Analysis 2023 All Australian Team Awards Night

[South of the Yarra]

Martin games v top-7 teams and bottom-11 (as who knows if GWS or Dogs will make finals, so I’ll include both as bottom-11 then we can do final numbers after next week:

Top-7 v the rest:

Disposals: 23.63 v 22.73
Goals: 1.0 v 1.45
GA: 0.75 v 0.73
I50’s: 5.75 v 4.27
Clearances: 3.25 v 2.45
Player ratings: 13.7 v 13.4

So less goals against top-7, which is probably not surprising as they have the best defences ….but superior in every other category.

Example : Curnow has 52 goals against bottom-10 at 4.3 goals per game and 23 goals against top-8 at 2.3 per game.


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Please don't try and put Martin in the same category as Curnow. He doesn't come close to Curnow. Curnow is a game changer who can rip games apart. He influences Carlton wins. Martin is a stat padder who kicks most of his goals in junk time.

 

[Partridge]

Wilkie should start ahead ofStewart.

It's amazing how many have assumed Stewart is a walkup AA this year. They haven't watched that many Geelong games if that's the case. For Geelong players Miers should be ahead of him, had a far better season.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Martin games v top-7 teams and bottom-11 (as who knows if GWS or Dogs will make finals, so I’ll include both as bottom-11 then we can do final numbers after next week:

Top-7 v the rest:

Disposals: 23.63 v 22.73
Goals: 1.0 v 1.45
GA: 0.75 v 0.73
I50’s: 5.75 v 4.27
Clearances: 3.25 v 2.45
Player ratings: 13.7 v 13.4

So less goals against top-7, which is probably not surprising as they have the best defences ….but superior in every other category.

Example : Curnow has 52 goals against bottom-10 at 4.3 goals per game and 23 goals against top-8 at 2.3 per game.


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A better comparison for Martin would be Ed Curnow. Neck and neck.

Both have no business being mentioned in this thread.

 

[Juddernaut08]

For the Blues, the only 2 that should make it are Curnow and Weitering. Newman made a late charge and could be a squad smokey, but unlikely.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

It's amazing how many have assumed Stewart is a walkup AA this year. They haven't watched that many Geelong games if that's the case. For Geelong players Miers should be ahead of him, had a far better season.

Stewart for me, hasn't been as good this year as he has in previous years

If he gets in, it's because of his past achievements and reputation.

I am biased but really hope Nic Newman gets one of the BP spots. He has had a career best season and a pivotal player in us turning our season around.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Stewart for me, hasn't been as good this year as he has in previous years

If he gets in, it's because of his past achievements and reputation.

I am biased but really hope Nic Newman gets one of the BP spots. He has had a career best season and a pivotal player in us turning our season around.

Newman would deserve it, but can't see him getting in given he doesn't have much of a reputation. Weiteirng a much better chance IMO

 

[Mr Meow]

Martin games v top-7 teams and bottom-11 (as who knows if GWS or Dogs will make finals, so I’ll include both as bottom-11 then we can do final numbers after next week:

Top-7 v the rest:

Disposals: 23.63 v 22.73
Goals: 1.0 v 1.45
GA: 0.75 v 0.73
I50’s: 5.75 v 4.27
Clearances: 3.25 v 2.45
Player ratings: 13.7 v 13.4

So less goals against top-7, which is probably not surprising as they have the best defences ….but superior in every other category.

Example : Curnow has 52 goals against bottom-10 at 4.3 goals per game and 23 goals against top-8 at 2.3 per game.


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He had high impact in one game that wasn't against West Coast round 1-13, by which time Richmond were 5-8 and their season on life support.

He finished with a wet sail but only 4 coaches votes games against sides that weren't the embarrassingly awful West Coast and North Melbourne isn't a high amount for a midfielder/forward hybrid.

