20th AFL Team

[threenewpadlocks]

It's the whole point - you're wanting regular attendees.

Says who?

So if you are are a regular Melbourne footy fan and you want to see some footy action are you more likely to drive to Ballarat, Bendigo, Albury Wodonga or are you going to catch a plane to Busselton, hire a car and drive the 100km round trip to Bunbury ?

Sure. Doesn't pay North Melbourne's bills though if those places are offering less cash to North.

What you're saying is great for the region, great for the government but only minimally beneficial to an AFL club.

Except for the benefit of the cold hard cash going to North. That's of a benefit. Clearly North don't think it's minimal.

People go to the G.C. and what are the Suns crowds and what proportion of that from tourists?
People go to the G.C. presumeably because it's warm and sunny.

Cool. So you agree you can base a team in GC permanently because there's always going to be an element of consistency of away attendances for all home games contributing to crowds and financial stability. Nobody's suggesting a SW full time team (yet).

Have you been to the S.W. in winter ?

Probably the reason that they're buying a game in the first place is that they want to spread out the tourism more evenly throughout the year rather than just in summer. That is also of a benefit to the SW other than just additional tourism numbers.

 

[RedV3x]

Says who?

if you cannot work out the benefit of regular attendees then your hopeless.

Sure. Doesn't pay North Melbourne's bills though if those places are offering less cash to North.

Sounds like you're saying that N.M. are strapped for cash
I'm saying investigate some long term to permanent options.
.

Except for the benefit of the cold hard cash going to North. That's of a benefit. Clearly North don't think it's minimal.

I'm saying investigate some long term to permanent options.

Cool. So you agree you can base a team in GC permanently because there's always going to be an element of consistency of away attendances for all home games contributing to crowds and financial stability.

Yes, but the degree is small.

Nobody's suggesting a SW full time team (yet).

then why did you waste all that posting on the attractiveness of the S.W.?

Probably the reason that they're buying a game in the first place is that they want to spread out the tourism more evenly throughout the year rather than just in summer.

Maybe a good point. So we're banking on the ignorance of eastern Staters !

That is also of a benefit to the SW other than just additional tourism numbers.

Again NOT AFL club related but yes, an excellent deal for N.M. take it
BUT don't let that stop investigation of some long term to permanent options.
Do understand the difference ?

 

[Coolangatta]

Honestly I think North will continue to struggle if they can’t turn their on field performances around. If they want to grow their base in Melbourne, then they need to be successful.

It’s no coincidence that the biggest VIC clubs have been the most successful. I know Carlton and Essendon haven’t been for decades, but they do have a history of success that North can only dream of.

And it’s going to be hard for them. They’re competing for success against 9 other teams from the same state plus 8 soon to be 9 other interstate teams.

If they fail under Clarkson and cannot get themselves into the 8 or deep into September by the time Tassie roll around then I’d be seriously looking at a Canberra relocation.

It’d be good for the club and it leaves the door open for a 3rd Perth side to come in as the 20th club but they’re probably going to fight for dear life to stay in Melbourne. Good luck is all I can say, they’ll need it.

 

[Bjo187]

Honestly I think North will continue to struggle if they can’t turn their on field performances around. If they want to grow their base in Melbourne, then they need to be successful.

It’s no coincidence that the biggest VIC clubs have been the most successful. I know Carlton and Essendon haven’t been for decades, but they do have a history of success that North can only dream of.

And it’s going to be hard for them. They’re competing for success against 9 other teams from the same state plus 8 soon to be 9 other interstate teams.

If they fail under Clarkson and cannot get themselves into the 8 or deep into September by the time Tassie roll around then I’d be seriously looking at a Canberra relocation.

It’d be good for the club and it leaves the door open for a 3rd Perth side to come in as the 20th club but they’re probably going to fight for dear life to stay in Melbourne. Good luck is all I can say, they’ll need it.

Even in the 90s when they were arguably the team of the decade with the most marketable player in the game, they still struggled to build their fanbase. The gap between them and the bigger teams I feel has almost tripled in the past 20 years though.

 

[RedV3x]

Honestly I think North will continue to struggle if they can’t turn their on field performances around. If they want to grow their base in Melbourne, then they need to be successful.

There aren't too many teams in Melbourne it's the uneven distribution that is the problem.
That distribution came about by uneven performances on the VFL.

