential, but in terms of proven talent we are lacking. I think it is fair to have big question marks over it until we see them in action.

 

[tommyk72]

I reckon he's already come good and he just needs a clear run at it.

Showed in his first year as a forward with little AFL forward training that he could stand up and be the main big forward. He then dealt with injury/illness early last year and then had to spend half the season helping out in the ruck. But still managed to average over a goal a game across his season.

In the period between round 6 to 9, before his season was derailed by having to help cover our lack of fit rucks, he kicked 3.0, 4.0, 2.0, 2.1. All games that had him sharing a forward line with a combination of Gunston/Callow/Lewis.

So I reckon he'll show early that he can play well alongside Lewis and remain threatening even when Lewis is out of the forward 50.

I desperately hope you’re right. If Kozzie could produce what he’s shown he’s capable of on a consistent basis it would be brilliant. Really would take us a step closer to finals.

 

[KermitJagger]

It's likely we already have the midfield pieces and just need time/experience. I don't think we have all the pieces for the forward line.

Well the point is that you need to pick your battles. I've seen teams with average forward lines win flags, but I've never seen a team win a flag with an average midfield. The other thing is that you can't really know how good your forward line is until they're getting AFL standard supply which ours haven't for a few years now.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Righto.

Lewis - 0 All Australian nominations (let alone blazers)
Bruest - 2 - 2014 & 2018
Wingard - 2 - 2013 & 2015

It’s now 2023 - so no, we don’t have 3 AA quality forwards.

That’s more than a stretch.

I'd like to enact the 'Sicily Rule'. All Australian isn't a measure of elite talent.

Dylan Moore was 'All Australian' quality last year but Tom 'I know I only played 15 games and statistically averaged less than Dylan' Papley just HAD to get a squad position instead.

 

[HedgeFund]

Just as important as the midfield talent, we finally have a functional ruck trio.

Please explain.

2022: McEvoy (244 games) / Reeves (5) / Lynch (3)

2023: Meek (15) / Reeves (17) / Lynch (10)

How is this “finally” a functional ruck trio when we just retired McEvoy?

 

[Nathan Detroit]

Please explain.

2022: McEvoy (244 games) / Reeves (5) / Lynch (3)

2023: Meek (15) / Reeves (17) / Lynch (10)

How is this “finally” a functional ruck trio when we just retired McEvoy?

Well, to be fair, there was a slight injury issue keeping the three of them unavailable for the VAST majority of matches last season.

 

[Slainte]

Please explain.

2022: McEvoy (244 games) / Reeves (5) / Lynch (3)

2023: Meek (15) / Reeves (17) / Lynch (10)

How is this “finally” a functional ruck trio when we just retired McEvoy?

First, we didn't retire McEvoy - it was entirely his decision.

As he well understood, his body was no longer up to it.

Last year there were periods when we had to ruck Kosi and Nash, neither or whom are suited.

We now have three good-sized rucks who are approaching an age when we can expect them to have an impact or at least square contests.

It is a vastly improved situation that will make our midfield more competitive.

 

[ACTion Hawks]

I agree with Slainte.

Essentially last year was a bust for McEvoy due to injury.

We now have a more developed Reeves and have brought in Meek. We should have better cover now and it will hopefully be the ruck division that takes us into the future. Good article on the AFL website about how we attracted Meek. Looks like Sam really wanted him!

 

[KermitJagger]

First, we didn't retire McEvoy - it was entirely his decision.

As he well understood, his body was no longer up to it.

Last year there were periods when we had to ruck Kosi and Nash, neither or whom are suited.

We now have three good-sized rucks who are approaching an age when we can expect them to have an impact or at least square contests.

It is a vastly improved situation that will make our midfield more competitive.

I'm rarely the voice of pessimism on this board, but I would imagine the loss of Mitchell, O'Meara, McEvoy and to a lesser extent Shiels offsets the gain of an additional ruck.

Our midfield could definitely be more competitive and dynamic next season, but that's more on my optimism about Sam's coaching and the spark that can be provided by younger players in the right situation. It should be a hope more than an expectation that our midfield will be better.

 

[Noel Gallagher]

I'm rarely the voice of pessimism on this board, but I would imagine the loss of Mitchell, O'Meara, McEvoy and to a lesser extent Shiels offsets the gain of an additional ruck.

Our midfield could definitely be more competitive and dynamic next season, but that's more on my optimism about Sam's coaching and the spark that can be provided by younger players in the right situation. It should be a hope more than an expectation that our midfield will be better.

Can’t argue this - well said

Having said that, I honestly can’t help but feel that our midfield will be far more competitive this year. We are essentially replacing ageing warriors with much younger and bigger / fitter players who are all vying for a spot in the midfield. This young group are alot more dynamic in terms of their speed and flexibility which will make us far more unpredictable than the last 2-3 years

 

[peetoo]

I think there’ll be green shoots….but plenty of compost.

They may even leave youngsters in a losing matchup longer than usual for a learning experience, and similar tactics not about wins primarily

I still think there will be a winning culture promoted, and the hawks will surprise a few teams

 

[Slainte]

I'm rarely the voice of pessimism on this board, but I would imagine the loss of Mitchell, O'Meara, McEvoy and to a lesser extent Shiels offsets the gain of an additional ruck.

Our midfield could definitely be more competitive and dynamic next season, but that's more on my optimism about Sam's coaching and the spark that can be provided by younger players in the right situation. It should be a hope more than an expectation that our midfield will be better.

A lot will depend on whether Worpel comes good. If he does, he can provide some of the leadership and experience that we otherwise lack. There is undoubtedly a case to be made for pessimism but on balance I think optimism is warranted. I don't expect us to have a dominant midfield but I do expect it to be competitive and probably more effective than in 2022.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Our midfield is underrated in it's progress.

Amon, Ward, Newcombe, Moore is already a solid 4. With Day, MacDonald, Worpel, Mackenzie pushing claims.

We have 3 AA quality forwards in Breust, Wingard and Lewis.

This whole it's going to take years is more in line with woe is me than actual analysis.

No, it just isn't 2015 anymore.