VFL 2024 Sandringham Zebras

[Premium]

Mitch still leading the AFL in post clearance contested possesions despite being poor compared to last year.

I'm sure he will come good.

He still doing far more than Membery

 

[Mav3rick]

Henry's been injured. Stocker's had a few centre bounces. Nas doesn't look like a midfielder to me. Don't really know about Owens but I guess there's a reason.

I reckon they've been playing Seb in the midfield (I'd rather see him out) because they haven't had a lot of other good options. Everyone wants us to win games and that's not going to happen trying guys out in the middle. Garcia had three games in there; zero impact. Pou had three games in there; zero impact. Henry had one game in there then got injured. Byrnes has had a few runs. Battle and Stocker each had a little bit of a go. They've been trying things.

And I reckon the "not getting the best out of the list" was just a nicer way of saying "we think he's a deadshit".

With Dow and Clark healthy they'll get a go soon and hopefully they take the opportunity. Robert Harvey said on radio Owens wants to play forward and that's where he's trained, but I don't get why he isn't at least being thrown in a bit like last year to get him into the game more. He's just a contested beast, I have little doubt he will end up playing at least 50/50 mid/forward once Steele is gone.

 

[littlecreatures]

Mitch has a weird ratio of contested to uncontested possessions. There's only been one game this year where he had more uncontested than contested - overall he's had 76 contested possessions and only 48 uncontested.

Not many non-rucks in the league have that sort of ratio. The list is:

Matt Rowell: 15.8 / 8.4 = 65% contested
Sam Berry: 6.4 / 3.6 = 64% contested
Hugo Garcia: 6.2 / 3.8 = 62% contested
Mitch Owens: 8.4 / 5.3 = 61% contested
Tom Liberatore: 14.8 / 10.5 = 59% contested
Elliot Yeo: 13.6 / 10.0 = 58% contested
Patrick Cripps: 15.0 / 12.6 = 54% contested
Tom Atkins: 8.6 / 7.4 = 54% contested
Jack Higgins: 6.7 / 6.0 = 53% contested
Izak Rankine: 9.3 / 8.6 = 52% contested
Ollie Wines: 12.8 / 11.8 = 52% contested

My interpretation of this is that he's not finding space enough, he should be having the same amount of contested ball but twice as much uncontested - making position to receive.

I definitely get the sense his understanding of the game needs a lot of work and in the midfield that's only more highlighted so maybe that's the source of their reticence?

From memory, Rowell was getting knocked early on for the same issues, he just couldn’t find enough uncontested ball, wasn’t finding enough space. It’s not uncommon, I’m sure he’ll come good.

 

[austinnn]

Membery kicked 3 against the Dogs but he wasn't seen for 3 quarters - Owens is not being use in the position he is made for and that is a ball extractor in the middle.

We gave heaps to Richardson because he had no plan B , knowing his list was hopeless and Lyon has a far better list and he doesn't even have a plan A - Where is Basset how is his review going / w/ker

I thought you were the infallible Mr Positive on this board, seems like Mr Lyon has broken all that - something go on between you two in Perth?

 

[SG34]

With Dow and Clark healthy they'll get a go soon and hopefully they take the opportunity. Robert Harvey said on radio Owens wants to play forward and that's where he's trained, but I don't get why he isn't at least being thrown in a bit like last year to get him into the game more. He's just a contested beast, I have little doubt he will end up playing at least 50/50 mid/forward once Steele is gone.

IMO

A lot of angst about Pou, Mitchito and especially King is 20% because we've had a string of 'could-a-beans' over the last decade, and 80%, now after the initial excitment - now crucually, we sense that we might have tricked ourselves like aself-created mirage.

We've had enough of Jack Billingss, Greshams, the McCartins, the bit players that looked promising but were ultimately duds, (Kent, Parker) and especially now, we see some players who had class right at the tipping point. Hunter Clark, for instance. Will he make it now? I don't know. I don't even know about Dow already, and he hasn't even played! from the reports from Sandy it 'aint great and then you see the way Carlton kept dropping him and keeping him dropped. The frustration with Bonner and the mixed feelings of PA fans resonates with the Dow and Carlton. It's an eerie feeling and it is the emotions that drive us. We have this feeling of, 'Oh, no, don't tell me ....please don't tell me now... that (Hunter isn't gonna get there after all this, or heaven forbid, big Max will foreever in the 'middle-zone'.

