Training 2022 Training - pics, reports etc

[gbatman]

Can i ask, why do people think playing a non defender in defence will suddenly teach them how to defend in a midfield position better. In defense he doesn't have a dynamic 360 degree rolling contest where he can lose an opponent, he doesn't have to break forward or defense.... What he does have to do in defense are non translatable skills. Playing off the back shoulder, spoiling, the positioning is completely different. Why not teach him to defend by making him understand where he has to stand at stoppages, increasing his fitness base so he can track back better and help him read the fall of the ruck contest. Playing him in defense sounds like it interferes with someone elses development and doesn't really teach him what he's missing. If what you want is accountability you teach him through watching film and helping him understand and then smashing him on the track so he's fit enough to do whats being asked.

Basically teaching a whole new role with its own nuances to a guy who's struggling with his main job already sounds like a prime way to overload someone and burn them out/ destroy their confidence.

Because with Dow, the defensive aspect of his game is lacking due to a mindset problem, it's not about him not knowing how to defend at all. When he can't catch them he just lets them go which has probably always been the case since his junior years. That's ok at lower levels but to win AFL games players must chase and pressure the opposition with full vigour, not just a token half hearted jog because it's not about catching them it's about pressuring them. If it was about education then Dow wouldn't still have these issues, AFL coaches would not have missed this and TBH he does position well and do all that well, it's just his efforts when things go the other way aren't there.

It's not about knowledge or knowing how to defend at all with Dow it's about what he does instinctively and breaking bad habits that have formed over his footballing life.

This is a habit that Dow needs to break, it's more a subconscious thing and to break a bad habit someone needs to do the right thing over and over and over again until a new habit is formed. You put him in defence it forces him to defend and forces him to chase a man with 100% of his effort which for him would be creating a new habit and a better defensive response than what we are seeing. If he does that well enough for long enough it will transfer to how he plays his football in all areas of the ground and it will transfer to how he applies pressure as a midfielder or a forward for that matter.

AFL is a very fast and instinctive game and a lot of how well individuals play comes down to how they react. Players don't have time to think about how they are going to react they just react off instinct. Some players like Walsh, how he reacts to all situations is perfect, other players don't react how they need to. How Dow reacts to the opposition getting the ball a bit far away to make a tackle is something which needs to be changed. You see it with all players, how they react when faced with a certain situation, it can be good or it can be bad and it's not always that easy to change that. The way to make it good is to focus on that and give the player directive, put them in that situation over and over again and try and get them to react the right way repetitively until that new reaction is formed. If that doesn't work then you need to force a new reaction another way such as a role or positional change to change how they react, and it takes the coaches and team leaders to push that as well.

You put Dow in defence, he has to chase, he has to put in strong defensive efforts, he has to really up his pressure acts and if he does that well then you fix the problem that he has when he is in the midfield.

Sometimes you can't just show a bloke vision and tell them what they are doing wrong and what they need to do right because they cross that white line and they go straight back into those habits. It doesn't change their reactions. It's not always that simple, some blokes just aren't that coachable and that's why AFL players train game day situations so much but even then that's hard.

 

[Revenant1965]

Because with Dow, the defensive aspect of his game is lacking due to a mindset problem, it's not about him not knowing how to defend at all. When he can't catch them he just lets them go which has probably always been the case since his junior years. That's ok at lower levels but to win AFL games players must chase and pressure the opposition with full vigour, not just a token half hearted jog because it's not about catching them it's about pressuring them. If it was about education then Dow wouldn't still have these issues, AFL coaches would not have missed this and TBH he does position well and do all that well, it's just his efforts when things go the other way aren't there.

It's not about knowledge or knowing how to defend at all with Dow it's about what he does instinctively and breaking bad habits that have formed over his footballing life.

This is a habit that Dow needs to break, it's more a subconscious thing and to break a bad habit someone needs to do the right thing over and over and over again until a new habit is formed. You put him in defence it forces him to defend and forces him to chase a man with 100% of his effort which for him would be creating a new habit and a better defensive response than what we are seeing. If he does that well enough for long enough it will transfer to how he plays his football in all areas of the ground and it will transfer to how he applies pressure as a midfielder or a forward for that matter.

AFL is a very fast and instinctive game and a lot of how well individuals play comes down to how they react. Players don't have time to think about how they are going to react they just react off instinct. Some players like Walsh, how he reacts to all situations is perfect, other players don't react how they need to. How Dow reacts to the opposition getting the ball a bit far away to make a tackle is something which needs to be changed. You see it with all players, how they react when faced with a certain situation, it can be good or it can be bad and it's not always that easy to change that. The way to make it good is to focus on that and give the player directive, put them in that situation over and over again and try and get them to react the right way repetitively until that new reaction is formed. If that doesn't work then you need to force a new reaction another way such as a role or positional change to change how they react, and it takes the coaches and team leaders to push that as well.