Coaches votes

Round 8 vs West Coast: 1 vote
Round 9 vs Geelong: 6 votes
Round 14 vs St Kilda: 6 votes
Round 17 vs Sydney: 8
Round 18 vs West Coast: 5
Round 20 vs Melbourne: 4
Round 23 vs North Melbourne: 8 or 10 (haven't come out yet but it was his best game of the season)

If Martin had stacks and stacks of goals and assists to counteract this it might be a different story. He's had a huge uptick in those from round 18 onwards mostly due to the games against Hawthorn, NM and West Coast (3.4 goals/assists over the last 5 weeks) but had a measly 1.5 goals/assists per game round 1-17. That's the first 3 quarters of the season with little direct scoreboard impact for a forward. His effort against a good side in Melbourne a few weeks ago was great but overall his impact was way too patchy for way too long to be worthy of the AA side.

The hype train is running on TV/radio though so we'll see if he gets willed over the line. It wouldn't be justified.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Please don't try and put Martin in the same category as Curnow. He doesn't come close to Curnow. Curnow is a game changer who can rip games apart. He influences Carlton wins. Martin is a stat padder who kicks most of his goals in junk time.

Nice diversion. Didn’t want to comment on Martin’s stats comparing his performance against best teams v worst teams? I wonder why …..

And why would I compare Martin to a key forward? The point was no player kicks as many goals against the top teams as they do against the bottom teams and Curnow is no different.


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[Noidnadroj]

He had high impact in one game that wasn't against West Coast round 1-13, by which time Richmond were 5-8 and their season on life support.

He finished with a wet sail but only 4 coaches votes games against sides that weren't the embarrassingly awful West Coast and North Melbourne isn't a high amount for a midfielder/forward hybrid.

Coaches votes

Round 8 vs West Coast: 1 vote
Round 9 vs Geelong: 6 votes
Round 14 vs St Kilda: 6 votes
Round 17 vs Sydney: 8
Round 18 vs West Coast: 5
Round 20 vs Melbourne: 4
Round 23 vs North Melbourne: 8 or 10 (haven't come out yet but it was his best game of the season)

If Martin had stacks and stacks of goals and assists to counteract this it might be a different story. He's had a huge uptick in those from round 18 onwards mostly due to the games against Hawthorn, NM and West Coast (3.4 goals/assists over the last 5 weeks) but had a measly 1.5 goals/assists per game round 1-17. That's the first 3 quarters of the season with little direct scoreboard impact for a forward. His effort against a good side in Melbourne a few weeks ago was great but overall his impact was way too patchy for way too long to be worthy of the AA side.

The hype train is running on TV/radio though so we'll see if he gets willed over the line. It wouldn't be justified.

So he’s got 18 of his coaches votes against top-8 teams.

Langford has 10 against top-8.
Toby Greene has 10 against top-8 … has polled in just 1 game v top-8.
Charlie Curnow has 13 v top-8
Miers has 11 v top-8
Larkey has 8 v top-8
Papley has zero against top-8
Kasiah Pickett has zero against top-8
Charlie Cameron has 23 v top-8

* Curnow and Greene are rightfully locks, but just showing coaches votes against top-8 teams is a diversion and Martin votes better than nearly all of them. Coaches votes are also very hard to come by in losses.

As for R1-13 ( as a guide the average rating for a medium forward is 9):

R1: 23 touches, a goal, goal assist and 5 x SI. Player rating 13.7

R4: 23 touches, a goal, goal assist and 10 x SI. Rating 18.6

R6: 25 touches, a goal and 7 SI. Rating 16.8

R8: 27 touches, a goal, goal assist and 8 x SI. Rating 18

R9: 19 touches, 4 goals, a goal assist and 9 x SI. Rating 16.4

R10: 24 touches, 2 goals, 9 x SI. Rating 13.8

R13: 27 touches, 2 goal assists 9 x SI. Rating 8.5

So there’s 7 games from R1-13 with 10 goals, 6 goal assists and 57 score involvements.

And then he really kicked into gear, with his 7 x games he’s played post R13 netting:

189 disposals (avg 27), 11 goals (1.57), 8 goal assists and a whopping 63 SI’s (9 per game) and average player rating of 16.9.

But no, would be a travesty if he got into the AA ahead of all those forward candidates who have less than 13 coaches votes against top-8 teams when Martin has 18


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[Mr Meow]

So he’s got 18 of his coaches votes against top-8 teams.

