List Mgmt. 2024 List Management 📃

[DangerousD]

Couldn't disagree more.

Injuries have exposed us. Our list falls away badly if we lose a few players

Have the injuries exposed us because we trade out players on the fringe?

 

[DangerousD]

It's the trade-off for being a good team.

Your 23-30 players are probably best 22 at 14 other clubs and they can be obtained cheaply due to a perceived low value in the market. Every successful club has had to deal with this and it's pretty unavoidable - North & St Kilda offered them contracts & game time we couldn't match, what are we to do?

It's up to the club to draft, trade and manage their way around it.

Once you're a top 4 club it's difficult to improve every year, that's equalization for you.

I agree regarding Dow, he wanted more opportunity but Fish was contracted and it seems we were more than happy to move him on, I suspect it was to help with the cap, the issue for me is we then replace two players who’d been relatively durable with Fantasia who is injury prone.

I fear the same thing will happen with Owies, he will leave, hopefully Austin replaces him but then you have only improved the list by the difference in quality of who you bring in, if you bring in a better small and push Owies out, we are left with a much better back up option.

 

[DangerousD]

Difference is they had already recruited their younger talent and it was developing

Cats ability to recruit players from anywhere that step up is amazing. Clark was turned into Toby Conway (Looks good) & Phoenix Foster

Swans have drafted Warner, Gulden, Campbell, McDonald, Rowbottom etc all ready to step up. The mature additions are cream or filling a gap

Swans have a great young core of players but in relation to Geelong, I don’t see us as far apart, we have a very strong spine and core group of players, the Cats used first round picks to get Henderson, Touhy, brought in senior players in Black, Higgins, Rowan, Dalhous, traded first round picks for Danger and multiples for Cameron, targeted Isaac Smith as well.

There’s a lot of recruiting for needs there, over an extended period of time, they also have for years recruited senior players from the lower leagues with amazing success, Podsiadly, Taylor, Stewart, Kelly, Stengel, Mannagh.

We have a very good player base to build on

 

[DangerousD]

McDonald is an absolute butcher. He'll be 32 next month. Barely an upgrade on Young

Howard's had multiple hamstring injuries over the last 12 months.

I like spitballing players but not these two I'm afraid.

A 229 game key defender who averages 15 possessions and is a premiership player who’s kicked 169 goals as a back up forward is barely an upgrade on a player stuck in the VFL at his second club?

Come on.

 

[Beyond Blue]

McGovern is on $1M by media reports and contracted.

That’s not right. He might have been on that on his previous contract - he got his payday after the 2018 premiership - but he re-signed in 2023 for 2 years for considerably less than $1m.

 

[Beyond Blue]

Half the player but I'd rather just try and recruit Dougal Howard from the Stains. He's decent enough as a 2nd KPD even if he has some flaws. Been on the outer and doesn't play with the same timidness that Young does

Be cheap as chips, OOC too

He is a slightly better version of Lewis Young the way he holds onto the ball too long. IMO he is not a defender that could be relied on in a pressure cooker regular season match let alone finals.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

I agree regarding Dow, he wanted more opportunity but Fish was contracted and it seems we were more than happy to move him on, I suspect it was to help with the cap, the issue for me is we then replace two players who’d been relatively durable with Fantasia who is injury prone.

I fear the same thing will happen with Owies, he will leave, hopefully Austin replaces him but then you have only improved the list by the difference in quality of who you bring in, if you bring in a better small and push Owies out, we are left with a much better back up option.

Fish would have been handy for us this year...

 

[Beyond Blue]

One of the big list issues we have is the amount of long term development players. Mirkov, Akuei, Monahan, Lemmy, O'Keeffe, Moir. With the likelihood of another Irishman and a heap of kids coming in next season.

Why don't we recruit these types to our VFL list? I could not see any other clubs pinching any of them.

Bringing players onto the list who are 3-4 years away from being considered for senior selection. Isn't that a little dumb?

I think these sorts should have to play one year at least as a VFL listed player before we look at drafting them.

Looking at that list. We have made some pretty ordinary list management decisions IMO.

This along with our always injured group. We have huge lists of unavailable players week in week out.

List sizes aren't big enough to carry a heap of long term development players. I thought this is part of what having our own VFL side was supposed to be about.

