List Mgmt. 2024 List Management discussion

[SizeMatters]

Problem is he is not developing the youth in the senior side because he doesn't believe in them.

With a comment he made the other day we are pretty much going to go into the Kangaroos game with one or two changes, and the outs will be the known scapegoats.

fagan is gone at the end of his contract though hopefully he gets moved on by end of the year. I just feel this season has been a wash. I've been to every home game so far and the Lions look old, stale and just bored. Laziness across the board outside of a few blokes. Game plan is shit. "we were a kick off the GF"... who gives a shit?

Nearly all teams fall down the ladder the next season after a GF loss. No one owes anyone anything. If Fagan isn't good enough he should be moved on. He's proven to be an almost coach. Most coaches don't make it that far when they start but it's just how things are. He's done amazing things with this club but he's peaked. Time to look elsewhere. It's only business.

I have met Fagan personally a few times when Lions played in CBR - I know his niece who lives there very well. He's a good guy and no ill wishes but he's not the right bloke to take us the next step. From what I've heard he's tired.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Port are fortunate to have much better drafting than us and it’s extremely rare to have a standout number 1 draft pick request a trade to your club

Still don’t have a backline though

 

[irel]

What you even on about bloke?

Ken has been in power for 10 years and were a kick away from a GF appearance in his first few years. Since then they have rebuilt their whole midfield for a start whilst staying very competitive. Why you just pick and choose? Be better this is just pathetic.

 

[martinson]

What you even on about bloke?

Ken has been in power for 10 years and were a kick away from a GF appearance in his first few years. Since then they have rebuilt their whole midfield for a start whilst staying very competitive. Why you just pick and choose? Be better this is just pathetic.

Kenny cops more stick from his own supporters than any coach ever in my memory but if you look impassionately at their performance he's done a reasonable job at keeping them competitive during his tenure with 6 finals appearances .

What their performance has been vs the quality of their list I'm not really up to speed on but they'll be up there again this year I would think. They've drafted reasonably well over that time.

 

[Section 5]

Fully expect Fagan to continue topping up with mature aged recruits this off season as he's been doing every season since he's been in charge. We need a mini-reset and start developing youth in a similar manner that Port and now Cats are going through. Play the youth so they can get exposed to more than bit part jobs in the seniors ffs.

Fully expect him to try to bring in spuds like Taberner or Francis.

Fagan was appointed in October 2016 so he got to use the 2016 class draft picks McCluggage/Berry /Witherden etc. in his first year.

Depends what class of mature age recruits you are talking about.
The ones that cost you nothing in trade value are included in the ones that cost you good draft picks.
So far Doedee falls into the failure category. But hopefully that may turn around.
Neale and others fall into the worth it category.

Personally, i would like to see a few more mature age VFL players or younger players struggling to get into good sides added to our "needs type player list" instead of picks in the 40 and over range.

However, i do agree in playing youth when they are ready.
The youth that have got the most games in the last 7 years (year 8 just started but no picks under 20) with Fagan are lower pick numbers.
All our picks 20 and under have worked, and that is a pretty good strike rate.
McCluggage, Berry, Witherden, Rayner, Bailey, Starcevich, Wilmott, Lohmann ?, Ashcroft, Fletcher.

All the over 20's picks are a bit hit or miss.
C Cox pick 24, J Allison 55, C Lyons 71, J Barrett Rookie, M Hinge (3 Lions games) Rookie, Wooller 41, Ballenden 43, Payne 54, Eli Smith 21, T Berry (20 Lions games) 36, T Joyce 40, McFadyen 42, Answerth 55, Madden international, D Robertson 22, B Smith 33, K Coleman 37, J Prior 59, B Coleman 24, Sharp 43, H Smith 48, Uosis international, K Lane Mid-season Draft 14, Tunstill 41,

Our Mature age pickups from 2016 onwards have been pretty successful also.