Langford has 10 against top-8.
Toby Greene has 10 against top-8 … has polled in just 1 game v top-8.
Charlie Curnow has 13 v top-8
Miers has 11 v top-8
Larkey has 8 v top-8
Papley has zero against top-8
Kasiah Pickett has zero against top-8
Charlie Cameron has 23 v top-8

* Curnow and Greene are rightfully locks, but just showing coaches votes against top-8 teams is a diversion and Martin votes better than nearly all of them. Coaches votes are also very hard to come by in losses.

As for R1-13 ( as a guide the average rating for a medium forward is 9):

R1: 23 touches, a goal, goal assist and 5 x SI. Player rating 13.7

R4: 23 touches, a goal, goal assist and 10 x SI. Rating 18.6

R6: 25 touches, a goal and 7 SI. Rating 16.8

R8: 27 touches, a goal, goal assist and 8 x SI. Rating 18

R9: 19 touches, 4 goals, a goal assist and 9 x SI. Rating 16.4

R10: 24 touches, 2 goals, 9 x SI. Rating 13.8

R13: 27 touches, 2 goal assists 9 x SI. Rating 8.5

So there’s 7 games from R1-13 with 10 goals, 6 goal assists and 57 score involvements.

And then he really kicked into gear, with his 7 x games he’s played post R13 netting:

189 disposals (avg 27), 11 goals (1.57), 8 goal assists and a whopping 63 SI’s (9 per game) and average player rating of 16.9.

But no, would be a travesty if he got into the AA ahead of all those forward candidates who have less than 13 coaches votes against top-8 teams when Martin has 18


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I thought I was on "Ignore" buddy? Guess those were simply theatrics.

The players you've mentioned have massive amounts of goals, goal assists, or both - you know, the very thing I mentioned in my post. Pretty important criteria for selecting forwards in an AA side unless you're a top 10 midfielder who also scores well - e.g Dangerfield, Bontempelli, Petracca and (peak) Martin types over the years.

C.Cameron has all those goals AND more coaches votes against top 8 sides so there's an automatic walk in over Martin. Langford will finish with over 70 goals/assists which is self explanatory, and they are even on score involvements (Langford has two more SIs; games missed for Martin do matter for scoring metrics, like missing games can cost you a Coleman). Martin is in the Pickett and Papley bracket so you were right to bring them up.

You're making yourself look like a fool with player ratings. Nobody cares.

7 coaches votes, 13 goals and 6 goal assists from round 1-13 is a terrible return for a hybrid midfielder/forward. That's 1.6 goals/assists and 0.6 coaches votes per game for over 50% of the season to start things off.

 

[Lingsface]

Who would Richmond fans put in first Bolton or Martin?

 

[theasian]

Listening to Kane and Kingy and it seems like they will have a verstaile Fwd or Fwd-Mid on the bench.

Probably Langford and Bolton the favourites for the spot.

 

[blueiris]

Listening to Kane and Kingy and it seems like they will have a verstaile Fwd or Fwd-Mid on the bench.

Probably Langford and Bolton the favourites for the spot.

Probably Daniher as the 2nd ruck

 

[267Hacksaw]

Literally yet to see a non-richmond supporter arguing for Dusty in the side.
Let them have their rants, their dynasty is done.

 

[theasian]

Probably Daniher as the 2nd ruck

Yes, Certainly an option.

His goal kicking dried up the lastvfew rounds. On would think needs a big last round to be in contention.

6-7 spots up for grab.

 

[Daka]

My All-Australian Team

B: T. Stewart - S. Taylor - J. Sicily

HB: N. Daicos - J. Weitering - J. Sinclair

C: J. Daicos - M. Bontempelli(C) - E. Gulden

HF: D. Martin - T. Walker - C. Petracca

FF: C. Cameron - C. Curnow - T. Greene

FOL: T. English - Z. Butters - C. Rozee

Int: C. Serong - T. Taranto - L. Neale - T. Liberatore


What do you think of my team? I tried to be unbiased as possible.
Not sure if the AA is thinking about putting true wingmen in the team but I did and I think it should.

