List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[Accidental genius]

My take, and i stand by this, is that across the first half of last year we played attacking footy and were able to lay the hammer down on teams, but vulnerable defensively on the rebound.

When we lost to Collingwood (who most thoight were a bottom 4 team at the time) they scored several cheap goals 'out the back'. We only lost by a kick but there was a lot of tall about how slow we were in transition etc. Voss and co got spooked by this...

From the following week it was immediately apparent that we had changed strategy, with more numbers behind the ball and a deeper zone. We beat Essendon but it was like 70-40 instead of the 110-80 wins we had been having.

Ever since we have kept the midfield back and relied on forwards for pressure. We have been better defensively but much worse in attack, and in particular, we are getting almost no goals from our midfield.

Against the Bulldogs we pulled the trigger a bit more in the third quarter, scored heavily and took the lead, but then they also scored very easily when they won it back again and blew us back out. So Voss dropped everyone back again last week.

Also of note: Dow played that infamous game vs Collingwood (his first for the year) and had 21 touches... and was immediately dropped.

Also of note: Since that game Collingwood went on a 10 game winning streak, are 20-3 overall, and have destroyed everyone on transition with their run and carry. Did we look slow? Yep. Did we actually hold up about as well as anyone against them... yep...

Yeap. That make sense.

Can’t keep going like this. I’d rather have a go and try and win. I really enjoyed the way we played 3Q against dogs. The people on here going on about our list being poor should think about that. Coaching is what’s holding us back imo.

 

[My Hat]

Players out. It came about because some of our main 5 mids were missing, mainly Walsh last season. It's only because his impact was so good that this was continued.

Cerra and Kennedy have little impact rotation and mostly rotate via the bench. Walsh at half forward was used a bit last year when all 5 were playing but was only mildly successful IMO. Can nearly guarantee that Walsh's forward craft was never worked on. Cerra had an impact going forward at Fremantle but I've never seen it at Carlton.

Yes Silvagni is a half forward who is forced to play other roles, handy but he does not rotate or get a game if there is a proper forward ruck so once again this is a forced move and not a tactical move to gain advantage above the opposition.

The main 5 mids are half of our examples. It makes no sense to say their rotations have happened because some of them were missing. If anything, that would be an explanation for why they haven't rotated as much as they would have otherwise.

tbh it sounds like your argument is less that Voss doesn't rotate and more that we don't have enough rotational flexibility to be tactical about it. Thing is, I think that's exactly what we are trying to build with most of the rotations that we're discussing. It's just that it's still a work in progress for the majority of those players (and in Kennedy's case somebody misread the compass).

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Who is let go off the list this year:

Out:
Philp
Cuningham
O’keefe
Martin (trade for a pick - 3rd at worst)
McGovern (trade for pick - 2nd at worst - WCE)
TDK (trade for picks - late first and a second)
Curnow
Dow

Trade out future first with late first and a second for pick 1 - Harley Reid.
Use pick 6-10 for a running mid/fwd - Zane Duursma, Nick Watson, Colby McKercher.

Free agent pick ups;
Ben McKay
Lachie Shultz

Late pick for a mature second ruck forward
Sam Naismith

Nice ideas in theory, but that o

Yeah, because they won't play Dow and won't give much time to Durdin and Fisher in there. They also consistently play Cripps, Hewett and Kennedy in there. They would rather play them out of position than play Dow and throw Durdin and Fisher through there.

Backline is undermanned due to too many players not having a secondary position and poor selections when it comes playing someone out of position. We had 4 wingmen fit when our backling was missing players. Binns getting 30 touches per game. Hollands a young winger with excellent defensive attributes, O'Brien. We chose to put Kennedy in defence instead of a winger. What position is most like half back? Wing. At high level football half back is pretty much defensive wing with the need to drop back deep in defence at times.

You create list depth by having more AFL quality players but also by having more players who can play another position which IMO is a must have. Our development and coaching for some reason has gone the other way. We do not develop players to play other positions and do no play players in other positions as much or as regularly as we should. We do when forced to which catches players by surprise which is the wrong way to go.

Cook is one of the few who knows what they are doing and where we are at.

I dunno what else to say about Dow except I agree he should be playing and if not so, the club (and Voss) should explain to the supporters and members why he is constantly being over looked.

Fisher is a player I consider a massive disappointment, and one i don't Voss can be blamed for him not developing/kicking on as we all hoped.