There are so many teams in the AFL now that teams cannot afford to be off the pace for too long
Even the "big" teams feel the pinch now.
Teams like N.M. Melbourne, St. Kilda, G.C. and GWS need consistently good performances to grow market share.

 

[RedV3x]

Even in the 90s when they were arguably the team of the decade with the most marketable player in the game, they still struggled to build their fanbase. The gap between them and the bigger teams I feel has almost tripled in the past 20 years though.

Didn't they "buy" a premiersship ?
Lots of sandgropers poached.
Maybe that's the reason why they have larger than normal support in W.A.

 

[frenchconnection]

I’m talking more about career longevity, injury management etc.

Only 6 games in the city you live in (Darwin) would be a tough grind.

Tassie is a beautiful place by the way

I’d be going for a third WA side.

Why - why not SA or one of the other States - as will be difficult to do considering Freo or WCE play at Optus every alternate week. Would need another Stadium to do that - as if members don’t get their 11 home games I would think membership would drop off as would not be viable with the cost of ticketing as it presently is!

 

[frenchconnection]

There aren't too many teams in Melbourne it's the uneven distribution that is the problem.
That distribution came about by uneven performances on the VFL.

There are so many teams in the AFL now that teams cannot afford to be off the pace for too long
Even the "big" teams feel the pinch now.
Teams like N.M. Melbourne, St. Kilda, G.C. and GWS need consistently good performances to grow market share.

That’s where the AFL made a huge mistake imo - as when the AFL was formed then it should have been a whole new competition and all teams including any of the teams who had been in the VFL at the time should have had to apply to be in the AFL competition - and if you weren’t viable financially then too bad and would have saved the AFL having to prop up some of the less financial clubs. It’s a dog breakfast as things stand as it’s half VFL and 1/2 AFL!

 

[Coolangatta]

That’s where the AFL made a huge mistake imo - as when the AFL was formed then it should have been a whole new competition and all teams including any of the teams who had been in the VFL at the time should have had to apply to be in the AFL competition - and if you weren’t viable financially then too bad and would have saved the AFL having to prop up some of the less financial clubs. It’s a dog breakfast as things stand as it’s half VFL and 1/2 AFL!

Probably should've begun as John Elliott wanted it - 6 teams VIC, 2 WA, 2 SA, 1 each NSW and QLD. 12 teams.

From there, you add TAS and ACT in the 90s - 14 teams, then Gold Coast and Western Sydney - 16 teams.

 

[RedV3x]

That’s where the AFL made a huge mistake imo - as when the AFL was formed then it should have been a whole new competition

That is indeed history but I thought the AFLW could've learned from this with non AFL aligned teams.
Or at least limited the number of Melbourne teams.
Could have pre-empted the AFL with Tasmanian and Canberran teans etc.
could have had an Irish team -Sydney Celtics.

 

[RedV3x]

Why - why not SA or one of the other States

Adelaide has much smaller population.
Sydney has it's second team.
Brisbane might not even have a stadium.
Melbourne has too many already.

as will be difficult to do considering Freo or WCE play at Optus every alternate week. Would need another Stadium to do that

No. Look at how many games are played at the MCG.
The comfortable maximum would be four teams playing alternatively using Saturday & Sunday. Then there's Friday night etc.

 

[Tackle Bag]

Why - why not SA or one of the other States - as will be difficult to do considering Freo or WCE play at Optus every alternate week. Would need another Stadium to do that - as if members don’t get their 11 home games I would think membership would drop off as would not be viable with the cost of ticketing as it presently is!

MCG and Marvel regularly host 3 games a week, at times more.
Absolutely no reason Optus stadium couldn’t host more than 1 game a week.

W.A has a larger population and a much larger economy that S.A. More opportunity for sponsors etc.

 

[Bjo187]

Survey on where the 20th team should be. The nuffies are still prevalent, but the awareness on how ridiculous an n.t team would be is starting to become a little more entrenched.

Majority of fans believe Tassie Devils' AFL entry should be delayed until new stadium is built

There’s still time to have your say in the AFL Fan Survey!

www.sen.com.au

 

[Canberra Pear]

Survey on where the 20th team should be. The nuffies are still prevalent, but the awareness on how ridiculous an n.t team would be is starting to become a little more entrenched.

Majority of fans believe Tassie Devils' AFL entry should be delayed until new stadium is built

There’s still time to have your say in the AFL Fan Survey!

www.sen.com.au

Interesting shift. Looks like more people are recognising the realities of an NT team. WA3, Canberra, SA3, and NSW3 all grew in popularity at the expense of Darwin.