Year - Player - Age of Player

2016: J Frost 24, B Grewar 23, M Eagles 26 the Recruit, O McInerney 22

2017: C Cameron 23, Hodge 33

2018: M Adams 25, McCarthy 24, Neale 25, J Lyons 26

2019: Ah Chee 21, Birchall 31, Ellis-Yolman 26

2020: Cockatoo 23, Daniher 26

2021: Fort 28, M. Cox 24

2022: Dunkley 25, Gunston 30, Mc Kenna 26, McDowell-White 25, D Joyce 25 A late selection due to Adams late decision to retire.

2023: Doedee 26, B Ryan 25, B Reville 26 cat B

 

[briztoon]

Fagan was appointed in October 2016 so he got to use the 2016 class draft picks McCluggage/Berry /Witherden etc. in his first year.

Depends what class of mature age recruits you are talking about.
The ones that cost you nothing in trade value are included in the ones that cost you good draft picks.
So far Doedee falls into the failure category. But hopefully that may turn around.
Neale and others fall into the worth it category.

Personally, i would like to see a few more mature age VFL players or younger players struggling to get into good sides added to our "needs type player list" instead of picks in the 40 and over range.

There's the very real possibility that every pick we have in the next two drafts are used in matching bids on father son and academy bids. If the bid matching process is rejigged as has been discussed by the AFL, we might even be going in to deficit.

I'm hesitant to speculate to far ahead with our academy prospects, because I'm going on hearsay, and you never know if kids will continue to develop or stay in the sport, but there's already talk that we have draftable kids for the next four years, including a Copeland father son.

However, i do agree in playing youth when they are ready.
The youth that have got the most games in the last 7 years (year 8 just started but no picks under 20) with Fagan are lower pick numbers.
All our picks 20 and under have worked, and that is a pretty good strike rate.
McCluggage, Berry, Witherden, Rayner, Bailey, Starcevich, Wilmott, Lohmann ?, Ashcroft, Fletcher.

All the over 20's picks are a bit hit or miss.
C Cox pick 24, J Allison 55, C Lyons 71, J Barrett Rookie, M Hinge (3 Lions games) Rookie, Wooller 41, Ballenden 43, Payne 54, Eli Smith 21, T Berry (20 Lions games) 36, T Joyce 40, McFadyen 42, Answerth 55, Madden international, D Robertson 22, B Smith 33, K Coleman 37, J Prior 59, B Coleman 24, Sharp 43, H Smith 48, Uosis international, K Lane Mid-season Draft 14, Tunstill 41,

Our Mature age pickups from 2016 onwards have been pretty successful also.

Year - Player - Age of Player

2016: J Frost 24, B Grewar 23, M Eagles 26 the Recruit, O McInerney 22

2017: C Cameron 23, Hodge 33

2018: M Adams 25, McCarthy 24, Neale 25, J Lyons 26

2019: Ah Chee 21, Birchall 31, Ellis-Yolman 26

2020: Cockatoo 23, Daniher 26

2021: Fort 28, M. Cox 24

2022: Dunkley 25, Gunston 30, Mc Kenna 26, McDowell-White 25, D Joyce 25 A late selection due to Adams late decision to retire.

2023: Doedee 26, B Ryan 25, B Reville 26 cat B

 

[BRAB]

There's the very real possibility that every pick we have in the next two drafts are used in matching bids on father son and academy bids. If the bid matching process is rejigged as has been discussed by the AFL, we might even be going in to deficit.

I'm hesitant to speculate to far ahead with our academy prospects, because I'm going on hearsay, and you never know if kids will continue to develop or stay in the sport, but there's already talk that we have draftable kids for the next four years, including a Copeland father son.

How many top 20 picks do you think we’ll get from the academy in the next 4 years Briztoon?

 

[briztoon]

How many top 20 picks do you think we’ll get from the academy in the next 4 years Briztoon?

I genuinely have no idea.

Have to wait and see if Marshall turns out to be a top 20 pick this year. My initial belief is that this might be a draft with good depth out of Victoria, so Marshall might be pushed back a bit. For a little context, Marshall is probably the fourth or fifth rated kid on the Sandringham team.