You put Dow in defence, he has to chase, he has to put in strong defensive efforts, he has to really up his pressure acts and if he does that well then you fix the problem that he has when he is in the midfield.

Sometimes you can't just show a bloke vision and tell them what they are doing wrong and what they need to do right because they cross that white line and they go straight back into those habits. It doesn't change their reactions. It's not always that simple, some blokes just aren't that coachable and that's why AFL players train game day situations so much but even then that's hard.

Like the post. Just gotta say that it sounds like your advocating a bit for Pavlov's Dow..

 

[Blue Flame]

Like the post. Just gotta say that it sounds like your advocating a bit for Pavlov's Dow..
Pavlov?
It rings a bell…

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Down at the game today will write up a report this afternoon on notable players and do my best to remember some others that I've noticed today

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Because with Dow, the defensive aspect of his game is lacking due to a mindset problem, it's not about him not knowing how to defend at all. When he can't catch them he just lets them go which has probably always been the case since his junior years. That's ok at lower levels but to win AFL games players must chase and pressure the opposition with full vigour, not just a token half hearted jog because it's not about catching them it's about pressuring them. If it was about education then Dow wouldn't still have these issues, AFL coaches would not have missed this and TBH he does position well and do all that well, it's just his efforts when things go the other way aren't there.

This is a major assumption....

He could simply just be not fit enough, expending his energy in a poor game plan spreading and getting burnt going back the other way. He could be wasting energy starting at the wrong side of the stoppage, copping 4 knocks on the way to his man and be too sore and gassed to chase.

Willingness to learn is a leap and a poor one when considering elite athletes striving to be the best they can be. Throwing him in defense doesn't educate him on 'willingness' either.

It's not about knowledge or knowing how to defend at all with Dow it's about what he does instinctively and breaking bad habits that have formed over his footballing life.

So throwing someone into a new position with it's own set of nuances and skills is gonna fix a separate set of skills that are non translatable? Or just ruin his confidence, overload him and burn him out. That's not how you coach someone struggling.

This is a habit that Dow needs to break, it's more a subconscious thing and to break a bad habit someone needs to do the right thing over and over and over again until a new habit is formed. You put him in defence it forces him to defend and forces him to chase a man with 100% of his effort which for him would be creating a new habit and a better defensive response than what we are seeing. If he does that well enough for long enough it will transfer to how he plays his football in all areas of the ground and it will transfer to how he applies pressure as a midfielder or a forward for that matter.

Again, assumptions go back to my first paragraph. throwing him in defense is not suddenly going to change what you think it will. You're talking about bad habits and skill but then conflating that with effort. Which is it? Is it just effort based? Or is it skills and reading the play? Or is it confidence? Or is it the fact that he's gassed in an abhorrent game plan that sets up for midfielders to get burnt the other way due to the rubbish spread and stoppage set ups?

Defensive pressure is completely different to midfield pressure and forward pressure. It wont do anything except get in the way of someone who should be developing there.

You put Dow in defence, he has to chase, he has to put in strong defensive efforts, he has to really up his pressure acts and if he does that well then you fix the problem that he has when he is in the midfield.

he has to chase inthe midfield too. It's a different type of chase though and in defence again you're not teaching him what you think you are. Go back to my last post I already explained this.

Sometimes you can't just show a bloke vision and tell them what they are doing wrong and what they need to do right because they cross that white line and they go straight back into those habits. It doesn't change their reactions. It's not always that simple, some blokes just aren't that coachable and that's why AFL players train game day situations so much but even then that's hard.

Completely wrong. You show them vision then teach tehm on the track. If they don't get it then then you consider doing a liam jones to them. Dow's not at that stage. He needs a good season of learning midfield craft. Not a swap to an accountable defender. Learning to defend as a midfielder is about understanding midfield structures and being fit enough to execute. Hes got to be taught/ better understand midfield structure. Throwing him down back to chase a small forward around is just going to get in the way of that. Completely, and get in the way of developing an actual small defender.

 

[ferrisb]

Just gotta say that it sounds like your advocating a bit for Pavlov's Dow..

Dow reaching his potential has me salivating

 

[branedotorg]

Like the post. Just gotta say that it sounds like your advocating a bit for Pavlov's Dow..