Add to this the old brigade struggling. Is MAson Wood the player he was before his shoulder injury early last year. I argue no, maybe half that player. (although let's give hime time - but how much and where?)

Short term, we've been giving a touch up, but it is not quite Stalingrad. ..yet

..it is a touchy and testy phase we are in now. Like walking on thin ice. We don't wanna drive the tanks of expectation over it, guns blazing.

 

[austinnn]

I still believe Lyon is the right coach
I haven’t shat the bed just because we have some of the dumbest, unskilled players getting an AFL game going round…

Did we just have a knack towards unintelligent unskilled draft prospects, or did we fail to develop their game intelligence and skill?

The latter is much more likely.

Whatever it is, we need a huge focus on in-game intelligence, communication and leadership - and not "Leadership" in some bullshit conceptual way, real Moments leadership on field, what to do in various situations, how to get the team on the same page, how to get out of form players out of their heads and installing winners' mentality.

Anyone who's been at this club for over 3 years has likely been infected with the insidious Mediocrity Acceptance virus that this club has very rarely been free of and should be reprogrammed. Exhibit A: Jack Steele.

If i were Bassat, I'd get Tom Hawkins and Scott Pendlebury onto Lindsey Fox's yacht and sweettalk them into a final year contract focusing on coaching apprenticeships. What the Pies trained into their team last year and what to do in different clutch situations was beyond belief, McCrae claimed Pendlebury was instrumental in the onfield application of various scenarios they'd trained for. Flash the cash and get him down with Ross.

We're changing the culture slowly, that could turbocharge it.

 

[Premium]

I thought you were the infallible Mr Positive on this board, seems like Mr Lyon has broken all that - something go on between you two in Perth?

It just killing me seeing the team go backwards , with no cohesion in whatever they do and reluctance to change.

Don't know Lyon , only from his media pressers

Long time Saints fan but this the first time I'm really getting a feeling there is something wrong - Steele has never been the same since Lyon arrived , King hardly played , Membery been cooked , and a lot of our kids just look as they are spent.

I don't know what goes on behind the scenes but I remember a interview that Seb Ross and Steele had when Lyon first got to the club - Steele was already at his All Australia playing weight and Lyon wanted him to lose more.

He is fixated on run / elite running - has this spent most of the kids and depleting them of there brilliance. --- I don't know / just speculating

Who is the head fitness coach at the club - I hope he knows what he is doing.

 

[Teflon]

I have no idea if Lyon's the right coach but I'm confident he and Bassat are on the same page with respect to the list. That page being that we've got some OK players but a glaring hole in the midfield and no immediate prospect of fixing that. So the priority for the club in the short term has to be developing younger players because I'm confident we don't get there with the older ones.

And I think we are seeing that
Yep it exposes us but he’s got no choice but to play kids

 

[austinnn]

Mitch has a weird ratio of contested to uncontested possessions. There's only been one game this year where he had more uncontested than contested - overall he's had 76 contested possessions and only 48 uncontested.

Not many non-rucks in the league have that sort of ratio. The list is:

Matt Rowell: 15.8 / 8.4 = 65% contested
Sam Berry: 6.4 / 3.6 = 64% contested
Hugo Garcia: 6.2 / 3.8 = 62% contested
Mitch Owens: 8.4 / 5.3 = 61% contested
Tom Liberatore: 14.8 / 10.5 = 59% contested
Elliot Yeo: 13.6 / 10.0 = 58% contested
Patrick Cripps: 15.0 / 12.6 = 54% contested
Tom Atkins: 8.6 / 7.4 = 54% contested
Jack Higgins: 6.7 / 6.0 = 53% contested
Izak Rankine: 9.3 / 8.6 = 52% contested
Ollie Wines: 12.8 / 11.8 = 52% contested

My interpretation of this is that he's not finding space enough, he should be having the same amount of contested ball but twice as much uncontested - making position to receive.

I definitely get the sense his understanding of the game needs a lot of work and in the midfield that's only more highlighted so maybe that's the source of their reticence?

Quite interesting that we have 3 players on that list.

