USA 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

[swingdog]

Think before you post.

1. Russia's invasion of Ukraine is bad, but it is not a genocide. In particular, it does not involve the targeting of civilians to anywhere near the same extent.[/I]

You should go tell the people of Bucha that.

It’s a precursor of what Russia would do to the rest of Ukraine if it had the chance.

 

[Millky95]

Party A: We will fund Israel. We'll give them the hardware with which to butcher thousands. We'll stifle any attempt by the UN to hold Israel to account. We'll ignore international law, and then we'll undermine it by suggesting that it shouldn't apply to our allies. We will crack down on internal dissent against Israeli policy by encouraging the arrest of protestors. We will advocate for a definition of antisemitism which will equate any criticism of Israeli policy with the oldest hate of all. We will ignore the killing of our own citizens in order to avoid Israeli discomfort. We will publicly encourage 'restraint' while doing everything else in our power to accelerate Israeli aggression. We will support the extension of this violence into the sovereign state of Lebanon.

Party B: We will fund and actively encourage Israel.

People: Harris/Walz is a new dawn!

Everything A does, B does too but worse.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine is bad, but it is not a genocide. In particular, it does not involve the targeting of civilians to anywhere near the same extent.

You are so ignorant it hurts

Think before you post.

Please follow your own advice

Done here with this, cooker

 

[Maggie5]

And there it is.

What is is?

 

[OneGreatClub]

Think before you post.

1. Russia's invasion of Ukraine is bad, but it is not a genocide. In particular, it does not involve the targeting of civilians to anywhere near the same extent.

2. I've repeatedly pointed out that the issue is not simply about Israel's actions. It is also very much about the active US support for those actions.

Yes Russia has committed genocide and ethnic cleansing in UKRAINe. You are ignorant if you believe otherwise.

 

[Mick F]

Again, totally disingenuous because on the Israel / Iran issues, Trump is no different and possibly worse. We all hate what is happening in the Middle East, but it's not something that differentiates the candidates.

So again, that issue doesn't "move the needle" so it just looks like people justifying hidden Trump support (I include those who liked your post).

Agree. Our civic duty is to indicate the ‘preferred’ candidate to represent us in Congress. The present Congress are acting in accordance with the wishes of the American people - deplorables they may be, but it is their country.

Of course the candidates are second rate. Our best and brightest have excellent jobs, that allow them to spend time with loved ones - a balanced life leading to self fulfilment.

In a representative democracy those elected have a duty to representative the views and concerns of the constituents - as they go about the important work of raising crops families. I don’t give a rat’s what Bush or Biden’s personal views are, it’s not pertinent.

It’s not f’n rocket science.

 

[OneGreatClub]

If there is a God/Gods then he/she/they have a lot to answer for in terms of what's happening in the world right now on their behalf.

Take a listen to this deranged fraud - in a tailor-made vinyl suit of the US flag FFS. And he's not an outlier in terms of the MAGA cult.

Is this Copeland? He is one scary dude. If any person looked like one would imagine the devil to, it is he. Those eyes. Total nutter, nasty.
As for the NAR, Lance Wallnau has much to answer for in the US and continues to try to destroy it in the name of God.
I would want nothing to do with such a vindictive God.

 

[Mick F]

Netanyahu was welcomed in the US after the ICJ findings of war crimes. This is not a normal state of affairs.

Genocide has happened on and off since Israel became a state. No, it hasn't. Even the Nakba seems to fall outside the definition. Israeli brutality isn't new, but the nature and scope of the latest violence is without precedent in the history of US-Israeli relations.

But we're focusing on US support for such violence, and this isn't always a given fact at all. I'll repeat, the US has previously intervened to halt Israeli actions. Not only has it signaled disapproval (e.g. Lebanon 1982), there are instances where it has gone further and threatened a withdrawal of US support.

What we've got here is an unprecedented level of violence and the direct support of a US government to facilitate it. This is not business as usual. A better understanding of the dynamics of US-Israeli relations would make that obvious.

I see that your main focus is a humanitarian disaster. The decisive factor for me is the campaign of relentless savagery being perpetrated against innocent people by the US and Israel. It's not something I can overlook, even if I wanted to.

And boring everyone shitless on Big Footy achieves what exactly??

 

[Gough]

Is this Copeland? He is one scary dude. If any person looked like one would imagine the devil to, it is he. Those eyes. Total nutter, nasty.
As for the NAR, Lance Wallnau has much to answer for in the US and continues to try to destroy it in the name of God.
I would want nothing to do with such a vindictive God.

Something that all the sanewashing of Trump can't hide, the number of absolute space cadets backing him should send shivers up anybody's spine.

