List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[SolGoodman]

This is the first time in quite a while that I think we have to genuinely consider trading our “stars”.

Now, the problem we have right now is we’d be selling at an absolute low, so unless they step up and the form fixes, we’re kinda stuck.

The bigger question is, who would we consider our “stars”?

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

This is the first time in quite a while that I think we have to genuinely consider trading our “stars”.

Now, the problem we have right now is we’d be selling at an absolute low, so unless they step up and the form fixes, we’re kinda stuck.

The bigger question is, who would we consider our “stars”?

The untouchables imo are Walsh Cerra Saad Doc Weitering and Charlie. The rest you could argue, rightly or wrongly are replaceable.

 

[thebluenewdeal]

The untouchables imo are Walsh Cerra Saad Doc Weitering and Charlie. The rest you could argue, rightly or wrongly are replaceable.

We’re slowly losing the plot thinking Cripps and harry should be traded after 1 bad season.

 

[gadj1976]

Carlton> Cripps Fisher Carrol + 1st
Wet Toast> 1st+2nd

Anyone apart from Charlie, Walsh and Cerra would not faze me one iota tbh.

I don't get why we are saying our list is no good. Our list is better than most, if not all but we're not coached, nor playing to our ability/capacity. The want/need to trade away players, or say "we need x" is just not right. We pleaded for Acres to top our list up, thinking we were going to be top 4 now we're saying we're not good enough?

Look at our list. We've got A graders on every line. Are they playing well? Fxxx no! But can that change around given proper coaching and game style - absolutely! We were 8-2 after 10 in 2022.

Forward entry is a real issue. Our forward structure is horrible but we've got the best forward line (on paper) in the comp, or comparable to the best. We need to 1. lead up the ground (thereby creating space behind us for the other forwards to lead into) 2. crumb 3. not lead to the same positions 4 block and make space for each other.

Mids - we're not getting clearances. That's structural as well.

Defence are doing ok. I don't know why Young was dropped but overall I'd say our defence is holding up well against ball movement that isn't to our benefit - ie, it's coming down way too easily.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

We’re slowly losing the plot thinking Cripps and harry should be traded after 1 bad season.

I don't think they should be, but if Austin goes berserk they'd certainly go before Charlie or Walsh is all I'm saying. Joking about Reid and the odd overreaction to some bad games I still think we're only about 5-6 changes away from being highly competitive.

This year has been a disaster well and truly but it's not an accurate reflection on our groups ability.

 

[SolGoodman]

We’re slowly losing the plot thinking Cripps and harry should be traded after 1 bad season.

It’s not as black and white as that though.

It’s more so, can we turn them into players or picks that help better balance the list.

It’s worth exploring, no one is done with them, but if you’re in the position we are as a club, you have to explore all potential options.

Problem again is their stock would be at an all time low.

 

[gadj1976]

This is the first time in quite a while that I think we have to genuinely consider trading our “stars”.

Now, the problem we have right now is we’d be selling at an absolute low, so unless they step up and the form fixes, we’re kinda stuck.

The bigger question is, who would we consider our “stars”?

Sorry mate, but that's a dopey comment. Why would you even considering doing that?

Going backwards and giving the opposition a leg up in AFL has never worked and will never work. Why wouldn't you think about fixing the problems within rather than trading players out, which fixes nothing and hides issues and patches over cracks?

Did Geelong do this in the Thompson era? Did Richmond do this in the Hardwick era? Have we learn't nothing from the previous failures of our recent history and other teams who have been successful in the recent era?

Clearly we haven't but it shouldn't stop us thinking progressively rather than the tried and true method of 'sack coach'/'rebuild list'.

 

[gadj1976]

We’re slowly losing the plot thinking Cripps and harry should be traded after 1 bad season.

Completely agree!

 

[gadj1976]

I don't think they should be, but if Austin goes berserk they'd certainly go before Charlie or Walsh is all I'm saying. Joking about Reid and the odd overreaction to some bad games I still think we're only about 5-6 changes away from being highly competitive.

This year has been a disaster well and truly but it's not an accurate reflection on our groups ability.

Yep, lets add another gun to a list that we can make mediocre....

I mean seriously, we need to fix the problems rather than do this rinse repeat thing we're doing now which clearly isn't working.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

I don't get why we are saying our list is no good. Our list is better than most, if not all but we're not coached, nor playing to our ability/capacity. The want/need to trade away players, or say "we need x" is just not right. We pleaded for Acres to top our list up, thinking we were going to be top 4 now we're saying we're not good enough?

