Autopsy 2023 Rd 5 Blues get smashed by Crows

[Show_Me_The_Money]

Why is the solution always just delisting players and starting again? We have been in this cycle for two decades, and loaded up with more 'talent' than anyone. This time round, we've stacked up draft picks, then we spent the farm on free agents... still can't make the finals.

Perhaps instead we should be looking at player development and our structures. In particular, our coaches seem incapable of getting the best out of the role players on the list - guys like everyone listed above. Our stars are firing - Cripps won the Brownlow, both our forwards won Coleman medals, half the backline has made All-Australian - but year after year we seem incapable of getting average players to contribute, grow, and become good.

Case in point - J-SOS. You can argue he is the victim of both poor development AND poor structures.

Development: J-SOS still, after 8 years at the club, has poor field kicking technique and almost non-existent weak side. His goal kicking technique is particularly poor for a forward. Even his biomechanics and running look 'off' to me - he's not as fast off the mark as he should be, and slow to change direction. Other than just getting bigger, what is he demonstrably better at since he came to the club? His stats have essentially plateued in every area since 2019 (when he was 22) - basically, he got big enough to compete properly, but hasn't developed at all beyond that.

STructure: One thing should be clear at this point - J-SOS is not a forward. In 103 games he has never kicked 4 goals in a match, and he has never averaged a goal per game for a season. He is a bad shot at goal, not a particularly good contested or leading mark, and not good enough on the ground. He DOES have some real strengths - he is good at competing in the air and then tackling/pressuring on teh ground, keeps his feet well, able to match up with big or small opponents, etc. and often plays his best footy when he leads and presents as a target up on the wing. His skillset would suggest to me that he is really a defender... like many failed forwards (including his father). He's 194cm (1cm taller than Steven May, who was AA last year, 3cm taller than both Mitch McGovern and Lachie Plowman); he's as quick as most defenders, and his disposal can be patched better in the back half of the ground. Alternatively, let's just consider him what he is (currently) - an undersized ruckman - and develop him into a specialist in that role (perhaps as a complement to TDK pinch hitting forward?).

There's many ways to go, but we cannot continue forever blaming our list management. At the end of the day every team and list has strengths and weaknesses. Richmond in 2017 lost their second best key forward to injury... Hardwick adjusted, built a structure based around unheralded small forwards like Jason Castagna, Dan Butler (21yo and yet to play a game at that point), Josh Caddy (a failed midfielder at his 3rd club, reinvigorated with a position change), etc. Collingwood lost Brodie Grundy for the season last year and were tipped to be bottom 4... they built a structure based around Daicos running of half back, doubled down on their strengths, and now they're premiership favourites. Geelong were too old, too slow... so they built a game plan based around their strengths in defence and won a premiership. You can go on and on, but what all of those teams avoided doing was blaming the bottom 6 on their list, shuffling the deckchairs and pretending everything would be fine once they completed their rebuild in 5-6 years time...

I like what you're saying but I see SOS as one of the best field kicks in the team. Definitely like it in his hands going inside 50m. Awful shot at goal though I agree.

 

[Korn]

crows sharp ball movement was difficult to watch...everything i want our club to be...

ball in their d50, 2-3 sharp kicks and all of sudden they have found a leading player inside f50.

they were very neat and tidy with their kicking, marking and hand passing.

their players were prepared to work hard and peel off their man into space and provide a passing option for the player with ball in hand.

footy isnt rocket science.

damn you carlton ..fix it up for ffs!

Spot on!
Their handballs are fast and in a straight line. We handball upwards high in the air in a trajectory to a stationary team mate and it takes ages for the ball to come down.

And all of their players know how to do side-step - one sharp sudden turn to the side to get rid of our tackles and off they go. Even their ruckman did it. But none of our players can do it.

We are not fixing it because our coaches don't see it as a problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[Accidental genius]

Spot on!
Their handballs are fast and in a straight line. We handball upwards high in the air in a trajectory to a stationary team mate and it takes ages for the ball to come down.

And all of their players know how to do side-step - one sharp sudden turn to the side to get rid of our tackles and off they go. Even their ruckman did it. But none of our players can do it.

We are not fixing it because our coaches don't see it as a problem that needs to be addressed.

If Voss can’t see that then he‘d have to be thick as bricks. He doesn’t appear overly sharp. tuff hard nutt footballer and players give him the respect he deserves but I personally don’t think he is coaching material. Failed at brissie. we gave him a second chance. let’s see how he goes.