 

[JB1975]

Attacks on civilians in the Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Child abductions in the Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Report of the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/coiukraine/A_HRC_52_62_AUV_EN.pdf

Situation in Ukraine: ICC judges issue arrest warrants against Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and Maria Alekseyevna Lvova-Belova

Today, 17 March 2023, Pre-Trial Chamber II of the International Criminal Court (“ICC” or “the Court”) issued warrants of arrest for two individuals in the context of the situation in Ukraine: Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and Ms Maria Alekseyevna Lvova-Belova. Mr Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin...

www.icc-cpi.int

1 year into the Israel-Hamas war: The grim human toll by the numbers

Monday marks 1 year of the Israel-Hamas war. Here's a look at the tragic human toll by the numbers, including deaths and injuries and the state of getting aid into Gaza.

abcnews.go.com

This report comprises an independent inquiry into whether the Russian Federation bears State responsibility for breaches of the Genocide Convention in its invasion of Ukraine

https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/English-Report.pdf

Genocide Convention - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as:



Ukraine has an army so many attacks are directed at it. Nevertheless, Russia is committing genocide, their aim is to destroy Ukrainian nationhood, identity, and language. The civilian death toll is estimated to be around 40,000 in both cases. Putin has an ICC warrant issued re deportation of children, said children are taught they are Russian and adopted by Russian families.

The number of civilian deaths in Ukraine since the beginning of 2022 is around 12,000.

The number of civilian deaths in Gaza since October last year is around 40,000. The Lancet has suggested that you can add at least 100,000 to this figure, bodies still mangled among the rubble.

It is a slaughter which has targeted civilians, in a small area where children form half the population. 600 children in Ukraine have died in nearly 3 years of war. At least 20,000 children have died in Palestine in 1 year (again doesn't include Lancet estimates).

I won't diminish the importance of Ukrainian deaths. In fact, I'll acknowledge that Russia's campaign is indeed genocidal. Nevertheless, one is not the same as the other.

------------------------

You asked me the basis of my concern with Gaza, following on from your suggestion that such concerns must be racist. I discussed US support for Israel's actions as being critical in my thinking.

Australian support has been similarly disturbing, despite its relative irrelevance.

 

[JB1975]

And boring everyone shitless on Big Footy achieves what exactly??

I was having some discussions. You can slither away and ignore it if you like.

 

[OneGreatClub]

The number of civilian deaths in Ukraine since the beginning of 2022 is around 12,000.

The number of civilian deaths in Gaza since October last year is around 40,000. The Lancet has suggested that you can add at least 100,000 to this figure, bodies still mangled among the rubble.

It is a slaughter which has targeted civilians, in a small area where children form half the population. 600 children in Ukraine have died in nearly 3 years of war. At least 20,000 children have died in Palestine in 1 year (again doesn't include Lancet estimates).

I won't diminish the importance of Ukrainian deaths. In fact, I'll acknowledge that Russia's campaign is indeed genocidal. Nevertheless, one is not the same as the other.

------------------------

You asked me the basis of my concern with Gaza, following on from your suggestion that such concerns must be racist. I discussed US support for Israel's actions as being critical in my thinking.

Australian support has been similarly disturbing, despite its relative irrelevance.

No, both are genocide, both. And if Putin wins there will be genocide on even more massive scale. I wonder who remembers Holodomor?
Oh and if Trump wins, Putin will do as he pleases with Ukraine and Ukrainians.
He also will support Israel.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Something that all the sanewashing of Trump can't hide, the number of absolute space cadets backing him should send shivers up anybody's spine.

Yeah, it's tough to be a Trumper. Imagine feeling obliged to stick up for these evangelist crazies, not to mention MTG, Bobo, The Pillow Guy, Alex Jones, Steve Bannon, Roger Stone, Sidney Powell, Alina Habba, The Demon Sperm Doctor, Laura Loomer, etc., etc.

 

[JB1975]

No, both are genocide, both. And if Putin wins there will be genocide on even more massive scale. I wonder who remembers Holodomor?

Thanks for your assurance, but the post you just responded to contained a concession that Russia's campaign constitutes a genocide.

 

[blackshadow]

Israeli genocide = bad, Ukrainian genocide doesn't count.

#amidoingitright

 

[OneGreatClub]

Thanks for your assurance, but the post you just responded to contained a concession that Russia's campaign constitutes a genocide.

You are minimimising Ukraine’s plight, that is my point.
Trump and Johnson have said they will stop aid to Ukraine if they win.
They also won’t give a stuff about Gaza.
At least support for Ukraine will continue if Harris wins.
So if genocide matters then that matters. So Harris is the better option.

 

[OneGreatClub]

Israeli genocide = bad, Ukrainian genocide doesn't count.

#amidoingitright

That’s the vibe it seems

 

[FruitTingles]

Yeah, it's tough to be a Trumper. Imagine feeling obliged to stick up for these evangelist crazies, not to mention MTG, Bobo, The Pillow Guy, Alex Jones, Steve Bannon, Roger Stone, Sidney Powell, Alina Habba, The Demon Sperm Doctor, Laura Loomer, etc., etc.

