Training 2024 Pre-Season

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SteeleSaints said:
Totally agree.

Its a simplictic view to believe the forwards were the sole reason for our lack of scoring. Our lack of scoring was more about how far up the ground our forwards had to compress because our midfield were getting flogged and the defence was under the pump. Hill was basically a full time mid starting at HFF, most of the time we struggled to maintain 1 stay at home forward. If that was King the opposition just double teamed him, which makes it tough to win the ball or lock it in.

The fix is to start having our mids win first use of the ball and to not have to constantly push so far into defence. The next is to have dominant marking defenders ala Darcy Moore who marks everything that comes near him. Howard's spoiling keeps the ball alive and a lot of the time still ends up with them scoring.
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Absolutely agree. Having our entire side on the defensive side of centre then having to play Pagans Paddock if we got a quick turnover did my head in
 
seesalswigs44 said:
How’s my boy Darcy Wilson going atm? Haven’t heard much about him recently in the training reports
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He wasn't particularly prevalent at training on Friday from what I saw, but as always he keeps moving, he runs, and he presents.

May take a bit of practice getting to correct positions and all that sort of thing so he can be used effectively, but any issues he has won't be through lack of fitness or effort. Looks a young professional player who has bought in already. Good to see - hopefully he follows the rest of the young crew along for that ride.

I like his disposal as well. From what I've seen he actually uses it quite well by hand and foot.
 

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Otiman said:
I think the "fix the midfield and the forward line will sort itself out" is very shallow thinking and will have us in trouble. It might even make our midfield look worse than they are.

No doubt we have focused on the midfield. Put a huge emphasis into this area in recruitment, development, and coaching. I just hope the same level of focus is placed on the forwardline.

No good having midfielders streaming forward with King trying to body a gorilla FB one on one. No good having Higgins as your primary lead up target. No good bringing the ball to ground and everyone has gone up for the mark. No good having your two key forwards leading into the same space. These are all the things we saw last year. Intercept defenders read our attacks better than we did.

Our midfield gap is about talent, run and spread. But the forward line is about structure, space, patterns.

Banking on returning talent and midfielders fixing our forward issues is going to result in failure.

I'm just not seeing enough focus on this in the training footage/reports.
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I sort of agree that the forward situation is flawed.

I know it's almost sacrilege to say, but I'm not convinced by Max King and Jack Higgins.

I want them both to succeed because they are Saints fans, they're great guys, and they have bundles of talent. But my view is that Max doesn't lead enough, and Jack thinks he's a 6 foot marking forward, they both need to develop their leading.

The thing about Max is that he spent most of his youth being a foot taller than most of his competitors, so never really had to develop other ways to get the ball. And this is why I'm disappointed that we don't have a fully established experienced marking forward in our coaching setup, although we did have Brendan Lade for a while and It didn't do us much good so maybe I should just shut the hell up.

But anyway, I hope that Max and Jack can both develop this year and regularly kick bags of 5 and 6, and become regular centurians during their careers.
 
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austinnn said:
I sort of agree that the forward situation is flawed.

I know it's almost sacrilege to say, but I'm not convinced by Max King and Jack Higgins.

I want them both to succeed because they are Saints fans, they're great guys, and they have bundles of talent. But my view is that Max doesn't lead enough, and Jack thinks he's a 6 foot marking forward, they both need to develop their leading.

The thing about Max is that he spent most of his youth being a foot taller than most of his competitors, so never really had to develop other ways to get the ball. And this is why I'm disappointed that we don't have a fully established experienced marking forward in our coaching setup, although we did have Brendan Lade for a while and It didn't do us much good so maybe I should just shut the hell up.

But anyway, I hope that Max and Jack can both develop this year and regularly kick bags of 5 and 6, and become regular centurians during their careers.
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Nobody is a centurion anymore, let alone regularly.
Have a feeling Max is going to make some look quite silly when he is healthy.
 
austinnn said:
I know it's almost sacrilege to say, but I'm not convinced by Max King and Jack Higgins.
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Fully fit, King is a 50+ goal a year forward all day long. You can't knock that. I do think though that at 23/24 he now needs to start imposing himself on games and impacting more contests in the air than he does. Take the 50+ goals, get to more contests and add more impact when he doesn't mark the ball.