Less Pavlov and more Schrödinger imo.

Potential is everything but when we observe we collapse the wave and he either kills it or sucks.

Bigfooty is a box, you place Dow inside it and if you never watch him play he's simultaneously a star and a dud.

 

[Blue and Blue]

Like the post. Just gotta say that it sounds like your advocating a bit for Pavlov's Dow..
Pavlov?
It rings a bell…

Hopefully he will come shining.............

 

[BlueTongue]

I still hold lots of hope for both. Dow particularly. He’s still one of our youngest on the list. Reminds me of RJ Barrett a bit at the New York Knicks. Compared to Morant and Zion. But will probably supersede them all. 2022 is dows year.

A Penguin-ite I see. I miss Tassie - Penguin is a Top little spot too. Don't know why I lived so long in Burnie when I could have moved a few clicks East to a nicer quieter spot.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Put my report in the no discussion thread but if anyone has any questions re it they can respond to it here

 

[Revenant1965]

Put my report in the no discussion thread but if anyone has any questions re it they can respond to it here

Great report. Appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Sickblue]

Put my report in the no discussion thread but if anyone has any questions re it they can respond to it here

Really enjoyed the report, but feel you were harsh on Boyd. Yes, he made a couple of bad blues, but it’s his first ever game at this level and he also missed a lot of footy last year so he was always going to take some time to adjust to the pace and I felt he absolutely did this as the game went on. What I did like about him though was his hardness, surprised me intact. He went really hard at the ball and man and whilst he overcommitted a couple of times I thought he did a good job on the smaller saints forwards and looks to have plenty to work with and develop.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Really enjoyed the report, but feel you were harsh on Boyd. Yes, he made a couple of bad blues, but it’s his first ever game at this level and he also missed a lot of footy last year so he was always going to take some time to adjust to the pace and I felt he absolutely did this as the game went on. What I did like about him though was his hardness, surprised me intact. He went really hard at the ball and man and whilst he overcommitted a couple of times I thought he did a good job on the smaller saints forwards and looks to have plenty to work with and develop.

Kade Simpson had arguably the worst start to a football career ever seen but we know how that turned out. I don't have any issues with Boyd given its his first game at AFL speed, I wouldnt be surprised if he adjusted quickly either. He looked like he read the play fine but overall he had little to no impact on the game - much like many other players when they first start off. Hopefully we can see him develop and this extraordinary kicking ability hes touted to have will be on display more as he works into it. Looked hungry at the ball but obviously has a lot to work on

 

[agro]

Kade Simpson had arguably the worst start to a football career ever seen but we know how that turned out. I don't have any issues with Boyd given its his first game at AFL speed, I wouldnt be surprised if he adjusted quickly either. He looked like he read the play fine but overall he had little to no impact on the game - much like many other players when they first start off. Hopefully we can see him develop and this extraordinary kicking ability hes touted to have will be on display more as he works into it. Looked hungry at the ball but obviously has a lot to work on

Kade made zero clangers in his first three games.

Zero disposals, but zero clangers.

 

[ferrisb]

Kade made zero clangers in his first three games.

Zero disposals, but zero clangers.

There's a famous song dedicated to Kade's first three matches...

 

[Lace_Out]

Not sure anyone is arguing the contrary but as a matter of interest how do you know his kicking is clinical? Are you talking about his run up, ball drop, kicking action etc or is it that he has a super strike rate for the 6 pointers?

We need some more accurate goal kickers. We’ve suffered our fair share of poor goal kicking in recent times.

I have watched him enough that's how.

Beautifully balanced when he kicks, flows through the ball while driving through it with real power. Weights his field kicks with precision and makes beautiful contact.



Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

 

[Pablito]

From what we saw yesterday and Voss's comments today I think we can lock in OMac as our second tall defender for round 1.

 

[gbatman]

This is a major assumption....

He could simply just be not fit enough, expending his energy in a poor game plan spreading and getting burnt going back the other way. He could be wasting energy starting at the wrong side of the stoppage, copping 4 knocks on the way to his man and be too sore and gassed to chase.

Willingness to learn is a leap and a poor one when considering elite athletes striving to be the best they can be. Throwing him in defense doesn't educate him on 'willingness' either.

So throwing someone into a new position with it's own set of nuances and skills is gonna fix a separate set of skills that are non translatable? Or just ruin his confidence, overload him and burn him out. That's not how you coach someone struggling.