Cat B rookies are fine, they are speculative by definition. Mirkov probably won’t make it but I think the club was within its rights to give him a chance. I’m still holding hope for Akeui due to his athleticism. I thought Moir was a bit of luxury we can’t afford but he Austen probably thought he was a steal at that pick who might have star potential if he got his attitude sorted. The problem with our list is there are 4 blokes - Sam Durdin, Martin, Cunners, and Marchbank - who are never available. Couple that with 2 season ending ACL injuries to Doc and SOS and we are 6 players down before you consider the rookies and project players.

What was dumb was Austen refusing to take 2 replacement in the MSD when our list is so skinny because of the above reasons. When you couple that with the lack of key back depth which has been an issue since Jones left, then I personally think he deserves the sack. I doubt that happens but he should at the very least be put on notice for his list management. IMO more so than coaches, players and fitness staff this bloke is the primary reason we are in the position we are in, instead of being at the very top of the ladder.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

Geez, really?

Dow & Fisher weren't best 22, they also had 5+ years in the system and were never going to come good.

E Hollands looks like a 10+ year player with AA potential, he's made us better and will continue to do so. Ignoring the Fantasia part who is just depth, it's a huge improvement.

I still would have preferred to trade out Carroll instead of Dow last year.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

Cat B rookies are fine, they are speculative by definition. Mirkov probably won’t make it but I think the club was within its rights to give him a chance. I’m still holding hope for Akeui due to his athleticism. I thought Moir was a bit of luxury we can’t afford but he Austen probably thought he was a steal at that pick who might have star potential if he got his attitude sorted. The problem with our list is there are 4 blokes - Sam Durdin, Martin, Cunners, and Marchbank - who are never available. Couple that with 2 season ending ACL injuries to Doc and SOS and we are 6 players down before you consider the rookies and project players.

What was dumb was Austen refusing to take 2 replacement in the MSD when our list is so skinny because of the above reasons. When you couple that with the lack of key back depth which has been an issue since Jones left, then I personally think he deserves the sack. I doubt that happens but he should at the very least be put on notice for his list management. IMO more so than coaches, players and fitness staff this bloke is the primary reason we are in the position we are in, instead of being at the very top of the ladder.

This.

Major **** up by Austin.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

McDonald is an absolute butcher. He'll be 32 next month. Barely an upgrade on Young

Howard's had multiple hamstring injuries over the last 12 months.

I like spitballing players but not these two I'm afraid.

I have not heard a single player mentioned who imo we would be more than a 2% chance of landing or that we could afford that’s any good.
That’s why names like Howard and McDonald get mentioned. They are actually somewhat realistic and in McDonald’s case versatile enough to work with Weitering.

I’m already looking forward to the anger at Austin for not getting totally unrealistic targets. It’s like people bringing up McKay from last year when the realistic targets were Zerk-Thatcher, Esava, O McDonald and Hambling. At the end of the day we are pretty screwed and we won’t like who we bring in imo.

 

[Sweet Seventeen]

I still would have preferred to trade out Carroll instead of Dow last year.

So what you are saying is, that Dow will go on to have a much better career than Carroll at the highest level.

Of course time will tell and Dow has been unlucky with injury this year.

Still I reckon we gave Dow enough time and Carroll is much younger and has a fair bit more upside imo.

 

[Stamos]

This.

Major **** up by Austin.

How is it possibly a major * up?
Which player should be on our list now that will be better than the options we'll have at the end of the year?

 

[Beyond Blue]

When Jones retired we had already committed to Cerra. We did go and get Durdin and Young.
When we took Hollands, Young was tracking really well for a 23 year old and we desperately lacked outside run.

Last year was the season we needed to make a move but we just came off a preliminary final which we were up by 5 goals. No side could really score against us either so I can see why they didn’t make huge changes by cutting deep to bring in another big name like McKay. I mean if we could afford McKay last year we can afford Barrass now so go get him, problem is I don’t think that we can.

I’m fine with getting Cerra. We needed to bolster the midfield given how badly Samo, Dow, Stocker, Setters and LOB were tracking at the time. Hollands and Busslinger is probably a coin toss but I’ve got no idea why we picked up Binns when we already had Acres, Cotts and (at the time) LOB on the list in addition to taking Ollie.

