Analysis 2023 All Australian Team Awards Night

[Roby]

Obviously, I don't pay too much attention to stats, or I wouldn't have made the comment, as I would have known about the clearance and contested stats.

Doesn't that however strengthen my opinion that Libba has had a better season than some of those above him in Coaches award?

But you said don't let stats sway your thinking... So how do stats strengthen an argument when you just said, to not let stats sway you're thinking?

 

[Trav 20]

It’s not about his pure ruck work, it’s about his impact on games. Add in a solid block of 5 games of top tier ruckwork against lesser rucks could get him a 2nd ruck/bench spot like Nic Nat years earlier. I recon he’ll at least be in the squad.

I didn't say it was all about ''pure ruckwork'', but I can't see in any universe where the no.1 ruck isn't in the top 30 for average hitouts.

It wouldn't preclude him as a ruck/forward bench option if he had enough goals. I doubt an average of one goal per game gives the selectors their jollies.

Too many poor games to be thought about this year.

 

[Purple Suit]

I didn't say it was all about ''pure ruckwork'', but I can't see in any universe where the no.1 ruck isn't in the top 30 for average hitouts.

It wouldn't preclude him as a ruck/forward bench option if he had enough goals. I doubt an average of one goal per game gets gives the selectors their jollies.

Too many poor games to be thought about this year.

You just referenced a pure ruck stat which I responded to. I never said he will be the first ruck, his only chance is if the selectors decide to act like they are picking an actual team so the 2nd ruck needs other capabilities. They have done it in the past.

He has only really played 3-4 down games. Still more output than missing 3-4 games.

 

[Ads734]

Question to the masses does Wilkie get in?

I think him being mid sized works against him because if he was 196 or so he’d almost be a lock.

I do think that the best defender in the second best defensive team should be in the 22. Just my thoughts

 

[s_wd6]

Question to the masses does Wilkie get in?

I think him being mid sized works against him because if he was 196 or so he’d almost be a lock.

I do think that the best defender in the second best defensive team should be in the 22. Just my thoughts

The best defender in the second best defensive team didn't make the 22 last year.

But Wilkie should make it.

 

[Trav 20]

You just referenced a pure ruck stat which I responded to. I never said he will be the first ruck, his only chance is if the selectors decide to act like they are picking an actual team so the 2nd ruck needs other capabilities. They have done it in the past.

He has only really played 3-4 down games. Still more output than missing 3-4 games.

The problem for Jackson is that he's nowhere near being the no.1 ruck, but plays his best footy when he's the no.1 ruck, albeit undersized.

 

[The 747]

Question to the masses does Wilkie get in?

I think him being mid sized works against him because if he was 196 or so he’d almost be a lock.

I do think that the best defender in the second best defensive team should be in the 22. Just my thoughts

He'd be in for mine. Been awesome this year.

 

[jakson68]

Ok, this isn't as easy as I thought it would be.

B - Sicily - Moore - Stewart
HB - N. Daicos - Taylor - Sinclair
C - J.Daicos - Libba - Gulden
HF - Rozee - Curnow - Trac
F - Greene - Walker - Langford
Fol - English - Bont - Butters
Int - Housten - Merrett - Dawson - Serong

Rest of Squad

B - Weitering - Andrews - Wilkie - Quaynor
M - Neale - Tom Green

12

Tom Green

Age

23

Ht

192cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.5

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

7.3

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.3

4star

CL

2.8

4star

D

11.5

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

7.3

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.3

3star

CL

2.8

4star

D

11.5

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

7.3

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.3

4star

CL

2.8

5star

- Taranto - Anderson - Viney - Cripps - Dunkley
F - C.Cameron - J.Cameron - Hawkins - Bolton
R - Marshall - Gawn - Jackson

Good seasons and may pull up short

Newk - Newman - Elliott - Daniher - Breust - Larkey - Aliir


Bolded are locks in my opinion, the rest are debatable.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Can you please explain to me, in depth, how a player judged by the coaches to have a bigger impact on games than literally anyone else that plays in the two positions he’s played in during the year, it’s not worthy of making the AA team?

It’s going to break your little purple **** heart when Jackson misses out, isn’t it?