Again, assumptions go back to my first paragraph. throwing him in defense is not suddenly going to change what you think it will. You're talking about bad habits and skill but then conflating that with effort. Which is it? Is it just effort based? Or is it skills and reading the play? Or is it confidence? Or is it the fact that he's gassed in an abhorrent game plan that sets up for midfielders to get burnt the other way due to the rubbish spread and stoppage set ups?

Defensive pressure is completely different to midfield pressure and forward pressure. It wont do anything except get in the way of someone who should be developing there.

he has to chase inthe midfield too. It's a different type of chase though and in defence again you're not teaching him what you think you are. Go back to my last post I already explained this.

Completely wrong. You show them vision then teach tehm on the track. If they don't get it then then you consider doing a liam jones to them. Dow's not at that stage. He needs a good season of learning midfield craft. Not a swap to an accountable defender. Learning to defend as a midfielder is about understanding midfield structures and being fit enough to execute. Hes got to be taught/ better understand midfield structure. Throwing him down back to chase a small forward around is just going to get in the way of that. Completely, and get in the way of developing an actual small defender.

No not an assumption at all, he's fit enough and quick enough to be able to apply elite pressure but he doesn't because like all gun kids he's played his entire life as a ball winner and nothing more. He tackles them when they are right there and lets them go when they aren't. How do I know this is not fitness? Because a lot of his moments come after a stoppage, when play has stopped. It's not fitness, it's really poor mindset, it's something that hasn't been broken yet.

He doesn't mean to be lazy, it's not about willingness, he puts very little energy into defensive acts because as I said, this is how he has always done this no doubt and our player development has not been good enough to correct this. The long list of traits players have that have not been ironed out probably come back to this. This is one reason why a lot of our high draft picks don't come on unless they come to us already made players with little to nothing to correct.

I wouldn't worry about ruining his confidence, if nothing changes with Dow he will be delisted at years end. It's about getting his game right and making a player out of him before we get rid of him. Clearly what we have been doing hasn't worked.

Yes, you put him into another position where the fundamentals of that position force him to focus on what he's doing poorly and force him to do those things right until it changes how he reacts and how he defends. Then when that has become second nature you put him into the midfield where he would perform a lot better than he has. Or he becomes a good defender and gains a second or new position and that keeps him in the AFL.

Again, this is nothing about skills at all, this is about mind set. Two completely different things. I don't see how it ruins his confidence, it's still playing football. Playing football does not run a players confidence, a lack of ability to play football ruins a players confidence.

You have to chase in the midfield too to be good. But he doesn't and many don't, he's not being made to chase because he's just doesn't do it instinctively. In defence you are forced to chase and the clear defined role of playing as a defender makes you focus on that compared to midfield where the focus is on ball winning. There is a difference to being forces to chase and supposed to chase. That is clearly not working so the development of this area needs to be upped. Unless Voss and the new crew have some methods that can drill this into him then nothing will change and he will be delisted.

Completely wrong. You show them vision then teach tehm on the track. If they don't get it then then you consider doing a liam jones to them. Dow's not at that stage. He needs a good season of learning midfield craft. Not a swap to an accountable defender. Learning to defend as a midfielder is about understanding midfield structures and being fit enough to execute. Hes got to be taught/ better understand midfield structure. Throwing him down back to chase a small forward around is just going to get in the way of that. Completely, and get in the way of developing an actual small defender.

You've never coach football have you? That is not how these things work. You can't just show people what they are doing wrong, tell them what they should be doing and expect things to be fixed, that's miles and miles away from how this works. Sometimes you can but generally it takes a lot of time and patience. A lot of midfielders have been developed in defence. A lot of attacking midfielders have been developed in defensive roles. This is the reason why that is done. None of our coaches have tried Dow in other roles or positions apart from the forward flank to try and break his habits. Dow gets a month to make it as a midfielder, if nothing changes then you have to change how you're using him and developing him. That's where I see it, you wouldn't re-sign him if his game doesn't move forward. Maybe re-rookie or trade but he's not near it yet. You would hope that changes with age but we will see. It might but we need to be prepared for it not to as well.

He has no issue with midfield structure or positioning or any of that, this is not what this is about. This is less about teaching him how to play the game and more about focusing on how he plays the game which for a lot of our young players who are underperforming, this is the issue. It's not that the don't know how to play the game, it's about how they play the game and how they go about it. It's poor player development. This is about how he reacts to situations and nothing to do with how he positions and where he runs to, that's not his issue.

We aren't likely to be developing a small defender. He would likely start playing defence in the VFL for a few games until he proves he's competent.