 

[Keyza]

Such a disappointing result, although half expected.
It is really frustrating watching other clubs going past us. 10 years since we made finals, and that was thanks to Essendon.
Our gameplan is almost non existent, at least I am not sure what it involves.
As others have pointed out, we are too slow.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

Why is the solution always just delisting players and starting again? We have been in this cycle for two decades, and loaded up with more 'talent' than anyone. This time round, we've stacked up draft picks, then we spent the farm on free agents... still can't make the finals.

Perhaps instead we should be looking at player development and our structures. In particular, our coaches seem incapable of getting the best out of the role players on the list - guys like everyone listed above. Our stars are firing - Cripps won the Brownlow, both our forwards won Coleman medals, half the backline has made All-Australian - but year after year we seem incapable of getting average players to contribute, grow, and become good.

Case in point - J-SOS. You can argue he is the victim of both poor development AND poor structures.

Development: J-SOS still, after 8 years at the club, has poor field kicking technique and almost non-existent weak side. His goal kicking technique is particularly poor for a forward. Even his biomechanics and running look 'off' to me - he's not as fast off the mark as he should be, and slow to change direction. Other than just getting bigger, what is he demonstrably better at since he came to the club? His stats have essentially plateued in every area since 2019 (when he was 22) - basically, he got big enough to compete properly, but hasn't developed at all beyond that.

STructure: One thing should be clear at this point - J-SOS is not a forward. In 103 games he has never kicked 4 goals in a match, and he has never averaged a goal per game for a season. He is a bad shot at goal, not a particularly good contested or leading mark, and not good enough on the ground. He DOES have some real strengths - he is good at competing in the air and then tackling/pressuring on teh ground, keeps his feet well, able to match up with big or small opponents, etc. and often plays his best footy when he leads and presents as a target up on the wing. His skillset would suggest to me that he is really a defender... like many failed forwards (including his father). He's 194cm (1cm taller than Steven May, who was AA last year, 3cm taller than both Mitch McGovern and Lachie Plowman); he's as quick as most defenders, and his disposal can be patched better in the back half of the ground. Alternatively, let's just consider him what he is (currently) - an undersized ruckman - and develop him into a specialist in that role (perhaps as a complement to TDK pinch hitting forward?).

There's many ways to go, but we cannot continue forever blaming our list management. At the end of the day every team and list has strengths and weaknesses. Richmond in 2017 lost their second best key forward to injury... Hardwick adjusted, built a structure based around unheralded small forwards like Jason Castagna, Dan Butler (21yo and yet to play a game at that point), Josh Caddy (a failed midfielder at his 3rd club, reinvigorated with a position change), etc. Collingwood lost Brodie Grundy for the season last year and were tipped to be bottom 4... they built a structure based around Daicos running of half back, doubled down on their strengths, and now they're premiership favourites. Geelong were too old, too slow... so they built a game plan based around their strengths in defence and won a premiership. You can go on and on, but what all of those teams avoided doing was blaming the bottom 6 on their list, shuffling the deckchairs and pretending everything would be fine once they completed their rebuild in 5-6 years time...

Largely agree, JSOS has stagnated (not alone mind you) and had done jack (pun intended) to show he can hold down a third tall spot.

I disagree he takes a lot of marks - drops more than he takes imo.

Really miss a (fit) Jack Martin type but like most others, hard not to simply give up on him....

Honey too, shown sfa, as that bullocking HHF type....and Fish, well he's more often a disappointment than not. His 2022 season notwithstanding.

But all that's moot when the midfield decides to go AWOL.

Personally, I think the speed thing has nothing to do with it....

Kennedy with 2 weeks off looked liked he hadn't played all year and I'd lay a small wager that both Cripps and Hewett are carrying injuries.

And it appears they're not getting the maximum utility out of Cerra, for whatever reason!

 

[prisoner777]

IMO, we lack a flexible game plan and our mental toughness continues to be a key issue. If we don't bounce back and put away (not just win) the next few games, I suspect 2023 will be another "what if/if only" season. There is a pattern to the team's play over many seasons now.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

We were shit, we lost, we move on.

Ed Curnow (love him to bits) is now a liability. Took advantage twice when we had a free and turned it over both times, killing momentum.
Doc, Gov and even Owies were big outs structurally. Not saying we'd win if they were in. Obviously we were poor all over the ground.