I have no idea about the talent coming through the other states, but based on the U16's two years ago and following this draft cohort, both SA and WA look a little shallow for talent.

Beyond this year, a lot will depend on what changes the AFL make to the bid matching process, i.e. it's possible that to match a bid on an academy or father son kid, the team matching the bid will have to match with the first pick being within 20 spots of where the bid is made. And it's probable the the points value index will have it's points weighting changed. Early picks will have higher values and later picks will have lower values.

Until we see how the underage kids play this year in the Talent league, it's difficult to say where Annabel sits in next years draft class. He looked liked our second best player last year, behind Marshall, when playing in the academy team in the talent league, and that was as a 16 year old.

There was a lot of discussion about if so many northern academy kids should have been in last years U16 AA team, because it was split in to Div 1 and Div 2, but the academy kids from div 2 dominated the AA team.

 

[BRAB]

I genuinely have no idea.

Have to wait and see if Marshall turns out to be a top 20 pick this year. My initial belief is that this might be a draft with good depth out of Victoria, so Marshall might be pushed back a bit. For a little context, Marshall is probably the fourth or fifth rated kid on the Sandringham team.

I have no idea about the talent coming through the other states, but based on the U16's two years ago and following this draft cohort, both SA and WA look a little shallow for talent.

Beyond this year, a lot will depend on what changes the AFL make to the bid matching process, i.e. it's possible that to match a bid on an academy or father son kid, the team matching the bid will have to match with the first pick being within 20 spots of where the bid is made. And it's probable the the points value index will have it's points weighting changed. Early picks will have higher values and later picks will have lower values.

Until we see how the underage kids play this year in the Talent league, it's difficult to say where Annabel sits in next years draft class. He looked liked our second best player last year, behind Marshall, when playing in the academy team in the talent league, and that was as a 16 year old.

There was a lot of discussion about if so many northern academy kids should have been in last years U16 AA team, because it was split in to Div 1 and Div 2, but the academy kids from div 2 dominated the AA team.

Briztoon, the team may be headed for oblivion, but one silver lining is that your draft analytics are back.

Thank you.

 

[briztoon]

Briztoon, the team may be headed for oblivion, but one silver lining is that your draft analytics are back.

Thank you.

Honestly, I'd rather us be 3 and zero and looking like we're not going to lose a game this season.

 

[SpecialBruce]

My brother and I had 3 knee reconstructions each all prior to turning 23/24. Four non contact.

The length of time varies for each person really. It depends on how quickly the new graft can generate its blood supply. And of course a bit of luck. Particularly in your first year back.

Based on my experience proprioception was the most important rehab issue. I also think it depends on what graft you use. The patella tendon hasn’t failed for me but surgeons stay away from that now apparently because it’s more invasive than a quad or hammy graft.

In terms of its affect long term I wouldn’t say I’ve noticed it too much during games. I’ve also had half the meniscus out. It’s more its impact on the likelihood of getting soft tissue injuries that’s hurt me since.

Have pinged a hammy more times than I can remember. However being at the elite level there’s no reason why Doedee and Co can’t still play to their full capacity post ACL surgery’s. Just have to be patient and get through that first 12 months. Chances of reinjury after that would be smaller.

First time I did mine, I was cleared after 8 months but waited for 9 because the first game we played was on a shitty oval and didn't play a preseason match for that reason too.

The only reason why it went on me 12 months after I returned because it was established it wasn't done right. After it was done he didnt check it properly. The knee cap was scraping on the graft which obviously weakened it over time.

Not that it matters because the second time around he already removed arthritis (at 19). So even if it was done properly I would have gone again at some stage as the knee was bad. Case in point. At 40 I pretty much need a replacement.

Point is like you say, it all depends on how it heals.

 

[Scubaveg]

We haven’t brought in too many spuds over his time.

Yollman.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[buttermuffs]

What you even on about bloke?