Is it somewhat due to the congested style Lyon goes for?

 

[SG34]

Did we just have a knack towards unintelligent unskilled draft prospects, or did we fail to develop their game intelligence and skill?

The latter is much more likely.

Whatever it is, we need a huge focus on in-game intelligence, communication and leadership - and not "Leadership" in some bullshit conceptual way, real Moments leadership on field, what to do in various situations, how to get the team on the same page, how to get out of form players out of their heads and installing winners' mentality.

Anyone who's been at this club for over 3 years has likely been infected with the insidious Mediocrity Acceptance virus that this club has very rarely been free of and should be reprogrammed. Exhibit A: Jack Steele.

If i were Bassat, I'd get Tom Hawkins and Scott Pendlebury onto Lindsey Fox's yacht and sweettalk them into a final year contract focusing on coaching apprenticeships. What the Pies trained into their team last year and what to do in different clutch situations was beyond belief, McCrae claimed Pendlebury was instrumental in the onfield application of various scenarios they'd trained for. Flash the cash and get him down with Ross.

We're changing the culture slowly, that could turbocharge it.

You might be right about onfield leadership. From time to time I ask myself about it. Like, what actually is it? It looks to me like Brad Hill is a captain sometimes! Oddly considering. When RTB came, I put the thing to rest. I figured Jack Steele would 'inspire' rather than 'instruct', kinda like a Lenny Hayes - or what I think I remember of Lenny and I didn't watch much footy back then. During Richo and Ratts era I was exasperated by our lack of onfield focus.

One thing we can say is that the boys are having a crack, and they are disciplined now. More so than before. They are also a hell of a lot fitter. (that started in Ratts's final year, after the disasters of 2021, where we regularly flamed out midgame) So I am thinking, nup, the culture is better. We are playing with more discipline and with a percentage better than Essendon!

 

[austinnn]

It just killing me seeing the team go backwards , with no cohesion in whatever they do and reluctance to change.

Don't know Lyon , only from his media pressers

Long time Saints fan but this the first time I'm really getting a feeling there is something wrong - Steele has never been the same since Lyon arrived , King hardly played , Membery been cooked , and a lot of our kids just look as they are spent.

I don't know what goes on behind the scenes but I remember a interview that Seb Ross and Steele had when Lyon first got to the club - Steele was already at his All Australia playing weight and Lyon wanted him to lose more.

He is fixated on run / elite running - has this spent most of the kids and depleting them of there brilliance. --- I don't know / just speculating

Who is the head fitness coach at the club - I hope he knows what he is doing.

Just a joke about Perth, dont worry!

You say you're a long-time Saints fan, but this is the FIRST TIME you're really getting a feeling there is something wrong?? How did you feel during the final years of the Richardson and Ratten reigns? Not to mention the rest of our history?

This is the first time in a long time I feel that professionals are in charge.

Who knows who's right and who cares, but for both our sakes, I hope I am.

EDIT: what I forgot to add is that there are a lot of negative takes on RTB and his culture n the main board as well as here, but most of them seem to be a touch too emotive, like the various posters are finding any reason to justify their long-held anti-Lyon agenda and right now they are lucky that there are many reasons available. But it doesn't seem very clear-headed.

 

[Teflon]

Lyon will better get his finger out then because the current game plan is not working and it just could be because he hasn't got the players to do , so adjust the game to suit the players he has.
Try something - anything / play King as CHF to get him into the game , stop playing Seb Ross in the midfield , playing the kids is well and good but they are not ready - hate to say it but I'd rather a Jones than Garcia at this stage or even Byrnes instead of Hastie.

You can’t put lipstick on a pig
Battle forward, Sinclair to mid, Owens went in there - this year weve seen Battle mid, Garcia in there , Stocker , Pou, Hayes forward ….i mean yeah maybe try King upfield but really ? Try something???

 

[Teflon]

Did we just have a knack towards unintelligent unskilled draft prospects, or did we fail to develop their game intelligence and skill?

The latter is much more likely.

Whatever it is, we need a huge focus on in-game intelligence, communication and leadership - and not "Leadership" in some bullshit conceptual way, real Moments leadership on field, what to do in various situations, how to get the team on the same page, how to get out of form players out of their heads and installing winners' mentality.