The key back depth issues was a problem the minute Jones walked. We should have got into Ben’s ear then. With his two at the club we should’ve been in pole position to get him. Back then I reckon we could’ve got him a lot cheaper salary wise (it would have cost us a FRDP no doubt) than the bidding war that happened last year when he was a free agent. His response instead was to bring in more injury prone guys like Oscar and Sam Durds.

IMO Austen is proving himself to be a weak link. We have no key back depth and lack list depth generally by re-signing injury prone players. You can’t blame Russell for Marchbank and Cunners. Hard decisions should’ve been made at the end of 2022 but they weren’t so we are where we are. Surely we see significant changes at the end of the year.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

So what you are saying is, that Dow will go on to have a much better career than Carroll at the highest level.

Of course time will tell and Dow has been unlucky with injury this year.

Still I reckon we gave Dow enough time and Carroll is much younger and has a fair bit more upside imo.

Carroll might end up having a long career, but he doesn't provide a point of difference in Carlton's team.
I'm happy to trade him to a W.A. team and wish him well.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I’m fine with getting Cerra. We needed to bolster the midfield given how badly Samo, Dow, Stocker, Setters and LOB were tracking at the time. Hollands and Busslinger is probably a coin toss but I’ve got no idea why we picked up Binns when we already had Acres, Cotts and (at the time) LOB on the list in addition to taking Ollie.

The key back depth issues was a problem the minute Jones walked. We should have got into Ben’s ear then. With his two at the club we should’ve been in pole position to get him. Back then I reckon we could’ve got him a lot cheaper salary wise (it would have cost us a FRDP no doubt) than the bidding war that happened last year when he was a free agent. His response instead was to bring in more injury prone guys like Oscar and Sam Durds.

IMO Austen is proving himself to be a weak link. We have no key back depth and lack list depth generally by re-signing injury prone players. You can’t blame Russell for Marchbank and Cunners. Hard decisions should’ve been made at the end of 2022 but they weren’t so we are where we are. Surely we see significant changes at the end of the year.

I wanted Busslinger over Hollands but I do understand the pick. If you want a laugh go and look at the comparisons people on here were making between Young and Jones in his first season. I think Young fooled a lot of people including the club. Austin 100% has to wear some of the blame, for me it’s more about not taking more picks at the draft (late) the last few years. Long shots yes but we needed to atleast try and bring some talls in. The coaching staff too have obviously not been demanding it. Last year the highest score against us outside of the GWS game in the last 18 games of the season was 87. Imo we just thought we could defend without another true KPD.

 

[Stamos]

I’m fine with getting Cerra. We needed to bolster the midfield given how badly Samo, Dow, Stocker, Setters and LOB were tracking at the time. Hollands and Busslinger is probably a coin toss but I’ve got no idea why we picked up Binns when we already had Acres, Cotts and (at the time) LOB on the list in addition to taking Ollie.

The key back depth issues was a problem the minute Jones walked. We should have got into Ben’s ear then. With his two at the club we should’ve been in pole position to get him. Back then I reckon we could’ve got him a lot cheaper salary wise (it would have cost us a FRDP no doubt) than the bidding war that happened last year when he was a free agent. His response instead was to bring in more injury prone guys like Oscar and Sam Durds.

IMO Austen is proving himself to be a weak link. We have no key back depth and lack list depth generally by re-signing injury prone players. You can’t blame Russell for Marchbank and Cunners. Hard decisions should’ve been made at the end of 2022 but they weren’t so we are where we are. Surely we see significant changes at the end of the year.

This just isn't right.

We got Lewis Young at the end of 2021, who looked really solid in covering for Weitering in 22. Then we picked up Sam Durdin in the 22 mid-season draft.
You're criticising bringing in injury prone players, but wanted Ben McKay? The same Ben McKay who managed 15 games of AFL across the first 5 years of his career? Who before last year had managed more than 15 games once in his career?

As for the hard decisions we should have made at the end of 22, do you mean cutting best 22 players who were recovering from ACLs?

 

[Crippa#9]

I have not heard a single player mentioned who imo we would be more than a 2% chance of landing or that we could afford that’s any good.
That’s why names like Howard and McDonald get mentioned. They are actually somewhat realistic and in McDonald’s case versatile enough to work with Weitering.

I’m already looking forward to the anger at Austin for not getting totally unrealistic targets. It’s like people bringing up McKay from last year when the realistic targets were Zerk-Thatcher, Esava, O McDonald and Hambling. At the end of the day we are pretty screwed and we won’t like who we bring in imo.