Ken has been in power for 10 years and were a kick away from a GF appearance in his first few years. Since then they have rebuilt their whole midfield for a start whilst staying very competitive. Why you just pick and choose? Be better this is just pathetic.

Yeah in his first few years and then proceeded to miss finals in 4 of the next 5 years. There was a clear reason he went young and that’s because they weren’t competing. Yes Butters and Rozee took the reins in the midfield last year but they had already spent years being highly successful developing players.

We have spent five years competing and just started 0-3, just give it some time and if are actually going to miss finals or just make it I’m sure there will be some change in approach.

 

[Sproj]

To have talk about draft calculations again...what can I say...brings a happy tear to the eye.

 

[Elixuh]

Honestly, I'd rather us be 3 and zero and looking like we're not going to lose a game this season.

 

[briztoon]

 

[RoyBoy17]

First time I did mine, I was cleared after 8 months but waited for 9 because the first game we played was on a shitty oval and didn't play a preseason match for that reason too.

The only reason why it went on me 12 months after I returned because it was established it wasn't done right. After it was done he didnt check it properly. The knee cap was scraping on the graft which obviously weakened it over time.

Not that it matters because the second time around he already removed arthritis (at 19). So even if it was done properly I would have gone again at some stage as the knee was bad. Case in point. At 40 I pretty much need a replacement.

Point is like you say, it all depends on how it heals.

Interesting you say that about it not being done properly. The first time I redid it I went to a different surgeon for a second opinion. Julien Feller. When he looked at my scans he noticed the holes drilled for my graft were too big. And this was 17 months post op. So the quality of the surgeon also has a big part.

 

[SpecialBruce]

Interesting you say that about it not being done properly. The first time I redid it I went to a different surgeon for a second opinion. Julien Feller. When he looked at my scans he noticed the holes drilled for my graft were too big. And this was 17 months post op. So the quality of the surgeon also has a big part.

Yeah, when I redid it I went to David Young.

 

[McIvor]

The restricted free agent who could be lured away as Lions face “salary cap crunch”

“They will face a salary cap crunch sooner rather than later.”

www.sen.com.au

I’d hope we’re not even close to entertaining paying Jerry an amount that retains him and still being in the top 25% earners at the club.

 

[SpecialBruce]

The restricted free agent who could be lured away as Lions face “salary cap crunch”

“They will face a salary cap crunch sooner rather than later.”

www.sen.com.au

I’d hope we’re not even close to entertaining paying Jerry an amount that retains him and still being in the top 25% earners at the club.

Good Lord.

 

[Elixuh]

The restricted free agent who could be lured away as Lions face “salary cap crunch”

“They will face a salary cap crunch sooner rather than later.”

www.sen.com.au

I’d hope we’re not even close to entertaining paying Jerry an amount that retains him and still being in the top 25% earners at the club.

That article doesn’t take into account when Berry signed his current deal and how it is structured.

Re our broader salary cap the article also doesn’t take into account that a few of our ‘star’ players are on the downward side of their earning potential.

 

[StevoJenkins]

The restricted free agent who could be lured away as Lions face “salary cap crunch”

“They will face a salary cap crunch sooner rather than later.”

www.sen.com.au

I’d hope we’re not even close to entertaining paying Jerry an amount that retains him and still being in the top 25% earners at the club.

I laughed when I saw that he may switch clubs to play inside. Clearly Cleary hasn't heard about the shoulders.

 

[SizeMatters]

Hope he heads to the Suns. Good trainer and from all reports professional. But yeah.. he ain't no inside mid and he ain't got the skills to play outside. I think he would suit the Suns well and would re-join his brother but unsure if Jerry would appreciate playing in Tom's shadow.

 

[Tom14]

That article doesn’t take into account when Berry signed his current deal and how it is structured.

Re our broader salary cap the article also doesn’t take into account that a few of our ‘star’ players are on the downward side of their earning potential.

The article is doesn't suggest that Bez would be re-signed to a deal that would have him in our top 25% of earners either. I doubt he'd get that lucrative of a deal from us.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Great incentive for him to have a big season