Voss is still only 18 or so months into his job as coach, I do not believe he has been given enough time yet to judge whether he has failed in his coaching and player development duties

Hopefully we can get a more positive and surprising series of moves and player rotations tonight.

 

[Gointocarlton]

7-13 is mid table, two of those teams make finals. I would like to think we would be in the top end.

Shrink can say anything, end of the day the only way confidence is built is proving your ability to yourself. That comes from training well and playing well. That comes from good coaching, good fitness, good management and good development.

Lets shake hands and respectfully agree to disagree.

 

[Beyond Blue]

A little while ago Michael Jezz said we are about 10 players away from having a contending list. Having watched this last 8 weeks play out it feels about right.

 

[JustaBattler]

A little while ago Michael Jezz said we are about 10 players away from having a contending list. Having watched this last 8 weeks play out it feels about right.

teh good news is that I reckon it is only 5 .

 

[The Bighouse]

We’ve got too many players signed on for too many years that are not going to contribute much, or what we need at AFL level.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

If they even think about trading Harry they have given up.

 

[Beyond Blue]

teh good news is that I reckon it is only 5 .

On my count it’s probably 8. We need 3 small forwards, a mid/forward, a medium forward, a key defender, a wingman and probably a third defender. If we lose TDK we’ll need a second ruck too.

 

[Lukeblueboy]

How far away are Martin and Cunningham ffs

 

[JustaBattler]

On my count it’s probably 8. We need 3 small forwards, a mid/forward, a medium forward, a key defender, a wingman and probably a third defender. If we lose TDK we’ll need a second ruck too.

We need Cuningham and Martin back in ( I count them as two we already have)
We need a KP defender - it isnt Young at thsi stage he is too dumb to be a defender so that's +1
We definitely need a decent ruck another +1
We could do with a third tall who can kick goals +1
We could do with a genuine goals sneak +1

Not concerned with on ball squad at all - as long as they get fit and stay fit - which probably means we need two developing mids +2.

So 6 players required.

We don't need Fisher/LoB and Cottrell playing AFL on current form or Owies......these types are not AFL and never will be - Cottrell might be fringe depth the rest waste of time. I'd keep Silvagni and Dow.
We dont need McGovern or Martin unless Martin can get fit and I dont think Young will ever be a dependable KP. Iam quite concerned about Docherty aand have been for a year now -I think he is ageing fast.

 

[Smalls0304]

 

[ferrisb]

Big Docker eyes deal, pre-agents to watch, U18 titles kick off

Check out all the latest trade news from around the League

www.afl.com.au

Hey, the great news is that we drafted so poorly that we don't have to worry about losing any valuable pre-agents for a couple of years...

 

[ferrisb]

I usually don't like to single out names, but I never want to see O'Brien in the seniors again.

 

[Kruezing]

How far away are Martin and Cunningham ffs

When does preseason start ?

 

[djholmes]

Stop playing Young and O'Brien. They are soft as butter. Trade them.

 

[btdg]

So... we don't have a second or third round draft pick this year, right?

Do we need to set up a draft watch threat for the Ovens and Murray league just so we can actually discuss players we might have a shot at getting in the draft?

 

[macky99]

So... we don't have a second or third round draft pick this year, right?

Do we need to set up a draft watch threat for the Ovens and Murray league just so we can actually discuss players we might have a shot at getting in the draft?

Good,challenge for Austin to find some picks, pretty certain we will look to trade our 1st pick from the following year.

We will need to get 3 picks inside the top 25, who knows what happens with TDK could be another one there.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

Sorry, long post about Paddy Dow

15

Paddy Dow

Age

24

Ht

184cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.1

4star

K

7.0

3star

HB

7.1

4star

M

2.1

2star

T

2.9

4star

CL

2.6

4star

D

7.0

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

3.0

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

3star

CL

0.0

1star

D

12.4

4star

K

5.8

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

1.6

2star

T

2.8

5star

CL

2.6

5star

. Probably best placed in here.

I watch the Magoos pretty much every week (the ones don't give me much to get excited about). I've wanted Dow to succeed from the outset and always kept a close eye on him. I think he has improved massively in the last two years. Does that translate to being an effective senior player? I don't know, but neither does the MC. That's what worries me. We haven't handled him well at all.