Yep, Fair point.

 

[Sweet Seventeen]

Carroll might end up having a long career, but he doesn't provide a point of difference in Carlton's team.
I'm happy to trade him to a W.A. team and wish him well.

With Cripps, Walsh, Kennedy, Cerra, Hewitt, Acres, Ollie and even Lord being right footed. His point of difference is he is left footed and does kick it with real penetration. Also does actually burst out of stoppage, unlike most of our others.

He is still just 21, think he plays this week as the Cerra replacement.

 

[Blue Pulse]

Cat B rookies are fine, they are speculative by definition. Mirkov probably won’t make it but I think the club was within its rights to give him a chance. I’m still holding hope for Akeui due to his athleticism. I thought Moir was a bit of luxury we can’t afford but he Austen probably thought he was a steal at that pick who might have star potential if he got his attitude sorted. The problem with our list is there are 4 blokes - Sam Durdin, Martin, Cunners, and Marchbank - who are never available. Couple that with 2 season ending ACL injuries to Doc and SOS and we are 6 players down before you consider the rookies and project players.

What was dumb was Austen refusing to take 2 replacement in the MSD when our list is so skinny because of the above reasons. When you couple that with the lack of key back depth which has been an issue since Jones left, then I personally think he deserves the sack. I doubt that happens but he should at the very least be put on notice for his list management. IMO more so than coaches, players and fitness staff this bloke is the primary reason we are in the position we are in, instead of being at the very top of the ladder.

To be fair to Austin, when Jones left, Young stepped in and played 19 pretty good games in 2022 averaging 6 marks a game and it may have looked like problem solved. Who was to foresee his decline the way it panned out?

But in saying that, he is obviously a "break glass in case of emergency player" and like you, thought we would pick up a big bodied defender in the MSD

 

[Stamos]

Last year the highest score against us outside of the GWS game in the last 18 games of the season was 87. Imo we just thought we could defend without another true KPD.

Our midfield was better across the board last year which helped the defence, and Marchbank came good for the last 8 games of the year.

There weren't really any good KPD options to trade in, but I would have liked us to draft one.

 

[Beyond Blue]

Carroll might end up having a long career, but he doesn't provide a point of difference in Carlton's team.
I'm happy to trade him to a W.A. team and wish him well.

I’m not sure Carroll is going to make it either and wouldn’t be too worried if he was traded but Dow is not the answer to our current issues either IMO. Granted he was injured in the preseason so he probably deserves a bit of slack but from what I’ve seen of him this year there is no indication he will come back to haunt us by becoming a good player. If I were a betting man I’d say he’ll be done at AFL level by the end of his current contract with St Kilda.

One thing I will concede Austen has got right is the players he has let go. Stocker and Setters are fringe players at their respective clubs. Fisher is only getting a game because of how bad North are but even then he has been relegated to sub one week and made to come back via the 2s after missing a game for injury, so he’s hardly a key player, I suspect he’ll be a squad player by the end of his 4 year deal. Samo has been delisted. Nobody has shown any interest in LOb, Philp or Honey since we delisted them. I reckon there is a good chance nobody will be remotely interested in Sam Durdin, Cunners, Marchy, Mirkov or anyone else we delist at the end of this year either.

 

[gbatman]

I’m fine with getting Cerra. We needed to bolster the midfield given how badly Samo, Dow, Stocker, Setters and LOB were tracking at the time. Hollands and Busslinger is probably a coin toss but I’ve got no idea why we picked up Binns when we already had Acres, Cotts and (at the time) LOB on the list in addition to taking Ollie.

The key back depth issues was a problem the minute Jones walked. We should have got into Ben’s ear then. With his two at the club we should’ve been in pole position to get him. Back then I reckon we could’ve got him a lot cheaper salary wise (it would have cost us a FRDP no doubt) than the bidding war that happened last year when he was a free agent. His response instead was to bring in more injury prone guys like Oscar and Sam Durds.

IMO Austen is proving himself to be a weak link. We have no key back depth and lack list depth generally by re-signing injury prone players. You can’t blame Russell for Marchbank and Cunners. Hard decisions should’ve been made at the end of 2022 but they weren’t so we are where we are. Surely we see significant changes at the end of the year.