Crazy that they added Alice Springs as an option. Even crazier that 3.6% of people chose it.

 

[Run n Spread]

That’s where the AFL made a huge mistake imo - as when the AFL was formed then it should have been a whole new competition and all teams including any of the teams who had been in the VFL at the time should have had to apply to be in the AFL competition - and if you weren’t viable financially then too bad and would have saved the AFL having to prop up some of the less financial clubs. It’s a dog breakfast as things stand as it’s half VFL and 1/2 AFL!

Footy is not a national sport thou. NSW most of qld are simply not interested. Thats half the population. It's not a matter of sticking a team where a population is and adopting the build it they will come philosophy. There has to be inherent demand the capacity to grow and identity.
Look at the mess of GWS for example. Or Ports ridiculous attempts to capture China. It was ridiculous putting a team in Western Sydney and hoping things would click. What with the players and coaches living in North Sydney or the beaches commuting in and pissing off at the first opportunity. Not to mention the idiotic approach of look 1.3 billion let's stick a footy team there.
Tassie will boom. The only realistic option for the 20th team is the NT. If that won't work a NT/NQ split. It's the final frontier. A truly representative comp and one with interest

 

[Canberra Pear]

The only realistic option for the 20th team is the NT.

You lost all credibility in that one sentence.

The NT is definitely not the only realistic option. It's not even the most realistic option. Canberra and a third WA team are clearly ahead in being able to sustain a team.

You shit on GWS, but they averaged 12k this year. I don't think an NT team could sustain that.

 

[Fire]

Footy is not a national sport thou. NSW most of qld are simply not interested. Thats half the population. It's not a matter of sticking a team where a population is and adopting the build it they will come philosophy. There has to be inherent demand the capacity to grow and identity.
Look at the mess of GWS for example. Or Ports ridiculous attempts to capture China. It was ridiculous putting a team in Western Sydney and hoping things would click. What with the players and coaches living in North Sydney or the beaches commuting in and pissing off at the first opportunity. Not to mention the idiotic approach of look 1.3 billion let's stick a footy team there.
Tassie will boom. The only realistic option for the 20th team is the NT. If that won't work a NT/NQ split. It's the final frontier. A truly representative comp and one with interest

Its amazing how you can be wrong in every single point you raise.
NSW and QLD are simply not interested? They both have a healthy interest and participation. AR is not the number 1 sport in town, but that does not mean there is no interest. At the top, they have some of the bigger teams in the competition. On the bottom, they have heathy grass roots that are developing regular recruits for the competition. No idea why you think they have no interest.

There has to be inherant demand to grow? Well, sorry man, but your theory has been roundly debunked. Compare numbers for Sydney before the Swans came in and now. Same thing with the lions. Same thing with the suns. The AFL does not simply dump a team into a market and hope they grow. The clubs are just the shiny towers on top of the groundwork they lay.

Look at the mess of GWS? What mess? They seem to be doing alright to me. They are in the hardest market of all, but are making inroads. What does success look like for you? And is it realistic?

Ports rediculous attempt to capture China? I am sorry, but what? They had a couple of cash grab matches, and you are comparing the outcomes of that to the AFL establishing a dedicated club in a market? Have you devoted any thought to this at all?

The only realistic option is the NT? Based on what? It seems pretty apparent that not only is it the ONLY viable option, it is in fact not even a viable option at all. Why do you think it would work? And why do you think adding NQ into the mix will do anything? You complain about GWS players travelling to western Sydney... what is someone in Townsville going to think about a bunch of Darwiners FIFOing?

You've made a whole bunch of bizarre opinions and readily apparently incorrect statements without providing anything to back it up.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Not sure if this is wishful thinking but 2032 seems like a good first draft for team 20. (Focus on players born in 2014.)

Once Tassie makes landfall, then you focus on team 20.

I'm still in the Canberra pool than others. (Nickname I haven't gotten around to yet.)

Take GWS out of the equation and have a Manuka Oval monopoly in terms of AFL games.

Just spitballing here.

 

[Run n Spread]

Its amazing how you can be wrong in every single point you raise.
NSW and QLD are simply not interested? They both have a healthy interest and participation. AR is not the number 1 sport in town, but that does not mean there is no interest. At the top, they have some of the bigger teams in the competition. On the bottom, they have heathy grass roots that are developing regular recruits for the competition. No idea why you think they have no interest.

