Analysis 2023 All Australian Team Awards Night

[Guardian Hawk]

If Sicily does get in with 3-4 less games than Tom Stewart and Tom doesn’t- do we have the right to seek medical help and cry on forums for a whole year?

The standard has been set.

Not really.

The reason for the "crying" last year is that Stewart was no better than his peers when on the park either. In fact, Sicily trumped Stewart on average performance across most key indicators. So missing 5 (and only 1 quarter of another) made a significant difference. IN other words, had Stewart played every game last season, Sicily still had the better year (quite comfortably - I can bring up all the data again if you wish so for Stewart to make it having missed all those games did not make sense).

This season -as my above stats show - Sicily is head and shoulders above his peers when on the park. His performances are enough better than his competitiors to overcome the games difference. The precedent for that HAS been set - where players have been picked after missing a handful of games - but only when they have clearly been the best when on the park (which Sicily has this year and Stewart hadn't last year).

Also, Stewart effectively played 6 less games than Sicily last year and Sicily has effectively played 1 less game than Stewart this year (if yoiuy don't count the game where Stewart lasted a few minutes, only playing 10% of the game). 6 x as many games missed is not really the same thing.

With all of that said, I don't think they are competing for the same position. Sicily plays CHB and Stewart is a BP.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Langford couldn't have done much more, even if medium forwards are rarely selected. He's 5th on the total goal/assist tally. And has been one of Essendon's best performers.

He’s 192cm so I see him more as KPF role. And has only 5-goals and GA’s more than Naughton, who is sharing the forward line with JUH. Naughton isn’t even given a remote chance of the squad I’d assume, let alone the team.

Stats : Langford / Naughton:

Disposals: 13.7 / 11.6
Marks: 5.8 / 4.5
Goals: 2.2 / 2.0
Tackles: 1.7 / 2.5
I50’s: 1.6 / 1.9
GA: 0.9 / 0.9
CP : 5.0 / 6.7
SI’s: 6.7 / 6.3

So I think it’s more the surprise performance of Langford where he is far exceeding expectations but the likes of Naughton isn’t. But they’re very similar on pure output and Naughton isn’t even in the frame.

Having said that, if Langford kicks 10+ in last 3 games to bring his tally to 55+ he might get the nod, and I wouldn’t be against his selection.


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[eth-dog]

That stat is marking contests

No, it's literally for all one on one contests.

 

[eth-dog]

He’s 192cm so I see him more as KPF role. And has only 5-goals and GA’s more than Naughton, who is sharing the forward line with JUH. Naughton isn’t even given a remote chance of the squad I’d assume, let alone the team.

Stats : Langford / Naughton:

Disposals: 13.7 / 11.6
Marks: 5.8 / 4.5
Goals: 2.2 / 2.0
Tackles: 1.7 / 2.5
I50’s: 1.6 / 1.9
GA: 0.9 / 0.9
CP : 5.0 / 6.7
SI’s: 6.7 / 6.3

So I think it’s more the surprise performance of Langford where he is far exceeding expectations but the likes of Naughton isn’t. But they’re very similar on pure output and Naughton isn’t even in the frame.

Having said that, if Langford kicks 10+ in last 3 games to bring his tally to 55+ he might get the nod, and I wouldn’t be against his selection.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Langford is playing as a medium.

 

[HarryBeef]

No, it's literally for all one on one contests.

Are you sure? So he's only had 22 one on one contests for the entire season?

Surely if it's all one on ones then mids would have tonnes.

 

[rye]

Adelaide: Dawson, Laird, Walker
Brisbane: Andrews, Cameron, Daniher, Dunkley, Neale
Carlton: Curnow, Newman, Weitering
Collingwood: Daicos, Daicos, Moore
Essendon: Langford, Merrett
Fremantle: Serong
Geelong: Cameron, Hawkins, Miers, Stewart
Gold Coast: Ballard, Rowell
GWS: Coniglio, Greene, Taylor
Hawthorn: Breust, Sicily
Melbourne: Gawn, Petracca
North Melbourne:
Port Adelaide: Aliir, Butters, Finalyson, Houston, Rozee
Richmond: Bolton, Taranto
St Kilda: Marshall, Sinclair, Wilkie
Sydney: Gulden
West Coast:
Western Bulldogs: Bontempelli, English, Liberatore

Squad with 23 bolded being the team (including substitute)

 

[eth-dog]

Are you sure? So he's only had 22 one on one contests for the entire season?

Surely if it's all one on ones then mids would have tonnes.

Yes.

 

[Lingsface]

Not really.