Look at our list. We've got A graders on every line. Are they playing well? Fxxx no! But can that change around given proper coaching and game style - absolutely! We were 8-2 after 10 in 2022.

Forward entry is a real issue. Our forward structure is horrible but we've got the best forward line (on paper) in the comp, or comparable to the best. We need to 1. lead up the ground (thereby creating space behind us for the other forwards to lead into) 2. crumb 3. not lead to the same positions 4 block and make space for each other.

Mids - we're not getting clearances. That's structural as well.

Defence are doing ok. I don't know why Young was dropped but overall I'd say our defence is holding up well against ball movement that isn't to our benefit - ie, it's coming down way too easily.

I think you're over rating our list by an absolute mile. You stated we have a better list than all. That's a million miles from the truth sorry to say.

I'll also point out you've mentioned that we have A Graders on every line. Well that's good and all but how many A Graders on each line do we actually have? 1 on each line? And who are these A Graders you speak of?

If you posted what you've written anywhere else other than the Carlton board you would be laughed at. In fact, go discuss with your friends who support other clubs and tell them we have a better list than everyone else. Come back to me with their responses please, I'm excited to hear how much they think you've lost your mind.

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

Sorry mate, but that's a dopey comment. Why would you even considering doing that?

Going backwards and giving the opposition a leg up in AFL has never worked and will never work. Why wouldn't you think about fixing the problems within rather than trading players out, which fixes nothing and hides issues and patches over cracks?

Did Geelong do this in the Thompson era? Did Richmond do this in the Hardwick era? Have we learn't nothing from the previous failures of our recent history and other teams who have been successful in the recent era?

Clearly we haven't but it shouldn't stop us thinking progressively rather than the tried and true method of 'sack coach'/'rebuild list'.

Collingwood Trelor/Grundy

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Yep, lets add another gun to a list that we can make mediocre....

I mean seriously, we need to fix the problems rather than do this rinse repeat thing we're doing now which clearly isn't working.

I have no interest in adding another star. As a fan of the NBA I've seen teams that are clearly too top heavy that lack depth, they play hot and cold due to their reliance on too few and it makes it impossible for the role players they have to get involved and impact.

The 5-6 changes I'd like to see would just be replacing some of our current decent role players like Kennedy and Newman with players who provide a bit more balance to our list so they can actually support and compensate for our star players flaws.

There appears to be massive issues internally regarding unity and connectivity but as someone who doesn't work at the club I'm not to know how to fix that. I just know when I watch the same players turn the ball over and lack the spread and run we need I can't help but feel for Voss, even if he may be no good.

 

[gadj1976]

I have no interest in adding another star. As a fan of the NBA I've seen teams that are clearly too top heavy that lack depth, they play hot and cold due to their reliance on too few and it makes it impossible for the role players they have to get involved and impact.

The 5-6 changes I'd like to see would just be replacing some of our current decent role players like Kennedy and Newman with players who provide a bit more balance to our list so they can actually support and compensate for our star players flaws.

There appears to be massive issues internally regarding unity and connectivity but as someone who doesn't work at the club I'm not to know how to fix that. I just know when I watch the same players turn the ball over and lack the spread and run we need I can't help but feel for Voss, even if he may be no good.

which is very easy to do in the NBA but not so easy in the AFL

 

[gadj1976]

I think you're over rating our list by an absolute mile. You stated we have a better list than all. That's a million miles from the truth sorry to say.

I'll also point out you've mentioned that we have A Graders on every line. Well that's good and all but how many A Graders on each line do we actually have? 1 on each line? And who are these A Graders you speak of?

If you posted what you've written anywhere else other than the Carlton board you would be laughed at. In fact, go discuss with your friends who support other clubs and tell them we have a better list than everyone else. Come back to me with their responses please, I'm excited to hear how much they think you've lost your mind.

In fact, other supporters tell me we have a better list than they have. They say "with the list you've got, you should be top 4". So it's not necessarily my opinion, it's others. that I'm basing it upon.

A graders - top 10 draft picks for starters. They're on every line. Are they playing to potential, no, I completely agree, but they are there and selected top 10 for a reason.

Dow
Walsh
Weitering
Harry
Cerra
Curnow (pick 12)
Cripps (pick 13)

For starters. Other teams would love to have such selections.

Then we had SPS, who was pick 5, Setterfield, Plowman, Marchbank, Stocker (pick 19).

 

[HereComesJuddy]

In fact, other supporters tell me we have a better list than they have. They say "with the list you've got, you should be top 4". So it's not necessarily my opinion, it's others. that I'm basing it upon.