There has to be inherant demand to grow? Well, sorry man, but your theory has been roundly debunked. Compare numbers for Sydney before the Swans came in and now. Same thing with the lions. Same thing with the suns. The AFL does not simply dump a team into a market and hope they grow. The clubs are just the shiny towers on top of the groundwork they lay.

Look at the mess of GWS? What mess? They seem to be doing alright to me. They are in the hardest market of all, but are making inroads. What does success look like for you? And is it realistic?

Ports rediculous attempt to capture China? I am sorry, but what? They had a couple of cash grab matches, and you are comparing the outcomes of that to the AFL establishing a dedicated club in a market? Have you devoted any thought to this at all?

The only realistic option is the NT? Based on what? It seems pretty apparent that not only is it the ONLY viable option, it is in fact not even a viable option at all. Why do you think it would work? And why do you think adding NQ into the mix will do anything? You complain about GWS players travelling to western Sydney... what is someone in Townsville going to think about a bunch of Darwiners FIFOing?

You've made a whole bunch of bizarre opinions and readily apparently incorrect statements without providing anything to back it up.

The competition is full as it is. 20 teams is an incredibly difficult market.
GWS draw 4000 fans at best to games. Rest are expats and travelling fans. They simply have no fans and no interest.
The suns maybe have a shot as a niche team but progress is slow.
The NT would have soul. They live and breathe footy. Any other option will just be stuck in the mire on field like Gold Coast and nowhere near being competitive. Or need a massive leg up.
The NT has the passion the hunger and a dedicated market that will only grow.
Look at any survey over the last decade. Not to mention sponsorship options and the ability to identify as the North Australian team.Majority of fans agree with me. NT is the popular opinion for team 20.
What identity would the ACT have exactly?
If your expanding into a crowded market you have to bring something to the table. Not be a middle of the road generic team like any other option would be.

 

[Run n Spread]

And I'm considered the deluded one. You lot have swallowed the AFL corporate spin and propaganda and lost sight of what built the AFL and made it such a success in the first place.

 

[Canberra Pear]

And I'm considered the deluded one.

Yes you are.

If you consider a city of 140k, thousands of kilometres from any other substantial population base, as the most viable option. Especially if you consider it as the only option.

 

[Run n Spread]

Yes you are.

If you consider a city of 140k, thousands of kilometres from any other substantial population base, as the most viable option. Especially if you consider it as the only option.

Compared to the money that has been poured into GWS who have how many millions and get 4000 fans to a game tops.
How much wasted on the stadium concessions prop ups etc when they are only in the comp because foxtel and 7 offered even more $$$ to have a 9th game.
The 140k would draw 16000 passionate fans minimum each game the 23k proposed stadium would sell out for the big games(4x the side GWS is easy already) not to mention the other supporters interest and sponsors bought in. Interest would be huge. Overheads cheap as well.

 

[Run n Spread]

Not to mention there are only so many draft concessions that can go around. 20 teams in Australia and in as cut throat a competition in the AFL means team 20 will need to be competitive instantly. Cant be stuffing around for 15 years like the gold coast or having no interest like the giants.It will need a strong identity passionate supporters and the ability to self sustain. In other words be a true footy club. Can't have another marketing experiment. It needs to be the right fit for the competition.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Compared to the money that has been poured into GWS who have how many millions and get 4000 fans to a game tops.

You know they averaged 12k this year?

How much wasted on the stadium concessions prop ups etc when they are only in the comp because foxtel and 7 offered even more $$$ to have a 9th game.
The 140k would draw 16000 passionate fans minimum each game

Now the NT never getting below 16k to a game is actually delusional.

Darwin has never hosted more than two games, and the best they've averaged when hosting two is 10k. No chance the NT averages 16k over nine or more games, let alone that being the minimum.

(4x the side GWS is easy already) not to mention the other supporters interest and sponsors bought in. Interest would be huge. Overheads cheap as well.

Overheads cheap as well?

It would easily be the most travelled team in the country. Its own scoping report said there'd be a $15m annual shortfall, meaning if the AFL covered that, they'd be 60% more expensive than the Giants.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Not to mention there are only so many draft concessions that can go around. 20 teams in Australia and in as cut throat a competition in the AFL means team 20 will need to be competitive instantly. It will need a strong identity passionate supporters and the ability to self sustain. Can't have another marketing experiment. It needs to be the right fit for the competition.

So you'd pick the place that had two draftees this year rather than none?