Need to focus on a midfield of Cripps, Walsh, Hewett, Kennedy, Cerra, Acres and Hollands. Let them build and get some cohesion together. Hopefully Pitto doesn't miss any time, as TDK just isn't a 1st ruck option and SOS isn't working as the chop out like he did last time.
Speaking of SOS, I'm not sure where he fits in and what role suits him best? He's never really clicked as the 3rd tall. Had some great games here and there, but 76 goals from 103 games really isn't enough. Hard to put a price on some of his efforts, like the goal line save and his smothers, or 2nd and 3rd efforts, but he needs a role.

I've seen all I need to see from Plowman and Honey now. They can join Ed as break glass in case of an emergency. This game wasn't an emergency. Would rather get games into Kemp, Carroll, Binns, Cincotta.

It's round 5 and our first loss. It wasn't a good one, but there's still plenty of time to get things right.

 

[GeorgieBoyBlue2]

JSOS needs to go, below average third tall at best and don't give me this ruck option crap! Been playing 2 rucks so he has no inflated value at all. Only need one ruck if McKay does all F50 ruck duties and if we need another option Cripps can ruck in spurts as he is then an extra mid plus he is taller and stronger than JSOS

 

[The Sultan]

Is that you Voss?

I f I was we would have an awesome seconds side next week, half our senior side would be playing in it

 

[jj1978]

The writing is on the wall we need to rebuild the list on the run, through the draft. This incudes putting up some players with currency for trade, and hope Austin has identified some 2nd and 3rd round specials. Here are some names for you
Mcgovern
De konig
Silvagni
Fisher

These players can be good but we need to change our mix and for all mcgovern's positives, his fitness and age means i would test the market.

If we're anticipating picking up some father and sons in the coming years (Campo's) we might have the benefit of trading future firsts to get ourselves another first this year. Get some mild currency from trading a Fisher (Freo/WC), Plowman (handy for a rebuilding team for a year or two), but yes I'd definitely look to offload DeKoning.

If Geelong end up mid-low table this year, they'll start looking at a rebuild and would prob be quite happy to bring in a TDK for say their first rounder plus a 3rd, problem is don't know if they'll be allowed to trade a first rounder again if they drop of a cliff (so might be a 3 way trade scenario).

If lucky might be able to get some further currency (points) for a Dow, LOB, Owies type.

The other thing is bite the bullet and maybe trade a Cripps, if he continues this year as he has perhaps best thing to do right by him is to let him go home to WA. He's been a great servant but might be good mentally removing the need to rely on him all the time.

 

[jj1978]

View attachment 1659654

Lots to ponder about.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Hmm on the flight home this time I might ask for the fish.

 

[jj1978]

Let’s stop with the comparisons to ‘95. Clutching at straws comparing this team, this loss, to the champion ‘95 team’s performances.

Exactly, the loss to Sydney (who were not as awful as previous years and started building a decent core) was against a team G'd up for Barassi's milestone. The StKilda game was torrential rain, old open air muddy grounds and highly suited their list (or the theory we put bets against ourselves).

 

[JyeDye]

I don't think any teams look too impressive this year. It's only Round 5, a lot left to play. Game plan looks a bit rough, needs some tweaks. Docherty seems to be a bigger loss then I first anticipated, have absolutely no pace through the middle without him being that bridging link. Remove McGovern as well and Saad's left as the only one with a real penetrating kick. Crows were really good and used our lack of pace to run straight through us. You give Dawson 10 inside 50s with rarely any pressure on him you're going to get carved up.

 

[jj1978]

So a player is in range to take a shot, can they stop trying to pinpoint Harry/Curnow surrounded by a mob and just take the bloody shot.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

If we're anticipating picking up some father and sons in the coming years (Campo's) we might have the benefit of trading future firsts to get ourselves another first this year. Get some mild currency from trading a Fisher (Freo/WC), Plowman (handy for a rebuilding team for a year or two), but yes I'd definitely look to offload DeKoning.

If Geelong end up mid-low table this year, they'll start looking at a rebuild and would prob be quite happy to bring in a TDK for say their first rounder plus a 3rd, problem is don't know if they'll be allowed to trade a first rounder again if they drop of a cliff (so might be a 3 way trade scenario).

If lucky might be able to get some further currency (points) for a Dow, LOB, Owies type.

The other thing is bite the bullet and maybe trade a Cripps, if he continues this year as he has perhaps best thing to do right by him is to let him go home to WA. He's been a great servant but might be good mentally removing the need to rely on him all the time.