 

[theasian]

I've had a go at it.

B Sicily Andrews Wilkie

HB J Sinclair D Moore N Daicos

C E Gulden C Serong J Daicos

HF C Rozee T Walker C Petracca

FF T Greene C Curnow C Cameron

R T English M Bontempelli Z Butters

Int D Houston T Liberatore J Dawson K Langford

in the Squad- N Newman, I Quaynor, T Stewart, J Weitering, S Taylor ,L Neale, Z Merrett, T Taranto, j Viney, S Coniglio, A Cerra, T Green, S Bolton, D Martin, G Miers, J Daniher, J Cameron, N Larkey , R Marshall, M Gawn

 

[blaisee]

It's amazing how many have assumed Stewart is a walkup AA this year. They haven't watched that many Geelong games if that's the case. For Geelong players Miers should be ahead of him, had a far better season.

What does Tom Stewart deserving an aa jumper have to do with him being gifted one?

It was the same last year and will be the same this year

 

[theasian]

My All-Australian Team

B: T. Stewart - S. Taylor - J. Sicily

HB: N. Daicos - J. Weitering - J. Sinclair

C: J. Daicos - M. Bontempelli(C) - E. Gulden

HF: D. Martin - T. Walker - C. Petracca

FF: C. Cameron - C. Curnow - T. Greene

FOL: T. English - Z. Butters - C. Rozee

Int: C. Serong - T. Taranto - L. Neale - T. Liberatore


What do you think of my team? I tried to be unbiased as possible.
Not sure if the AA is thinking about putting true wingmen in the team but I did and I think it should.

Gulden and J Daiocs are locks.. Houston will be in . They won't select 4 inside mids on the bench.

Martin will not be in the team .

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

What does Tom Stewart deserving an aa jumper have to do with him being gifted one?

It was the same last year and will be the same this year

He fully deserved it last year despite flattening Prestia imo.

If he gets it this year, i agree it would be a gift based on his name and past reputation

 

[Daka]

Gulden and J Daiocs are locks.. Houston will be in . They won't select 4 inside mids on the bench.

Martin will not be in the team .

I agree, I don't think Martin be in the team. I think Shai Bolton is actually more of chance from the outside looking in.
But as supporter who watches us every week I think Martin has been more consistent 4th for score involvements out of forwards.

 

[Jmac3542]

Is Josh Daicos a lock?

Absolutely. Averaging 26.2 disposals. Been in the coaches votes 11 times. Been ultra consistent and damaging. Was in the squad last year. They love it when players back it up and go to a new level.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

My All-Australian Team

B: T. Stewart - S. Taylor - J. Sicily

HB: N. Daicos - J. Weitering - J. Sinclair

C: J. Daicos - M. Bontempelli(C) - E. Gulden

HF: D. Martin - T. Walker - C. Petracca

FF: C. Cameron - C. Curnow - T. Greene

FOL: T. English - Z. Butters - C. Rozee

Int: C. Serong - T. Taranto - L. Neale - T. Liberatore


What do you think of my team? I tried to be unbiased as possible.
Not sure if the AA is thinking about putting true wingmen in the team but I did and I think it should.

About as good an team as any I have seen posted here ! Great work

 

[jakson68]

My All-Australian Team

B: T. Stewart - S. Taylor - J. Sicily

HB: N. Daicos - J. Weitering - J. Sinclair

C: J. Daicos - M. Bontempelli(C) - E. Gulden

HF: D. Martin - T. Walker - C. Petracca

FF: C. Cameron - C. Curnow - T. Greene

FOL: T. English - Z. Butters - C. Rozee

Int: C. Serong - T. Taranto - L. Neale - T. Liberatore


What do you think of my team? I tried to be unbiased as possible.
Not sure if the AA is thinking about putting true wingmen in the team but I did and I think it should.

Credibility lost.

 

[Daka]

Gulden and J Daiocs are locks.. Houston will be in . They won't select 4 inside mids on the bench.

Martin will not be in the team .

Putting true wings in, I feel like too many players will be unlucky & miss out if you don't put them as Mids.