I think Higgins...what you see is what you get. Some days he will kick 4 and some days he will have a shocker. Until someone comes along and has more days kicking 4 and less shockers Higgins probably in best 22.
 
austinnn said:
I know it's almost sacrilege to say, but I'm not convinced by Max King and Jack Higgins
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Would love King to mold his game more like Daniher & Higgins just about in his hip pocket, following him everywhere.
 
austinnn said:
I sort of agree that the forward situation is flawed.

I know it's almost sacrilege to say, but I'm not convinced by Max King and Jack Higgins.

I want them both to succeed because they are Saints fans, they're great guys, and they have bundles of talent. But my view is that Max doesn't lead enough, and Jack thinks he's a 6 foot marking forward, they both need to develop their leading.

The thing about Max is that he spent most of his youth being a foot taller than most of his competitors, so never really had to develop other ways to get the ball. And this is why I'm disappointed that we don't have a fully established experienced marking forward in our coaching setup, although we did have Brendan Lade for a while and It didn't do us much good so maybe I should just shut the hell up.

But anyway, I hope that Max and Jack can both develop this year and regularly kick bags of 5 and 6, and become regular centurians during their careers.
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Harsh marker. King came back in off a shoulder and kicked 28.12. I thought he'd made a huge leap since he last played. Moved better and didn't just stand under the ball like Ratts had him doing. Snags lead the Coleman early in the season. If he can ever string a full season together he could be a star.

To me the forward line is our biggest unknown. All of 2023 we patched together a structure with no continuity. Hammer off zero VFL games and a year out injured. Phillipou zero games, Mitch Owens off about 6 games, Coops off about 6 games, Cordy a journey man tall depth option, Membrey injured, King injured etc.

Under Lyon every piece of the structure has looked more professional, better drilled and like part of a bigger plan. The forwards didn't get to be part of that due to the above.

Our midfield was very limited because we just don't have much depth beyond Crouch, Steele, Ross etc. Our wings were excellent though. Hill, Wood, Byrnes etc. Running link-up backs were excellent- Nas and Sincs etc.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Lyon and the other coaching staff can do with a more full list to work with. Another year of drilling his plan, another preseason of smashing the run into their legs and new cattle to bolster the midfield.

Bring on season 2024, we might not win as many games even but I reckon we have planted some seeds that are actually going to bear fruit this time. I feel hope again.
 
Grav said:
Would love King to mold his game more like Daniher & Higgins just about in his hip pocket, following him everywhere.
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I think Higgins needs get fit and become a running high HF. Like Ratts had Membrey playing. He's not a crumber or goal sneak. He's more that Ryan O'Keefe/ Stevie J type. Probably needs to patrol the forward 50 after running with the play and make his own space.
 

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Ricmel said:
Fully fit, King is a 50+ goal a year forward all day long. You can't knock that. I do think though that at 23/24 he now needs to start imposing himself on games and impacting more contests in the air than he does. Take the 50+ goals, get to more contests and add more impact when he doesn't mark the ball.

I think Higgins...what you see is what you get. Some days he will kick 4 and some days he will have a shocker. Until someone comes along and has more days kicking 4 and less shockers Higgins probably in best 22.
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28.12 off a serious injury in 11 games. Over a 24 game season and if you add some finals in and he could easily kick 50+. He's at the right age to smash the game open if he can stay fit.

Higgins probably in competition with Owens, Phillipou and Coops as that in-between size forward runner..He's at the right age to step up but if he doesn't there are guys breathing down his neck.
 
King has the biggest ceiling of any player that’s walked through our doors since Riewoldt, and he’s barely scratching the surface whilst averaging 2.5 goals a game.

If he stays healthy, and we improve our entries he could well be an 80 goal a year type in his prime, which in todays day and age is insanely good.

At worst he’ll be a 50 goal a year type which many premiers have had worse.

He’ll be okay.
 
King averaged 2.5 goals per game last season, the same as Tom Hawkins.
Only Jeremy Cameron, Toby Greene , Nick Larkey, Charlie Curnow , and Taylor Walker averaged higher.

Some of them are getting on, and probably safe to say they won't get any better. Can't say that about Max.