The reason for the "crying" last year is that Stewart was no better than his peers when on the park either. In fact, Sicily trumped Stewart on average performance across most key indicators. So missing 5 (and only 1 quarter of another) made a significant difference. IN other words, had Stewart played every game last season, Sicily still had the better year (quite comfortably - I can bring up all the data again if you wish so for Stewart to make it having missed all those games did not make sense).

This season -as my above stats show - Sicily is head and shoulders above his peers when on the park. His performances are enough better than his competitiors to overcome the games difference. The precedent for that HAS been set - where players have been picked after missing a handful of games - but only when they have clearly been the best when on the park (which Sicily has this year and Stewart hadn't last year).

Also, Stewart effectively played 6 less games than Sicily last year and Sicily has effectively played 1 less game than Stewart this year (if yoiuy don't count the game where Stewart lasted a few minutes, only playing 10% of the game). 6 x as many games missed is not really the same thing.

With all of that said, I don't think they are competing for the same position. Sicily plays CHB and Stewart is a BP.

Ok clearly didn’t affect you. Tom Stewart actually defends and spoils as well as rebounds though so maybe he has slightly less possesions but I’m taking Stewart every day of the week.

Last year was an amazing year by Stewart he was the general of a premiership side and organised our whole defence and set up our style of play.

 

[HarryBeef]

Yes.

What constitutes a one on one contest then?

 

[STPer18]

Not really.

The reason for the "crying" last year is that Stewart was no better than his peers when on the park either. In fact, Sicily trumped Stewart on average performance across most key indicators. So missing 5 (and only 1 quarter of another) made a significant difference. IN other words, had Stewart played every game last season, Sicily still had the better year (quite comfortably - I can bring up all the data again if you wish so for Stewart to make it having missed all those games did not make sense).

This season -as my above stats show - Sicily is head and shoulders above his peers when on the park. His performances are enough better than his competitiors to overcome the games difference. The precedent for that HAS been set - where players have been picked after missing a handful of games - but only when they have clearly been the best when on the park (which Sicily has this year and Stewart hadn't last year).

Also, Stewart effectively played 6 less games than Sicily last year and Sicily has effectively played 1 less game than Stewart this year (if yoiuy don't count the game where Stewart lasted a few minutes, only playing 10% of the game). 6 x as many games missed is not really the same thing.

With all of that said, I don't think they are competing for the same position. Sicily plays CHB and Stewart is a BP.

Sicily played in a backline that conceded 1991 points, Stewart 1488. The ball practically lived in the Hawthorn backline. You can give me metres gained, kicks, handballs, intercepts etc until the cows come home, the simple fact is Hawthorn were really bad and he's got twice the amount of opportunity to get his hands on the pill than players in competent teams playing for flags like Geelong were. Tom Stewart wasn't just the best defender, he was the best player in the best team who won 16 games straight en route to a premiership. Hawthorn supporters of 2022 weren't the first and won't be the last time a poor team squeals that they've got amazing defenders putting up amazing numbers while denying reality.

TLDR Tom Stewart in 2022 was better than his peers, he was better than Maynard, better than Saad, better than Sinclair, better than Sicily.

 

[rye]

Tom Stewart was the best defender of the premiership team who won 16 games in a row. Hawthorn fans playing the victim and whining about Sicily getting snubbed in 2022 doesn't detract from that. The AA team is supposed to represent the best of the best, and the 2022 backline without Stewart may as well be a 2nds team. If Sicily was to make the AA team in 2022 it would've been ahead of Maynard. It doesn't matter what justification anyone has, you don't have the best 22 of '22 with Sicily, Maynard, Sinclair and Saad ahead of Tom Stewart. Yes he flattened the meatball and everyone had a cry, but he was that good you can't mount a compelling argument that he wasn't in the best six defenders of 2022.

He's every chance to make it this year as well, no bias, no favouritism, just being one of the best defenders in the competition - again.

im not a hawthorn fan and am far from the only neutral who thought sicily deserved a jacket more than stewart

sicily is far closer to an analogue for stewart than he is to maynard so not sure why you even bring maynard into the conversation, let alone saad or sinclair

 

[STPer18]

im not a hawthorn fan and am far from the only neutral who thought sicily deserved a jacket more than stewart

sicily is far closer to an analogue for stewart than he is to maynard so not sure why you even bring maynard into the conversation, let alone saad or sinclair

Feelings and thoughts have nothing to do with it. Stewart was the best player of the best team who dominated for 3/4s of the year. He was always getting in the AA team, anyone who watched Geelong with a true 'neutral' eye could see how dominant he was. There weren't six defenders ahead of Stewart in 2022 no matter how hard you squint.