"if he continues this year..."
People said that the other year and then he won a Brownlow.
"do right by him"
Who says that's what he wants? He just signed long term and wants to take the club up the ladder.

Owies is worth more to us on the field than he would be in any trade.

 

[Blue since 72]

What they said: Voss on Round 5

Michael Voss shares his thoughts following Carlton's Round 5 loss.

www.carltonfc.com.au

My response to Voss would be stop playing Cez, Matt K and George off half back then. Wasn’t Doc only helping out late last year because no Kennedy, Walsh etc.

Pick a defender to take Doc’s place ffs.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Anyone seen Stig

Food was nice.

Was into the bourbons halfway through the first, insert footage, now it’s Friday.

That pretty much covers it.

 

[Cliffords Blues]

Apart from Walsh getting through the match unscathed, and Hollands continually impressing, the rest is very underwhelming.
Big task next week, how we respond next week will be telling of where we are at as a club hoping to play finals.

 

[chumpster]

It’s the consistently with both that kills it for me. JSOS takes lots of big marks and puts in some good games but he is very hit or miss from week to week. Same with Fisher.

Its an issue with so many on our list - their 'very good' games are not that good - average at best really, most wouldnt get named in the best, their average games are just ordinary/next to no impact and their poor games are shocking/putrid. And most of their games are the average and poor performances. Its hard to carry so many who provide little to no impact when they play.

Fisher, JSOS, Cottrell, DeKoning, LOB, Plowman, Honey, Dow, Cuningham, Fogarty,etc

You dont need 22 superstars but you need players who provide more than those named above provide week in/week out. Too many are getting by on very ordinary performances week in/week out. And some weve already moved on from but retain on the list for some stupid reason (Dow and Fogarty)

 

[btdg]

Largely agree, JSOS has stagnated (not alone mind you) and had done jack (pun intended) to show he can hold down a third tall spot.

I disagree he takes a lot of marks - drops more than he takes imo.

Really miss a (fit) Jack Martin type but like most others, hard not to simply give up on him....

Honey too, shown sfa, as that bullocking HHF type....and Fish, well he's more often a disappointment than not. His 2022 season notwithstanding.

But all that's moot when the midfield decides to go AWOL.

Personally, I think the speed thing has nothing to do with it....

Kennedy with 2 weeks off looked liked he hadn't played all year and I'd lay a small wager that both Cripps and Hewett are carrying injuries.

And it appears they're not getting the maximum utility out of Cerra, for whatever reason!

Thing is, you can apply the same analysis to all these guys.

Fisher? What has he added to his bow this year? At age 24 he's just a slightly worse version of who he was at age 23. Fisher played as a midfielder a week ago, had 28 touches and got coaches votes. This week he's back to the forward pocket for a forgettable 11 handballs and zero shots on goal. He's not a forward - he has ONCE in his 100-game career kicked 3+ goals and it was in his first game back from injury in 2020 (when, to be frank, he got a bit lucky).

Same with Honey - he's had some moments as a forward, but is he better now than he was 3 years ago? Given his speed and attack on the ball it would make sense to be running him off half back or in the midfield, to be honest, where he can still get forward and kick goals.

Cerra - we seem to have no idea what to do with him. He's not a good contested player or outside runner. He's not a threat to kick goals, nor is his run off half back particularly effective. What is his strength - he doesn't really have a stand-out attribute, but is a good in all aspects of the game. I'd probably play him as a strong side wing, as an extra midfielder at contests (with Acres going to the fat side wing, and Hollands back to the seconds for a spell).

Hewitt/Cripps both definitely not 100% but then again, so are a lot of players at their age. It's how you handle that. But with Cripps - what on earth has happened to his forward skills? First 10 games last year, it was his Brownlow winning strength - 16 goals in 10 games. In 15 games since, he has kicked 4 goals. His other barometer is marks - he hasn't got to 5 marks in a game at all this year and had zero vs Adelaide. Last year, he got to that range 6 times, including 5 matches where he polled Brownlow votes.

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

He just signed long term and wants to take the club up the ladder.

If this is true he has to improve his defensive running for me to believe that.

 

[skadoosh]

If Voss can’t see that then he‘d have to be thick as bricks. He doesn’t appear overly sharp. tuff hard nutt footballer and players give him the respect he deserves but I personally don’t think he is coaching material. Failed at brissie. we gave him a second chance. let’s see how he goes.