Ohhhh but Max might not be good enough.... :drunk:

But wait, Max's game against Melbourne had only 1% time on ground.
If we ignore that game , his average goes up to 2.8.
That's more than Cameron and the same as Greene.

Statistically he's the third best tall forward in the contest.
 
gringo2011 said:
Harsh marker. King came back in off a shoulder and kicked 28.12. I thought he'd made a huge leap since he last played. Moved better and didn't just stand under the ball like Ratts had him doing. Snags lead the Coleman early in the season. If he can ever string a full season together he could be a star.

To me the forward line is our biggest unknown. All of 2023 we patched together a structure with no continuity. Hammer off zero VFL games and a year out injured. Phillipou zero games, Mitch Owens off about 6 games, Coops off about 6 games, Cordy a journey man tall depth option, Membrey injured, King injured etc.

Under Lyon every piece of the structure has looked more professional, better drilled and like part of a bigger plan. The forwards didn't get to be part of that due to the above.

Our midfield was very limited because we just don't have much depth beyond Crouch, Steele, Ross etc. Our wings were excellent though. Hill, Wood, Byrnes etc. Running link-up backs were excellent- Nas and Sincs etc.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Lyon and the other coaching staff can do with a more full list to work with. Another year of drilling his plan, another preseason of smashing the run into their legs and new cattle to bolster the midfield.

Bring on season 2024, we might not win as many games even but I reckon we have planted some seeds that are actually going to bear fruit this time. I feel hope again.
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Hi All,
First time poster, have been on this site for a while as a mad Sainter and just made an account this morning!!

I agree with this and believe we often judge King on the negatives rather than the positives. His a 50+ goal kicker and in 2022 at aged 21/22 he kicked 52 goals... if we look at other gun key forwards not many kicked 50+ so young we forget this. Fully fit coming into his 5th/6th season he will easily kick 50+ and could win the Coleman. He gets as many shots as any key forward on goal and fingers crossed his kicking is getting better going from 2023.
 
paul_willo said:
Hi All,
First time poster, have been on this site for a while as a mad Sainter and just made an account this morning!!

I agree with this and believe we often judge King on the negatives rather than the positives. His a 50+ goal kicker and in 2022 at aged 21/22 he kicked 52 goals... if we look at other gun key forwards not many kicked 50+ so young we forget this. Fully fit coming into his 5th/6th season he will easily kick 50+ and could win the Coleman. He gets as many shots as any key forward on goal and fingers crossed his kicking is getting better going from 2023.
Click to expand...


Welcome PW, good to see another voice on here.
 
100% on King though. We mark him harshly because we are impatient. He's got the tools to be the best KPF in the league. At 23 he's just scratching the surface.
 
Thanks Gringo!

Agree he has all the tools and is improving rapidly, won't be long before he is considered one of the top key forwards as long as stays fit. Every club would love a Max King and would sign him on a crazy deal like the dogs did with Naughton :tearsofjoy:
 
Hopefully we have a few good options in the forward line, think King, Membrey, Owens ,and the smalls.

IF our midfield do it dumb, they bomb it to King ever time.
IF our midfield do it right, then they pick the best target each time.

If the latter, it might mean that King kicks less goals than the former. Doesn't matter. We've had Coleman medallists since the 1960s.
 
Joffaboy said:
King had a s.hit final and still managed to kick 3.
With a busted shoulder, with no preseason, in a team where the mids were badly mauled.
Cut him some slack.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app
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And while playing on Taylor who is considered to one of the best full backs in the comp.

Even looking at his rd22 and 23 games - kicked 6.1 and 3.3 respectively, while clearly not being able to run out the game. Get him to the average level of fitness and playing with a 2nd working shoulder, his potential output is ridiculously high.
 
Not sure why we are worried about King.

Take out his first year with us (2019) as he was injured, 2022 was his 3rd year of actually playing and he kicked 52.41, in a side that was all over the shop. If he converts say at least 25% of those misses (which was doable considering some of his misses that year) he would have finished with 62/63 goals for the year. Curnow won the coleman with 64 goals that year. Last year he was on a similar path with the games he played.

A fully fit and functional Max King in 2024 will see him at the top of the coleman leaderboard IMO
 

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