 

[HarryBeef]

What constitutes a one on one contest then?

Found it, 'being isolated in a one on one contest as a defender'. Would hardly be judging AA based on something that happens once a game to both Quaynor and Newman going by their stats.

Quaynor 22 in 20 games for 3 losses
Newman 18 in 18 games for 6 losses.

Bizarre to judge it on that.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

He deserves to be in no doubt in my mind, but for fairness he has had a lot more opportunity to gather stats like that than most defenders.

In what sense?

Do you mean because we concede more inside 50's than most other teams?

If so, that is a fair point but doesn't really begin to explain the stats I presented. Firstly, I highlighted he is #1 for score involvements which should be MUCH harder in a bottom 3 team with arguably the worst forward line in the comp. Ditto for goal assists - which he is also #1 for (in fact, he had more goal assist on the weekend against the best side in the comp than any other key defender has had for the whole season!).

Also, under siege backlines (with other key defenders like Frost and Blanck) usually mean you need to be more accountable rather than some of the free wheeling that players can do in good teams. In Sicily's case, he has shut down opposition talls at the same time as getting those ridiculous stats.

Being #1 for metres gained (and the scoring stats already mentioned) also highlights that he is going forward with the ball. This a is a result of Hawthorn playing a very direct, take on the game through the corridor approach. Other teams play possession games and chip the ball around in their backline a lot. I think this would more than make up for any inside 50 differential when looking at how often players get the ball.

Finally, the numbers I mentioned are not just number 1 for this season. In broader context, no key defender has ever averaged even close to Sicily's 27 disposals a game this year. It's an outlier in a historical sense, rather than just a marginal bit better than the rest of the comp this season.

 

[rye]

Feelings and thoughts have nothing to do with it. Stewart was the best player of the best team who dominated for 3/4s of the year. He was always getting in the AA team, anyone who watched Geelong with a true 'neutral' eye could see how dominant he was. There weren't six defenders ahead of Stewart in 2022 no matter how hard you squint.

where did the best player for the best team finish in their best and fairest last year?

before you trot out the games missed excuse, why should that not also be a factor against his all australian selection ahead of sicily?

you are letting the hoops blind your judgement i am afraid

 

[eth-dog]

What constitutes a one on one contest then?

All defensive one on ones are situations where a team is passing it to a teammate in a one on one situation and the opposition stopping it.

 

[HarryBeef]

All defensive one on ones are situations where a team is passing it to a teammate in a one on one situation and the opposition stopping it.

Thanks, yeah found it, see above.

 

[STPer18]

where did the best player for the best team finish in their best and fairest last year?

before you trot out the games missed excuse, why should that not also be a factor against his all australian selection ahead of sicily?

you are letting the hoops blind your judgement i am afraid

There's nothing for me to be biased about, I was adamant Tom Stewart was a monty for the AA team in 2022 despite the hilarious hysteria, and lo and behold Tom Stewart made the AA team in 2022. He was the best player in the best team playing in the best defence of the team who finished two games clear and % clear on top of the ladder. BigFooty.com hysteria means very little in the grand scheme of things, he would've been one of the first players penned into the team by the AA selectors if I had to assume.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Sicily played in a backline that conceded 1991 points, Stewart 1488. The ball practically lived in the Hawthorn backline. You can give me metres gained, kicks, handballs, intercepts etc until the cows come home, the simple fact is Hawthorn were really bad and he's got twice the amount of opportunity to get his hands on the pill than players in competent teams playing for flags like Geelong were. Tom Stewart wasn't just the best defender, he was the best player in the best team who won 16 games straight en route to a premiership. Hawthorn supporters of 2022 weren't the first and won't be the last time a poor team squeals that they've got amazing defenders putting up amazing numbers while denying reality.

TLDR Tom Stewart in 2022 was better than his peers, he was better than Maynard, better than Saad, better than Sinclair, better than Sicily.

You keep talking about how good the team was (and I have no doubt this is why the selectors made the decision they did). But All Australian is not (or at least shouldn't be) judged on who has the best teammates. It should be purely judged on an individual in isolation and all of the individual indicators demonstrate Sicily's year to have been better than Stewart's. As the other poster highlighted, nearly every NEUTRAL pundit agreed and only Geelong supporters are arguing otherwise with the idea that it is supporters of every other team's bias (do you see the irony in this?). Also, for anyone that watches modern football, a worse team doesn't mean the backline sees "twice as much" of the ball, etc (that's lazy analysis at best). Look at inside 50's conceded - it's marginal and the better backlines as a unit mean they have more of the ball as the opposition forwards don't. Not only that, but better backlines also just mean the defenders (particularly Stewart) move further up the field - it's not 1980 where the full back just sits in the goalsquare all game and if their team is on top, they don't see much of the ball. The entire defensive line will now move up to be kick behind the play at the D50 or the centre circle or whatever, meaning there is just asmuch opportunity to get the ball (often moreso as the oppo often kick hurriedly out of their own defense and your own team will share the ball outside the arc given the congestion upfield).