Dow is not Pat Malone in not being great defensively, but not many ball focussed mids are. He works much harder and longer now than he used to. Lays tackles, corrals and buys into the team ethos. When Harley Reid played, Dow was in his ear about where to stand (it didn't help Reid in the middle who couldn't get near it, but the effort was there!). He busts a gut every week and even when he has a lean period, he works his way into it. He can now impose himself on a contest. If you are not watching closely, you might think he had 20, when he's had 40. That's because he feeds the ball quickly to others. He can use his short burst pace well, but I'd like to see him do that more (I think with confidence, he would).

Dow is an elite clearance player. He gets the ball in congestion. Even in the ones he could do that. BUT, he has improved immensely with his ability to get involved around the ground. He accumulates now. One of the great criticisms was he didn't get the ball enough in the ones. He was clearance or bust. Well, now he does. Is he damaging enough? By hand, yes. His ability to create space with handball in traffic is awesome. One of the issues for the senior team is that we don't get effective clearances. Too many hurried kicks to nowhere. Effectively handball to advantage can change that. Dow could be very influential in this space.

By foot he is not as good. I don't think he is a horrendous kick. He is pretty good around goals. He can hit a target and do it lace out in the right circumstances. Being an inside mid, he has a lot of hurried kicks (he has kicked more this year at times because I suspect he is told to). These can turn over. That can happen to anyone. He is not an elite kick but he is not a poor one. Maybe an occasional ordinary decision maker... put it this way, I don't think his kicking is a show stopper.

Last week, he spent time at half forward and found ways to get involved. That is a sign there is still something to work with and maybe the MC haven't given up on him yet. Still, I think he should have played long before now.

In the second senior practice game before this season, Voss appeared to have stuck Dow on a hot Errol Gulden for 5-10 minutes early on. He was torched and Gulden went ballistic. Paddy is not a tagger (bad choice of role) and Gulden was BOG with 45 touches and 3 goals. He didn't play exclusively on Paddy and it should not have been seen as Paddy's fault, but I wonder if it was.

Bear in mind, Paddy has not had a decent run in the seniors under Voss at all. It's been two years. In the back end of 2021, he was starting to find his feet. More ball, more impact. There was an Adelaide game he was excellent in. Several that he had an impact. I thought he would break out in 2022, but he was in the Magoos. I watched. He was starting to find the ball more but he was not getting opportunities. He's played 3 games under Voss (another as an unused sub). A couple of those were off the sub bench. That's not getting a chance. That's wasting his talent.

The wash up? Selection integrity demands he gets a chance. He apparently is well liked and a clean skin. He is not out due to poor behaviour or anything like that. He also is not Nick Graham (twos god only). I think he is much better footballer. Give him 4-5 weeks in the ones and find out. It is the least a responsible club should do.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Paddy will be a future hall of famer, but he has the ability to be much more than we have given him the chance to be. I thought the same about Matt Kennedy two years ago when he was in the twos. My thoughts at the time were we should contract him even if we are not playing him. You always need depth. I honestly think Dow is better than that but Blind Freddy can see he won't be here at the end of the year. I blame the club for that. We should have done better. We can still do better. Play him.

TL: DR - give him a chance and find out. He has improved.

I think the Carlton crowd made their thoughts known last night on what they think is an absolute disgrace he’s not been getting games.


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[teagueyubeauty]

How far away are Martin and Cunningham ffs

1-2 weeks


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[Accidental genius]

The midfield group is the engine room of a team.

Our midfield group is no where near where it needs to be. This includes the ruckman.

Cerra is pretty much the only one I have any confidence in moving forward.

We desperately need a couple of speedy guys, who can kick effectively on the run and on both sides into the mid group.

 

[HarryFlashman]

I think the Carlton crowd made their thoughts known last night on what they think is an absolute disgrace he’s not been getting games.


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It was pretty amazing, can’t remember that ever happening before.
I know that part of it was a piss take (we are collectively a huge bunch of smart asses), but there was genuine support for Paddy too, great to see that even when burnt, disillusioned & angry the fan base can still get behind a kid who has continued to show up for us.

 

[Accidental genius]

Hope is great and sometimes all we have but pinning hopes on Cunners/Martin/Marchy is laced with disappointment.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

It was pretty amazing, can’t remember that ever happening before.
I know that part of it was a piss take (we are collectively a huge bunch of smart asses), but there was genuine support for Paddy too, great to see that even when burnt, disillusioned & angry the fan base can still get behind a kid who has continued to show up for us.

Voss and the MC are treading a very dangerous path with supporters and members.
Lose them and they are absolutely dead in the water
Could come this week if Dow is dropped


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[ferrisb]

it won't happen overnight, but it will happen.

Thanks Rachel Hunter...