 

[theasian]

The best defender in the second best defensive team didn't make the 22 last year.

But Wilkie should make it.

It might be either Wilkie or Sicily.

May make it as the 7th defender if Daicos is chosen as a Mid.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

The problem for Jackson is that he's nowhere near being the no.1 ruck, but plays his best footy when he's the no.1 ruck, albeit undersized.

I'm loving s_wd6's work in here, particularly because he told me on the Freo board Jackson isnt getting in the team and I told to the Unicorn could not be denied but I dont think any Freo supporter is going to sit here and say he should be the on field ruck. If he continues his form though he should absolutely be on the bench the same way Blicavs was picked

 

[s_wd6]

I'm loving s_wd6's work in here, particularly because he told me on the Freo board Jackson isnt getting in the team and I told to the Unicorn could not be denied but I dont think any Freo supporter is going to sit here and say he should be the on field ruck. If he continues his form though he should absolutely be on the bench the same way Blicavs was picked

Listen just because he WON'T make the team, doesn't mean he shouldn't. But considering he plays for a freo side that is bottom of the table, they're not going to give him a spot, because that's how they work. Lachie Neale broke the record for most disposals in an AFL season while being top 3 for clearances and contested posessions and couldn't even make the team.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

On Jackson:

His best this season has been elite. His quality games are as good as those he is competing with.

The thing is that his floor is too low - and he's had too many quiet games. Compare him to English who has been between 'pretty good' to 'brilliant' every game this year. His poorest games he is still around the top 10 or so players.

Jackson has had the 'brilliant' games but has also had a number where he has been in the bottom 10 on field.

Against the Bulldogs for example, Jackson had 8 possessions, 3 hit outs and 0 goals 0 assists. Whilst it doesn't mean much, his champion data score was 30 (which was easily the worst 'non sub' for the Dockers). For reference, English's worst is 88.

Against the Saints, he had 12 touches (3 clangers), 7 hit outs and 0 goals.
The earlier game against the Bulldogs, he had 9 possessions, 9 hit outs and 1 goal.
In the first game against the Lions, he had 12 touches, 7 hit outs and 1 goal.
Against the Crows, he had 14 possessions, 8 hit outs and a goal.
First time against the Cats, he had 15 possessions, 8 hit outs and 0 goals
Even the 2nd game against the Cats (where he was decent) - he had 16 possessions, 19 hit outs and 0 goals as first ruck. Then you look closer and you see that he lost the hitouts 44-19 against Rhys Stanley

1

Rhys Stanley

Age

33

Ht

200cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.6

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

6.4

4star

CL

3.4

5star

HO

27.6

5star

D

12.0

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

4.5

3star

CL

5.0

5star

HO

21.5

5star

D

11.8

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

6.4

4star

CL

3.0

5star

HO

33.0

5star

!
Against the Blues, he had 10 possessions, 11 hit outs and 1 goal.

That's at least 7-8 poor to average games. Not sure you can be All Australian when 40% of your season has been average.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Listen just because he WON'T make the team, doesn't mean he shouldn't. But considering he plays for a freo side that is bottom of the table, they're not going to give him a spot, because that's how they work. Lachie Neale broke the record for most disposals in an AFL season while being top 3 for clearances and contested posessions and couldn't even make the team.

I’m not as pessimistic as other Freo supporters on this stuff. I think we get ok recognition in AA and things like rising star (unless they are busy pitying WC that is).

I guarantee you when they finalise they check through things like “ranking points” and coaches votes and they are going to see Jackson at the top and they are going to squeeze him on the bench if he has a big last two weeks.

He’s already in the squad with Serong and maybe Ryan IMO

 

[s_wd6]

I’m not as pessimistic as other Freo supporters on this stuff. I think we get ok recognition in AA and things like rising star (unless they are busy pitying WC that is).

I guarantee you when they finalise they check through things like “ranking points” and coaches votes and they are going to see Jackson at the top and they are going to squeeze him on the bench if he has a big last two weeks.

He’s already in the squad with Serong and maybe Ryan IMO

Don't teams have to nominate their players? I doubt people at freo are even considering Jacko

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

On Jackson:

His best this season has been elite. His quality games are as good as those he is competing with.