A strange one is Bill Ackman, still stuck on the Trump train. He was angry about the initial protests on campuses and DEI going to far etc.

But now he’s on the team that thinks the government creates hurricanes and tarrifs on everything is a tax on China. No wonder his fund can’t get enough money.

 

[Baldur]

The number of civilian deaths in Ukraine since the beginning of 2022 is around 12,000.

The number of civilian deaths in Gaza since October last year is around 40,000. The Lancet has suggested that you can add at least 100,000 to this figure, bodies still mangled among the rubble.

It is a slaughter which has targeted civilians, in a small area where children form half the population. 600 children in Ukraine have died in nearly 3 years of war. At least 20,000 children have died in Palestine in 1 year (again doesn't include Lancet estimates).

I won't diminish the importance of Ukrainian deaths. In fact, I'll acknowledge that Russia's campaign is indeed genocidal. Nevertheless, one is not the same as the other.

------------------------

You asked me the basis of my concern with Gaza, following on from your suggestion that such concerns must be racist. I discussed US support for Israel's actions as being critical in my thinking.

Australian support has been similarly disturbing, despite its relative irrelevance.

OK, fair enough and in the same vein I will admit my racism dig was out of line. What we have here is a fundamental disconnect in how one should act in an imperfect world.

I am willing to accept a position I am unhappy with because I see no better alternative is available. My understanding of your position is that you are unwilling to do so.

 

[JB1975]

You are minimimising Ukraine’s plight, that is my point.
Trump and Johnson have said they will stop aid to Ukraine if they win.
They also won’t give a stuff about Gaza.
At least support for Ukraine will continue if Harris wins.
So if genocide matters then that matters. So Harris is the better option.

I know that this is a crude summation, but can I tell you what this sounds like to my ears?

Gaza and Palestinians are f***ed every which way you look at it. Forget about it. Move on and think of the Ukrainians.

I've tried to acknowledge that this way of thinking is understandable to me. I don't blame anyone for sticking with Harris in the hope of a better outcome for Ukrainians (among others).

But I've also tried to point out that this is unpalatable for some people, because of the role that Biden/Harris have played in the Gazan butchery. To positively affirm such a government is beyond the pale.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Just because something is emotive doesn't mean it's hyperbolic.

The Biden administration literally welcomed a war criminal into the halls of power. I'll acknowledge that Netanyahu hasn't been tried or found guilty, but no one should overlook the fact that his actions speak for themselves at this point.

I didn't imply that the US support for Israel is 'new'. Why would I?

And yet there have been times in US-Israeli relations when the US has refused to accept the legitimacy of Israeli actions, when they've demanded that Israel 'stop'.

At this point in time we are witnessing an unprecedented level of violence against Palestinian people, a reasonably clear case of genocide, but the Biden administration doesn't have a problem with it.

On the contrary, the US has supported the slaughter at every step and in every way. It provides the bombs and it has provided the diplomatic cover. It is a genocide which belongs every bit as much to Biden as it does to Israel, because it simply wouldn't happen without American support.

I know what is 'new' and I know what is business as usual, and I'm trying to hold onto my understanding of what is unacceptable.

Edit: I'll again make the point to you. It's okay just to admit that you don't care enough about a genocide to make it a voting (or non-voting) issue).

My prediction is that very few US voting public would use the genocide as a reason to opt out of voting when there is other self interested reasons to vote on domesitc issues.

 

[JB1975]

OK, fair enough and in the same vein I will admit my racism dig was out of line. What we have here is a fundamental disconnect in how one should act in an imperfect world.

I haven't tried to change anyone's position; I've only tried to explain my own.

It's an imperfect world, and it's also a world in which two reasonable propositions can exist in tension/contradiction.

 

[JB1975]

My prediction is that very few US voting public would use the genocide as a reason to opt out of voting when there is other self interested reasons to vote on domesitc issues.

I think that polls would reflect this, in terms of order of priority.

The only real issue for Dems might be Michigan, which has the highest concentration of Muslim voters.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Yep, at same stage one does have to wonder if for some the anti Israel thing is just racism. I get that Israel is acting very badly, but making this the only issue does smell of racism.

everyone is entitled to choose a "most important issue"
though it is an odd one in that there is no differentiation between the two alternatives.
and no prospect of changing the approach of either side (Dem/ GOP)

 

[Crankyhawk]

I think that polls would reflect this, in terms of order of priority.

The only real issue for Dems might be Michigan, which has the highest concentration of Muslim voters.

though Muslims aren't a homogenous group. Some may be happy for their religious opponents to be removed... (think the attitudes that were in Northern Ireland between the extreme protestants and catholics...)

 

[Mick F]

America is rapidly going down the gurgler. Harris won't make much difference. Trump will turbocharge the decline.

If I were a Yank, I'd certainly be getting out to vote for Harris.

If not, out raising $$ for causes you care about and drafting a paper for consideration by the relevant Senate Committee. Last time I checked there were no Senators on BF.