Anyone who's been at this club for over 3 years has likely been infected with the insidious Mediocrity Acceptance virus that this club has very rarely been free of and should be reprogrammed. Exhibit A: Jack Steele.

If i were Bassat, I'd get Tom Hawkins and Scott Pendlebury onto Lindsey Fox's yacht and sweettalk them into a final year contract focusing on coaching apprenticeships. What the Pies trained into their team last year and what to do in different clutch situations was beyond belief, McCrae claimed Pendlebury was instrumental in the onfield application of various scenarios they'd trained for. Flash the cash and get him down with Ross.

We're changing the culture slowly, that could turbocharge it.

Agree but let’s be honest
Comparing Pendlebury to Steele or Hawkins to Seb Ross is chalk n cheese …

 

[Premium]

Just a joke about Perth, dont worry!

You say you're a long-time Saints fan, but this is the FIRST TIME you're really getting a feeling there is something wrong?? How did you feel during the final years of the Richardson and Ratten reigns? Not to mention the rest of our history?

This is the first time in a long time I feel that professionals are in charge.

Who knows who's right and who cares, but for both our sakes, I hope I am.

Richardson wasn't much of a coach but he didn't have a list , Ratten got to change out the list but never got the chance to develop the players he had under him.
Lyon was brought in to make the tough decisions well and good but his game plan looks dated and losing to the Hawks showed him up big time imo - No Sicily and Lewis

Hope he can help us to where we want to go , but atm it doesn't look that way
Will he get the sack if he doesn't win more than 7 games

 

[Premium]

You can’t put lipstick on a pig
Battle forward, Sinclair to mid, Owens went in there - this year weve seen Battle mid, Garcia in there , Stocker , Pou, Hayes forward ….i mean yeah maybe try King upfield but really ? Try something???

Sinclair is All Australian halfback - thats his best position , Owens is our best contested player play him in the middle , play King at CHF - there are many things you can do -- but yeah keep Seb Ross in the guts.

so you are saying he is doing a great job -- joke

 

[Teflon]

Sinclair is All Australian halfback - thats his best position , Owens is our best contested player play him in the middle , play King at CHF - there are many things you can do -- but yeah keep Seb Ross in the guts.

so you are saying he is doing a great job -- joke

I’m saying he’s tried things - to suggest he’s not is horse shyte
Owens ain’t a mid yet and didn’t play juniors there
Sinclair is there cause we have no one else ffs it ain’t hard
We have multiple years of neglect of not recruiting midfielders
We are paying that price
1.5yrs into Lyon tenure isn’t gonna fix that
But let’s sack the coach again yeah??

 

[gubby88]

Steele has lost any hurt factor he had , he is becoming a Tom Mitchell - racks up the touches but really nothing achieved - this why our midfield is s/it.
It's ok to have a solid performer like Steele but you need someone who can break play open , hopefully Windhager will develop into that player and once Lyon knows his coaching career is about to be over if he doesn't do something he might just give Owens a crack in the middle - because playing Seb Ross week after week is not cutting it.

King just needs game time , the last 2 yrs he has hardly had a clean run due to injury - but good delivery with the ball moving fast into the midfield will help.

Phillipou is in development and just needs time.

I wonder how all the Ross Lyon fans are liking his coaching at the moment or is it because he can't use the runner enough.

I think Ross is still the best candidate

As I saw earlier though, you can't beat a flush with a pair of 3s unless you're really good at bluffing.

Last year was a bluff, this year it's being read.

 

[gubby88]

Well why are they not playing Owens in the midfield then, or why not try something different and give Nas a run , Stocker , Henry any body but Seb Ross --- it's crazy we all new we had to change the midfield but they still play Ross.

Remember they sacked Ratten because thought he was not getting the best out of the list , so what the f/k is Basset saying now.

Owens has never played as a mid ever.

He was a forward and wing in juniors.

 

[gubby88]

Mitch has a weird ratio of contested to uncontested possessions. There's only been one game this year where he had more uncontested than contested - overall he's had 76 contested possessions and only 48 uncontested.