Really really bad drafting. Slow players have absolutely no ability or desire to apply pressure all the way through our midfield from the existing players right through the discarded players listed here.

We have badly dropped the ball when it comes to closing speed, break away speed and quality pressure players when it comes to midfielder. Recruiters who have identified how the game was going to change and can identify players with these traits have down great jobs for their clubs and we are not one of those clubs.

I'm not sure it's entirely Austin or him at all. The team under him is the same team that was under SOS.

Badly neglected these traits when it has come to recruiting midfielders.

Our talls are ok but the spine is incomplete. Not entirely our fault. Bring in McDonald who was brilliant in his first game then injured for the rest of his career here. Bring in Durdin, injured all the time. Relied on Marchbank who was supposed to be the CHB but it also injured all the time and Jones left us due to beliefs. So we have tried, and been hammered with the curse of the CHB.

Too many bargains on our list. Slow mids. Gettable because, well, they are slow and clubs who have midfield depth filter off their slow mids. Like we should do.

Cottrell is a terribly player. LOB was a terrible player. At the time this is all we had. Wings were an extreme weakness. We drafted 3 wingers at the same time in Hollands, Acres and Binns. I'm fine with this.

I think we did the right thing with Marchbank and Cuningham. Sometimes players come good, sometimes not. This didn't work out for us. Other times it does. Adequate time has now past. I think after the way both finished last season we were all happy to see them listed this year. We should have been expecting them to fail and be looking to bring in replacements, and maybe we were but were unable to find them.

100% agree.

You can add M.Carroll to that list

When you add these names to names like J.Carroll Binns Young S.Durdin C.Durdin that either haven't stepped up or simply aren't good enough (or are at best role players) our list looks very very fragile.

TDK goes down and next in is Pittonet. What if he is injured? Mirkov
If Weitering goes down next in is Young
Who replaces one of Charlie or Harry if needed?
What if Cripps goes down?

In a lot of ways we haven't really suffered major injury set backs to our A grade players and when we do it really shows

i don't expect the same standard but IMO the drop off is stark

Yeah too many project players. I think we will clean out the current project players and injury prone players and end up with a lot of kids next season and that will commence a mini rebuild and we will be unlikely to play finals for the next few seasons.

I was heavily critical of our finals campaign last season and this years prospects and got hammered for it on here. It's looking more and more like I was right to be critical.

I didn't mind the look of M Carroll but again there is another player who has not played a game at any level. Even if fit would not likely be an AFL options 95% of first year players aren't.

Our holes are showing up badly this season. Those holes would not exist if it wasn't for injury but injury seems to be expected with a lot of these players.

We need a mini-rebuild. We need to find mature players to fill the holes for a few years so this doesn't smash us down to the bottom of the ladder. A mix of kids and experience is required.

 

[Beyond Blue]

This just isn't right.

We got Lewis Young at the end of 2021, who looked really solid in covering for Weitering in 22. Then we picked up Sam Durdin in the 22 mid-season draft.
You're criticising bringing in injury prone players, but wanted Ben McKay? The same Ben McKay who managed 15 games of AFL across the first 5 years of his career? Who before last year had managed more than 15 games once in his career?

As for the hard decisions we should have made at the end of 22, do you mean cutting best 22 players who were recovering from ACLs?

I remember thinking that when I saw his stats back in the day but then when you dig into it Ben McKay really isn’t that injury prone and certainly nowhere near the level Marchbank, Durdin and Oscar were. His first 2-3 seasons he barely played as much because of injury as because he was a young developing key position player, which is pretty common for talls. His brother didn’t really get a look in until the second half of the 2018 season. From 2020 to now he has basically played as regularly as his twin brother has who none of us would consider injury prone.

 

[DangerousD]

I have not heard a single player mentioned who imo we would be more than a 2% chance of landing or that we could afford that’s any good.
That’s why names like Howard and McDonald get mentioned. They are actually somewhat realistic and in McDonald’s case versatile enough to work with Weitering.

I’m already looking forward to the anger at Austin for not getting totally unrealistic targets. It’s like people bringing up McKay from last year when the realistic targets were Zerk-Thatcher, Esava, O McDonald and Hambling. At the end of the day we are pretty screwed and we won’t like who we bring in imo.

Did we try for Esava or Zerk-Thatcher?