 

[CJMB]

No not an assumption at all, he's fit enough and quick enough to be able to apply elite pressure but he doesn't because like all gun kids he's played his entire life as a ball winner and nothing more. He tackles them when they are right there and lets them go when they aren't. How do I know this is not fitness? Because a lot of his moments come after a stoppage, when play has stopped. It's not fitness, it's really poor mindset, it's something that hasn't been broken yet.

He doesn't mean to be lazy, it's not about willingness, he puts very little energy into defensive acts because as I said, this is how he has always done this no doubt and our player development has not been good enough to correct this. The long list of traits players have that have not been ironed out probably come back to this. This is one reason why a lot of our high draft picks don't come on unless they come to us already made players with little to nothing to correct.

I wouldn't worry about ruining his confidence, if nothing changes with Dow he will be delisted at years end. It's about getting his game right and making a player out of him before we get rid of him. Clearly what we have been doing hasn't worked.

Yes, you put him into another position where the fundamentals of that position force him to focus on what he's doing poorly and force him to do those things right until it changes how he reacts and how he defends. Then when that has become second nature you put him into the midfield where he would perform a lot better than he has. Or he becomes a good defender and gains a second or new position and that keeps him in the AFL.

Again, this is nothing about skills at all, this is about mind set. Two completely different things. I don't see how it ruins his confidence, it's still playing football. Playing football does not run a players confidence, a lack of ability to play football ruins a players confidence.

You have to chase in the midfield too to be good. But he doesn't and many don't, he's not being made to chase because he's just doesn't do it instinctively. In defence you are forced to chase and the clear defined role of playing as a defender makes you focus on that compared to midfield where the focus is on ball winning. There is a difference to being forces to chase and supposed to chase. That is clearly not working so the development of this area needs to be upped. Unless Voss and the new crew have some methods that can drill this into him then nothing will change and he will be delisted.


You've never coach football have you? That is not how these things work. You can't just show people what they are doing wrong, tell them what they should be doing and expect things to be fixed, that's miles and miles away from how this works. Sometimes you can but generally it takes a lot of time and patience. A lot of midfielders have been developed in defence. A lot of attacking midfielders have been developed in defensive roles. This is the reason why that is done. None of our coaches have tried Dow in other roles or positions apart from the forward flank to try and break his habits. Dow gets a month to make it as a midfielder, if nothing changes then you have to change how you're using him and developing him. That's where I see it, you wouldn't re-sign him if his game doesn't move forward. Maybe re-rookie or trade but he's not near it yet. You would hope that changes with age but we will see. It might but we need to be prepared for it not to as well.

He has no issue with midfield structure or positioning or any of that, this is not what this is about. This is less about teaching him how to play the game and more about focusing on how he plays the game which for a lot of our young players who are underperforming, this is the issue. It's not that the don't know how to play the game, it's about how they play the game and how they go about it. It's poor player development. This is about how he reacts to situations and nothing to do with how he positions and where he runs to, that's not his issue.

We aren't likely to be developing a small defender. He would likely start playing defence in the VFL for a few games until he proves he's competent.

Not sure why you wouldn’t give him a run in the 2s as a tagger/defensive mid to work on that side of the game rather than throw him down back as a small defender to try and learn a completely new position with different skill sets before delisting him at the end of the year because he isn’t a natural small defender and didn’t excel at it after 23 weeks…

 

[Arr0w]

If Dow starts gaining possessions away from a stoppage, we have a best 22 player

 

[Sharks On A Plane]

If Dow start gaining possessions away from a stoppage, we have a best 22 player

This is actually such an accurate assessment of Dow, I’ve never thought of it like that but it’s so true.

Never gets easy ball.

 

[Arr0w]

This is actually such an accurate assessment of Dow, I’ve never thought of it like that but it’s so true.

Never gets easy ball.

Actually has a higher contested rate per possession, compared to Kennedy, Hewett and E Curnow

Mentioned recently that I believe he still struggles to read the next phase of play, so think he needs to present more for handball receives and or give and go with that bust speed he possesses

 

[thebluenewdeal]

Actually has a higher contested rate per possession, compared to Kennedy, Hewett and E Curnow

Mentioned recently that I believe he still struggles to read the next phase of play, so think he needs to present more for handball receives and or give and go with that bust speed he possesses

The most explosive player on our list. I don’t even think it’s close.

 

[ferrisb]

Dow is the most explosive player on our list.

That explains why he always blows up after the first quarter

 

[FRUMPY]

Kade made zero clangers in his first three games.

Zero disposals, but zero clangers.

One free against in his first game, isn't that counted as a clanger?

Sent from my CPH2005 using Tapatalk