Not many non-rucks in the league have that sort of ratio. The list is:

Matt Rowell: 15.8 / 8.4 = 65% contested
Sam Berry: 6.4 / 3.6 = 64% contested
Hugo Garcia: 6.2 / 3.8 = 62% contested
Mitch Owens: 8.4 / 5.3 = 61% contested
Tom Liberatore: 14.8 / 10.5 = 59% contested
Elliot Yeo: 13.6 / 10.0 = 58% contested
Patrick Cripps: 15.0 / 12.6 = 54% contested
Tom Atkins: 8.6 / 7.4 = 54% contested
Jack Higgins: 6.7 / 6.0 = 53% contested
Izak Rankine: 9.3 / 8.6 = 52% contested
Ollie Wines: 12.8 / 11.8 = 52% contested

My interpretation of this is that he's not finding space enough, he should be having the same amount of contested ball but twice as much uncontested - making position to receive.

I definitely get the sense his understanding of the game needs a lot of work and in the midfield that's only more highlighted so maybe that's the source of their reticence?

He doesn't have the nous to rack up the pill yet. He needs to learn to hunt it, they believe it will happen, just not yet

 

[Premium]

Owens has never played as a mid ever.

He was a forward and wing in juniors.

He never played as a ruckman either , Milera never played as a halfback , time to give our best contested ball winner a game in the middle.

 

[Premium]

He doesn't have the nous to rack up the pill yet. He needs to learn to hunt it, they believe it will happen, just not yet

Sure he would give Seb Ross a run for his money

 

[gubby88]

Sure he would give Seb Ross a run for his money

Seb Ross, the 2 time bnf winner?

Cmon premo.

 

[Premium]

Seb Ross, the 2 time bnf winner?

Cmon premo.

A time comes for everyone - club champion yes

 

[austinnn]

Richardson wasn't much of a coach but he didn't have a list , Ratten got to change out the list but never got the chance to develop the players he had under him.
Lyon was brought in to make the tough decisions well and good but his game plan looks dated and losing to the Hawks showed him up big time imo - No Sicily and Lewis

Hope he can help us to where we want to go , but atm it doesn't look that way
Will he get the sack if he doesn't win more than 7 games

Richardson wasn't much of a coach but he didn't have a list , Ratten got to change out the list but never got the chance to develop the players he had under him.
Lyon was brought in to make the tough decisions well and good but his game plan looks dated and losing to the Hawks showed him up big time imo - No Sicily and Lewis

Hope he can help us to where we want to go , but atm it doesn't look that way
Will he get the sack if he doesn't win more than 7 games

In answer to your final question: of course not, and we should be boxed up like University if he is.

You're being very generous to Ratten, he had plenty of time and he is ultimately culpable for the erosion of culture and leadership under his watch, ditto Richo.

I think Lyon's game plan has been adapted to his current squad's capability, right now his remit is to set up culture and training standards, and . The double narrative is real because we are still trying to win, but if we keep losing, that will become a solo narrative - to set up a system that will be the foundation of our future. That we could still be competitive last year (The first year of the new Lyon system) was an added bonus.

The senior players have all probably realised by now they won't be around playing by the time we are strong, or even if we ever get strong. Some are happy to be part of the foundation story, others might not be, which might be affecting their output.

 

[Parkysp]

Players are played off have back early in there career to get them into the game and Clark did play well there , currently we have a star in Sinclair who needs to be playing there and Clark could easily play on the other side and let Nas have a crack on a wing or middle - they need to try something.
Bonner can play but he let's his player destroy us - Sinclair , Clark , Webster , Stocker , Paton are far better defensively.

If I was in the selection committee Seb Ross , Membery and Bonner would only be used if we had injuries - you can't keep running the crap that doesn't work.

The line up I would run with

Webster - Howard - Wilkie
Sinclair - Battle - Clark
Hill - Owens - Wood
Nas - Hayes - Henry
Higgins - King - Phillipou

Marshall / Steele / Windhager

Wilson - Stocker - Dow - Sharman

Crouch and Butler come in when fit

Reasonable team. Can't play this week of course (Higgins). As at today I'd have Bonner in though rather than Clark.

One thing though on your post previous to this one you give a solid block of thought on RTB playing Max at CHF but you then name him at FF in your team.
I know it's just on "paper" but that stood out as counter to your current anti coaching posts...