The thing is that his floor is too low - and he's had too many quiet games. Compare him to English who has been between 'pretty good' to 'brilliant' every game this year. His poorest games he is still around the top 10 or so players.

Jackson has had the 'brilliant' games but has also had a number where he has been in the bottom 10 on field.

Against the Bulldogs for example, Jackson had 8 possessions, 3 hit outs and 0 goals 0 assists. Whilst it doesn't mean much, his champion data score was 30 (which was easily the worst 'non sub' for the Dockers). For reference, English's worst is 88.

Against the Saints, he had 12 touches (3 clangers), 7 hit outs and 0 goals.
The earlier game against the Bulldogs, he had 9 possessions, 9 hit outs and 1 goal.
In the first game against the Lions, he had 12 touches, 7 hit outs and 1 goal.
Against the Crows, he had 14 possessions, 8 hit outs and a goal.
First time against the Cats, he had 15 possessions, 8 hit outs and 0 goals
Even the 2nd game against the Cats (where he was decent) - he had 16 possessions, 19 hit outs and 0 goals as first ruck. Then you look closer and you see that he lost the hitouts 44-19 against Rhys Stanley!
Against the Blues, he had 10 possessions, 11 hit outs and 1 goal.

That's at least 7-8 poor to average games. Not sure you can be All Australian when 40% of your season has been average.

There was a couple of games after the bye he was absolutely playing injured, we put Treacy in the ruck instead of him. I suppose they still count against him but would you blink if he just missed the games instead? Probably not.

Including the 2nd Geelong game at all when he got 7 coaches votes (4-3 voting) is a stretch. The stats dont reflect the impact he had, he was very good.

Again, no one is going to argue he should be the starting ruck but it's perfectly reasonable if he gets a bench spot as a "utility"

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Don't teams have to nominate their players? I doubt people at freo are even considering Jacko

What? Of course they would and I believe that's a different award anyway

 

[s_wd6]

On Jackson:

His best this season has been elite. His quality games are as good as those he is competing with.

The thing is that his floor is too low - and he's had too many quiet games. Compare him to English who has been between 'pretty good' to 'brilliant' every game this year. His poorest games he is still around the top 10 or so players.

Jackson has had the 'brilliant' games but has also had a number where he has been in the bottom 10 on field.

Against the Bulldogs for example, Jackson had 8 possessions, 3 hit outs and 0 goals 0 assists. Whilst it doesn't mean much, his champion data score was 30 (which was easily the worst 'non sub' for the Dockers). For reference, English's worst is 88.

Against the Saints, he had 12 touches (3 clangers), 7 hit outs and 0 goals.
The earlier game against the Bulldogs, he had 9 possessions, 9 hit outs and 1 goal.
In the first game against the Lions, he had 12 touches, 7 hit outs and 1 goal.
Against the Crows, he had 14 possessions, 8 hit outs and a goal.
First time against the Cats, he had 15 possessions, 8 hit outs and 0 goals
Even the 2nd game against the Cats (where he was decent) - he had 16 possessions, 19 hit outs and 0 goals as first ruck. Then you look closer and you see that he lost the hitouts 44-19 against Rhys Stanley!
Against the Blues, he had 10 possessions, 11 hit outs and 1 goal.

That's at least 7-8 poor to average games. Not sure you can be All Australian when 40% of your season has been average.

His start to the year wasn't good. His first seven rounds were him trying to fit into a new team. Plus he was stuck in a forward line in a team that could not get the ball to their forward 50, or when they did they did so poorly. There's been plenty of times when players start the season slowly and still make AA because of how good their second half of the year was. Recency bias is a thing.

Against the Bulldogs he was playing injured and could barely jump, and against the Blues we couldn't get it inside our f50.

And the game against the Cats he had 7 coaches votes, meaning despite his very average statline, he was still in the top 3 players for both coaches. Once again, impact on games goes well beyond statlines.

No one is advocating for him to be the main ruck, or start on the field. But he's impacting games as well as any other KPP, he should absolutely be considered for a spot on the bench. Since round eight he's polled in 8/14 games. That's got to be taken into consideration.