P.S. Also not sure why so many inferences that Stewart was the reason Geelong were so dominant. Firstly, no single player has that level of influence in our game. Secondly, Stewart missed effectively 30% of the season and Geelong were UNDEFEATED when Stewart was NOT playing. Thirdly, he finished 9th in the Geelong B&F. He wasn't even in the top 2 defenders (in the Carji)! Hell, Geelong won the flag in a canter and I don't think Stewart got any Gary Ayers or Norm Smith votes. In short, Geelong win even if Stewart isn't there at all so team performance (which should never be a factor for AA anyway) should hardly trump all objective individual comparison.

 

[Mr Meow]

You keep talking about how good the team was (and I have no doubt this is why the selectors made the decision they did). But All Australian is not (or at least shouldn't be) judged on who has the best teammates. It should be purely judged on an individual in isolation and all of the individual indicators demonstrate Sicily's year to have been better than Stewart's. As the other poster highlighted, nearly every NEUTRAL pundit agreed and only Geelong supporters are arguing otherwise with the idea that it is supporters of every other team's bias (do you see the irony in this?). Also, for anyone that watches modern football, a worse team doesn't mean the backline sees "twice as much" of the ball, etc (that's lazy analysis at best). Look at inside 50's conceded - it's marginal and the better backlines as a unit mean they have more of the ball as the opposition forwards don't. Not only that, but better backlines also just mean the defenders (particularly Stewart) move further up the field - it's not 1980 where the full back just sits in the goalsquare all game and if their team is on top, they don't see much of the ball. The entire defensive line will now move up to be kick behind the play at the D50 or the centre circle or whatever, meaning there is just asmuch opportunity to get the ball (often moreso as the oppo often kick hurriedly out of their own defense and your own team will share the ball outside the arc given the congestion upfield)

Most Geelong supporters have the correct opinion: that both Sicily and Stewart belonged in the team last year and it's the same story for this one. We're talking about the best 6 defenders, not THE best defender.

It is tiresome that so frequently in the 2023 thread that this tired and redundant 2022 comparison is being debated. If Sicily is not picked this season then a new line of complaint can be made.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Most Geelong supporters have the correct opinion: that both Sicily and Stewart belonged in the team last year and it's the same story for this one. We're talking about the best 6 defenders, not THE best defender.

It is tiresome that so frequently in the 2023 thread that this tired and redundant 2022 comparison is being debated. If Sicily is not picked this season then a new line of complaint can be made.

Fair enough - I'm on board with that and will let sleeping dogs lie (until I have another meltdown at AA time this year )

FWIW, I didn't raise the comparison. I raised Sicily in isolation this season and a Geelong supporter brought up the comparison to 2022 Stewart in response.

 

[HairyO]

He deserves to be in no doubt in my mind, but for fairness he has had a lot more opportunity to gather stats like that than most defenders.

Like how forwards of good teams have more opportunities to kick goals than poorer teams?

Imagine being a small forward for a terrible team. Then look at how many goals Luke Breust has kicked. Shouldnt be a tough argument to include him on the team given how many goals he kicks vs the opportunities presented.

And so Im not being biased, look at Oscar Allen. Guy is having an incredible year.

 

[Lingsface]

Like how forwards of good teams have more opportunities to kick goals than poorer teams?

Imagine being a small forward for a terrible team. Then look at how many goals Luke Breust has kicked. Shouldnt be a tough argument to include him on the team given how many goals he kicks vs the opportunities presented.

Breust needs to be considered even if he gets the nod because of runs on the board over another player id be happy with that, Id have him only behind Greene as small forward this year worthy of a bench spot.

 

[Mr Meow]

Fair enough - I'm on board with that and will let sleeping dogs lie (until I have another meltdown at AA time this year )

FWIW, I didn't raise the comparison. I raised Sicily in isolation this season and a Geelong supporter brought up the comparison to 2022 Stewart in response.

Yeah, I get it. He's been one of the better defenders since he moved there in 2018 and so it's baffling that he still hasn't made an AA team. He should probably be going for number 3 this season.

 

[fpm84]

Stewart and Sicily should have both made the 2022 team.
Stewart and Sicily should both make the 2023 team.