A graders - top 10 draft picks for starters. They're on every line. Are they playing to potential, no, I completely agree, but they are there and selected top 10 for a reason.

Dow
Walsh
Weitering
Harry
Cerra
Curnow (pick 12)
Cripps (pick 13)

For starters. Other teams would love to have such selections.

Then we had SPS, who was pick 5, Setterfield, Plowman, Marchbank, Stocker (pick 19).

You're friends are taking the piss if they are telling you that, or, they have no real idea who is on Carltons list!

And you're stating those 7 names are our A Graders. Am I reading what you wrote correctly?

 

[gadj1976]

Collingwood Trelor/Grundy

I think we need to work with the cattle we've got rather than throw the cattle out and start again for the 45th time - which has worked sooooooo well in recent years.

 

[no fate]

Off recent topic, but watching Liam Jones

19

Liam Jones

Age

33

Ht

199cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.4

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.3

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

134.5

2star

D

7.6

2star

K

6.1

3star

HB

1.4

1star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.4

2star

MG

116.3

2star

D

9.4

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

star in a fairly ordinary dogs side hurts. Someone that can comfortably win his position on a good day, we don't have many like that.

 

[gab213]

In fact, other supporters tell me we have a better list than they have. They say "with the list you've got, you should be top 4". So it's not necessarily my opinion, it's others. that I'm basing it upon.

A graders - top 10 draft picks for starters. They're on every line. Are they playing to potential, no, I completely agree, but they are there and selected top 10 for a reason.

Dow
Walsh
Weitering
Harry
Cerra
Curnow (pick 12)
Cripps (pick 13)

For starters. Other teams would love to have such selections.

Then we had SPS, who was pick 5, Setterfield, Plowman, Marchbank, Stocker (pick 19).

Being a top 10 draft pick doesn't automatically qualify you as an A Grade footballer, it really means nothing after you've been drafted.
Dow has never shown himself to be close to A grade and that list right at the bottom of your post, you can't seriously think any of them have been A Grade, can you?

 

[gadj1976]

You're friends are taking the piss if they are telling you that, or, they have no real idea who is on Carltons list!

And you're stating those 7 names are our A Graders. Am I reading what you wrote correctly?

i'm interested to know who you think our A graders are in that case.

Most teams would take 99% of that list in a heartbeat.

You don't think we've got a list capable of being to 4/8?

I do.

Setterfield and Stocker are doing well at other clubs. They couldn't even get a game at Carlton.

 

[gadj1976]

Being a top 10 draft pick doesn't automatically qualify you as an A Grade footballer, it really means nothing after you've been drafted.
Dow has never shown himself to be close to A grade and that list right at the bottom of your post, you can't seriously think any of them have been A Grade, can yo

I'm not disagreeing with you. I think we have a heap of A grade footballers who are playing horribly! But would I trade Harry/Charlie/Walsh/Cripps. FXXX no!

Let's look at Harry. You don't lose skill, you lose form. He can play, he's shown that, so why would you get rid of him?

We've done this before - we've removed players, we've removed coaches... that HAS NOT WORKED.

 

[gab213]

I'm not disagreeing with you. I think we have a heap of A grade footballers who are playing horribly! But would I trade Harry/Charlie/Walsh/Cripps. FXXX no!

Let's look at Harry. You don't lose skill, you lose form. He can play, he's shown that, so why would you get rid of him?

We've done this before - we've removed players, we've removed coaches... that HAS NOT WORKED.

Well, if you're talking about those 4 then we are talking about vastly better players than a lot of the others you mentioned. I agree on those, they are A quality players who aren't playing at their best, the rest have never even come close to it.

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

I think we need to work with the cattle we've got rather than throw the cattle out and start again for the 45th time - which has worked sooooooo well in recent years.

Looking at it as refreshing the list tbh.
Also forgot to mention Richmond did it with Deledio.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

i'm interested to know who you think our A graders are in that case.

Most teams would take 99% of that list in a heartbeat.

You don't think we've got a list capable of being to 4/8?

I do.

Setterfield and Stocker are doing well at other clubs. They couldn't even get a game at Carlton.

Just because a team would like a player from our list doesn't make a player an absolute A Grader.

Let's start of with your list. You put Dow down as your first A Grader. This is where you lost me. You also keep referring to players not even on the Carlton list in 2023.

I'm actually shocked that you are so heavily invested in A Graders and think that's how teams win premierships or challenge for top 4. It's not! It's the bottom 6 players playing in a team and this is where we are not strong. Like really really not strong. We don't have enough quality on our list and too many holes across the ground to fill in over then next 2 or 3 years (while our senior players may still be doing ok before the drop off).