 

[s_wd6]

What? Of course they would and I believe that's a different award anyway

Nah teams definitely nominate their players for AA. I can't remember which year it was but a player recently missed out on AA squad or team and all the fans were upset and turns out they weren't even nominated by their team.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Nah teams definitely nominate their players for AA. I can't remember which year it was but a player recently missed out on AA squad or team and all the fans were upset and turns out they weren't even nominated by their team.

Ok well I’m pretty sure we would be putting Jackson top of the bill yo smooth over trade value optics at least…

 

[Purple Suit]

Nah teams definitely nominate their players for AA. I can't remember which year it was but a player recently missed out on AA squad or team and all the fans were upset and turns out they weren't even nominated by their team.

Was it Rory Lobb last year?

 

[Guardian Hawk]

His start to the year wasn't good. His first seven rounds were him trying to fit into a new team. Plus he was stuck in a forward line in a team that could not get the ball to their forward 50, or when they did they did so poorly. There's been plenty of times when players start the season slowly and still make AA because of how good their second half of the year was. Recency bias is a thing.

Against the Bulldogs he was playing injured and could barely jump, and against the Blues we couldn't get it inside our f50.

And the game against the Cats he had 7 coaches votes, meaning despite his very average statline, he was still in the top 3 players for both coaches. Once again, impact on games goes well beyond statlines.

No one is advocating for him to be the main ruck, or start on the field. But he's impacting games as well as any other KPP, he should absolutely be considered for a spot on the bench. Since round eight he's polled in 8/14 games. That's got to be taken into consideration.

I hear what you are saying but this is the All Australian team. It's the absolute best of the best. Last year, for example, Sicily was completely dominant and didn't really have a single bad game and didn't get in. You mentioned yourself the year Lachie Neale missed out. Sam Mitchell missed the year he won the B&F in the top side and won the Brownlow. The standard is ridiculously high.

You can't have 'excuses' for 9 out of 21 games and still suggest he should be picked.

I understand he plays a different position to some of the names I've provided but we are talking about the bench. There is no obligation to pick his role if he's had 7-9 average ganes when there are players who have been outstanding all season and miss out.

On the 2nd Geelong game - I agree - I mentioned he was decent but that he still got towelled in the ruck (by an average ruckman).

He's had some stellar games and you must be chuffed as a Freo supporter but I think it's too soon for the AA team.

 

[s_wd6]

I hear what you are saying but this is the All Australian team. It's the absolute best of the best. Last year, for example, Sicily was completely dominant and didn't really have a single bad game and didn't get in. You mentioned yourself the year Lachie Neale missed out. Sam Mitchell missed the year he won the B&F in the top side and won the Brownlow. The standard is ridiculously high.

You can't have 'excuses' for 9 out of 21 games and still suggest he should be picked.

I understand he plays a different position to some of the names I've provided but we are talking about the bench. There is no obligation to pick his role if he's had 7-9 average ganes when there are players who have been outstanding all season and miss out.

On the 2nd Geelong game - I agree - I mentioned he was decent but that he still got towelled in the ruck (by an average ruckman).

He's had some stellar games and you must be chuffed as a Freo supporter but I think it's too soon for the AA team.

If Blicavs could make it last year then there's no reason Jackson can't make it this year. Especially if he finishes on 65+ votes.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

If Blicavs could make it last year then there's no reason Jackson can't make it this year. Especially if he finishes on 65+ votes.

I think Blicavs - who won the B&F at the side multiple games clear on top - was a 'easily the best team' influenced selection.

It shouldn't be this way but obviously is.

I don't think it will be the same for players from bottom 4 teams - where you have to be clearly the best in your role to even get consideration.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Another curious factor is that a ruckman finishing on the coaches association leaderboard hasn't missed out since NicNat in 2015. You have to go even further to find the top vote getting ruckman missing out.

Jackson is on top right now, but there's been little talk of him.

I would think Tim English gets the ruck position? Hasn’t missed a game and has carried the Dogs ruck all season.

Disposals: 2nd (0.61 behind Marshall)
Marks. 1st
Goals: 8th
I50’s: 2nd
Hit outs : 6th (I don’t know about hit outs to adv)
SI’s: 3rd
Intercepts : 3rd

Marshall next in line and in the mix. Gawn missed games and shared too much with Grundy. Jackson also shared with Darcy and some average patches.



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