Contrasting styles isn't it? Our bigger mids would prefer to take on the body contact and absorb the tackle and then attempt a handball while usually off balance generally leading to a loopy ot misdirected handball.

The Crows were consistent in their ability to side step and dodge a would be Carlton tackler, keeping their balance and firing off a quick handball or kick.

I wonder if we have taken the 'be hard in the contest' mantra too far and have been coached to take the contact and have not placed any training/coaching into agility/dodging/side steps.

 

[The Sultan]

Apart from Walsh getting through the match unscathed, and Hollands continually impressing, the rest is very underwhelming.
Big task next week, how we respond next week will be telling of where we are at as a club hoping to play finals.

Motlop is still impressing, his rove and goal in the third was super.

With all the bluster about trading this play and that, my 2c worth, is there any merit in trading Harry ? We already have a gun big forward in Charlie, if we could snazzle a trade for Harry to a smaller type forward like Bailey Frisch and save a few 100k would it make us a different team.

 

[btdg]

We were s**t, we lost, we move on.

Ed Curnow (love him to bits) is now a liability. Took advantage twice when we had a free and turned it over both times, killing momentum.
Doc, Gov and even Owies were big outs structurally. Not saying we'd win if they were in. Obviously we were poor all over the ground.

Need to focus on a midfield of Cripps, Walsh, Hewett, Kennedy, Cerra, Acres and Hollands. Let them build and get some cohesion together. Hopefully Pitto doesn't miss any time, as TDK just isn't a 1st ruck option and SOS isn't working as the chop out like he did last time.
Speaking of SOS, I'm not sure where he fits in and what role suits him best? He's never really clicked as the 3rd tall. Had some great games here and there, but 76 goals from 103 games really isn't enough. Hard to put a price on some of his efforts, like the goal line save and his smothers, or 2nd and 3rd efforts, but he needs a role.

I've seen all I need to see from Plowman and Honey now. They can join Ed as break glass in case of an emergency. This game wasn't an emergency. Would rather get games into Kemp, Carroll, Binns, Cincotta.

It's round 5 and our first loss. It wasn't a good one, but there's still plenty of time to get things right.

The issue with Ed, as with Fisher, is not knowing what to do with them when the midfield all comes back.

Both played midfield vs North (at least after half time for Ed) and were good players. Both shunted all over the spot last night - neither is a good half forward flank, neither has really shown much in defence either.

With SOS, I think it is pretty clear that his best role (right now) is an undersized ruckman. He does his best work up the ground, particularly if you put his kicking skills and general field work up against, say, Reilly O'Brien. That chase down goal save - bloody brilliant for a ruckman! His second and third efforts? Elite for a ruckman! Think of him as a ruck (not a forward) and it's clear why he is still in the team - he brings very few weaknesses and lots of 1%ers to that role. Of course, that means we played 3 ruckmen last night, which isn't ideal in 2023 footy...

Plowman is still our sacrificial lamb - we offer him up for slaughter when there's no other option and often it just ssems to be to save the young kids. Last night it was as third tall playing on Fogarty... protects Kemp, he takes the flack when Fogarty kicks 5 goals, etc. Next week vs St Kilda he'll go to Butler or someone and have 4 kicked on him again rather than Cowan, etc. Whether that's a valid role in the team or not remains to be seen, but 'permanent whipping boy' seems to be his lot in life.

 

[gadj1976]

STructure: One thing should be clear at this point - J-SOS is not a forward. In 103 games he has never kicked 4 goals in a match, and he has never averaged a goal per game for a season. He is a bad shot at goal, not a particularly good contested or leading mark, and not good enough on the ground. He DOES have some real strengths - he is good at competing in the air and then tackling/pressuring on teh ground, keeps his feet well, able to match up with big or small opponents, etc. and often plays his best footy when he leads and presents as a target up on the wing. His skillset would suggest to me that he is really a defender... like many failed forwards (including his father). He's 194cm (1cm taller than Steven May, who was AA last year, 3cm taller than both Mitch McGovern and Lachie Plowman); he's as quick as most defenders, and his disposal can be patched better in the back half of the ground. Alternatively, let's just consider him what he is (currently) - an undersized ruckman - and develop him into a specialist in that role (perhaps as a complement to TDK pinch hitting forward?).

I don't disagree with anything you've said, other than stating that J-SOS should NEVER be relied upon to kick more than a 1 per game. 20 per year is a very good year for a guy that plays the role he plays. And that for us, with McKay and Charlie, would be a good year.