Carlton currently have some very good players. A grade for me is the top 10 in a position across the league. Others may think it's a higher ratio.

Cripps
Charlie
Walsh (most likely)

Thats it this year and in saying that, Cripps has really dropped off and Walsh's disposal efficiency isn't as high as I would hope.

Harry cannot be trusted, Weitering has really dropped off, Saad I rate but he's making some major mistakes. Cerra has improved and imo is getting close to A grade but he's not there yet. And Dow, well I'd love him in the team but currently not getting a game comfortably puts him not in am A grade category.

There's no quick fix here and we cannot blame the coach. Poor disposal, terrible goal kicking and an extremely slow team that gets torched on the turnover is not Voss' fault. I do believe he needs better assistants by his side, but so much of the rott that we are currently witnessing must fall directly on the players, especially the leaders out on the field.

 

[gadj1976]

Just because a team would like a player from our list doesn't make a player an absolute A Grader.

Let's start of with your list. You put Dow down as your first A Grader. This is where you lost me. You also keep referring to players not even on the Carlton list in 2023.

I'm actually shocked that you are so heavily invested in A Graders and think that's how teams win premierships or challenge for top 4. It's not! It's the bottom 6 players playing in a team and this is where we are not strong. Like really really not strong. We don't have enough quality on our list and too many holes across the ground to fill in over then next 2 or 3 years (while our senior players may still be doing ok before the drop off).

Carlton currently have some very good players. A grade for me is the top 10 in a position across the league. Others may think it's a higher ratio.

Cripps
Charlie
Walsh (most likely)

Thats it this year and in saying that, Cripps has really dropped off and Walsh's disposal efficiency isn't as high as I would hope.

Harry cannot be trusted, Weitering has really dropped off, Saad I rate but he's making some major mistakes. Cerra has improved and imo is getting close to A grade but he's not there yet. And Dow, well I'd love him in the team but currently not getting a game comfortably puts him not in am A grade category.

There's no quick fix here and we cannot blame the coach. Poor disposal, terrible goal kicking and an extremely slow team that gets torched on the turnover is not Voss' fault. I do believe he needs better assistants by his side, but so much of the rott that we are currently witnessing much fall directly on the players.

This is my point. Either way it's summantics. Cripps wouldn't rate as a C grader this year statistically. Therefore we should trade him? Nuts talk.

I'm actually NOT heavily invested in A graders. I actually think, and have said multiple times on multiple forums that having no 1 draft picks do not win premierships. It's picks 30-50 that win you premierships. Having core depth across multiple lines wins you premierships. Again I go back to Geelong, Hawthorn and Richmond who didn't have 10 top ten draft picks, they had a better bottom 6 than most teams, which again proves that delisting 'A graders' doesn't actually achieve anything.

What we have done incorrectly is overpay our top end, meaning we can't draft that bottom 6 to a premiership standard. Geelong are the blueprint we should work from.

Just on Dow, he was pick 3 in a year where he got selected above Cerra/Davies-Uniacke/Naughton. He could've been anything. And who knows what he'll be. Is he A grade now....fxxx no. Could he be? I don't know. I think we've ruined the kid. Currently we'd be lucky to get a third rounder for him. See SPS for evidence.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

This is my point. Either way it's summantics. Cripps wouldn't rate as a C grader this year statistically. Therefore we should trade him? Nuts talk.

I'm actually NOT heavily invested in A graders. I actually think, and have said multiple times on multiple forums that having no 1 draft picks do not win premierships. It's picks 30-50 that win you premierships. Having core depth across multiple lines wins you premierships. Again I go back to Geelong, Hawthorn and Richmond who didn't have 10 top ten draft picks, they had a better bottom 6 than most teams, which again proves that delisting 'A graders' doesn't actually achieve anything.

What we have done incorrectly is overpay our top end, meaning we can't draft that bottom 6 to a premiership standard. Geelong are the blueprint we should work from.

Just on Dow, he was pick 3 in a year where he got selected above Cerra/Davies-Uniacke/Naughton. He could've been anything. And who knows what he'll be. Is he A grade now....fxxx no. Could he be? I don't know. I think we've ruined the kid. Currently we'd be lucky to get a third rounder for him. See SPS for evidence.

So you don't think a team would pay a decent ransom for Cripps?

And re Dow. I know where he was drafted. Can't just blame the club, player needs to take most of the blame for not becoming elite as a pick 3