Player Watch #32 Samson Ryan

[Rioli2Rioli]

Although I agree that Ryan looked good in the practice games, I still don't think he should play round one.
He should only really come in if we are a tall down.
I'd still prefer either Soldo or Miller as second ruck.

Ryan is handy cover though.

Both Miller & Ryan play for me at the expense of Soldo

Soldo is useless apart from Ruck and Miller is needed in defence if harry/Charlie get off the leash
Ryan just adds so much more up foward and will really stretch the blues defence whilst also giving Nank a chop out

 

[Bojangles17]

Ruck dominance is the biggest myth in football

Melbourne had it on the weekend in spades and they only had two more inside 50s, one less clearance for the game and 7 less centre clearances even with more hitouts than them

Yep their defense was 10/10 , tall forwards tore us a new one too

 

[Bojangles17]

Both Miller & Ryan play for me at the expense of Soldo

Soldo is useless apart from Ruck and Miller is needed in defence if harry/Charlie get off the leash
Ryan just adds so much more up foward and will really stretch the blues defence whilst also giving Nank a chop out

If Ryan shows a bit makes the oppo defence think twice about just swarming lynch , I’m sure coaches will be working this thru

 

[tora tora tora]

And 50 more points.

Watch the elim against Brisbane. We didn’t capitalise on Brisbane losing their ruckman becasue Nank hit it straight to Brisbane mids. He hits our guys and we are off to the races.


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Is there no talk amongst ruck and mids?
Lost Prestia along the way who was playing as well as Neale hurt us more than them losing their ruck. Dusty was not right and Cotch wasn't great either. Sonz and Ross had good finals debuts.

Ill discipline kept them in it and the kick to their goalsquare 5to 1 our favour was nanks worst play that night. Dusty may have come into from but no Prestia was the death knell.
Million dollar man Lynch can work on his banana kicks.

A ruckman can't place a hit out into a team mates hands. Ball is in dispute while its in the air after a hit out. Pickett ran with Neale for a while, half a qtr.
Dimma don't tag.
And making a ruck captain is limiting of your ruck/KPP set ups.
I thought Miller had a good year and shame to throw himb KPD cos he'll lose his spot on Tarrant return.
Great that Ryan is having a great preseason. For him and the club.
Great that Soldo is playing well too. Lot's of options

 

[domin8]

Is there no talk amongst ruck and mids?
Lost Prestia along the way who was playing as well as Neale hurt us more than them losing their ruck. Dusty was not right and Cotch wasn't great either. Sonz and Ross had good finals debuts.

Ill discipline kept them in it and the kick to their goalsquare 5to 1 our favour was nanks worst play that night. Dusty may have come into from but no Prestia was the death knell.
Million dollar man Lynch can work on his banana kicks.

A ruckman can't place a hit out into a team mates hands. Ball is in dispute while its in the air after a hit out. Pickett ran with Neale for a while, half a qtr.
Dimma don't tag.
And making a ruck captain is limiting of your ruck/KPP set ups.
I thought Miller had a good year and shame to throw himb KPD cos he'll lose his spot on Tarrant return.
Great that Ryan is having a great preseason. For him and the club.
Great that Soldo is playing well too. Lot's of options

Agreed If the ruck is winning the tap it’s as much on the mids to be in the right spot then it is on the ruck to put it there

 

[Rayzorwire]

That’s my point, statistically we dominated the ruck

No worries mate, I assumed that, but was confused when you wrote:

Ruck dominance is the biggest myth in football

Melbourne had it on the weekend in spades

But to your other points:

Some are saying we lost the ruck duel during the game and that’s why we lost.. but like I said we won the ruck duel

All this talk about trying to increase hit outs are meaningless when the real issues right now are our back and forward lines

Even if you look at the grand final winners over the afl era none have bar a small handful have had dominant rucks in terms of hitouts
None really in the past 5 - 10 years except Melbourne

I'd argue it's really easy to make a case that Melbourne won in '21 on the back of Gawn and Jackson dominating English and a wounded Martin in the 2nd half. Didn't matter that the Dogs matched them on paper as a midfield unit, Melbourne's ruck dominance meant their gun midfield barely got their hands on the ball.

Sydney spent nearly every minute of last year's GF in the same situation - unable to get their hands on it despite an equally gun midfield on paper, because a wounded Hickey was utterly dominated getting double teamed by Stanley and Blicavs.

And of course, there's what Nank and Soldo did to Mummy, GWS weren't ever in that GF because they couldn't get hands on it.

Hit-outs give the ultimate opportunity for first hands on the ball and to enter your attacking half repeatedly from the centre, they're hugely important in deciding games.

Melbourne had statistically less hitouts and clearances, but many of theirs were better quality than ours and then better capitalised on by the next link in the chain. Those goals we got behind early in the game, those one-out opportunities Grundy got were largely down to ruck/midfield dominance. From memory we were 2-3 goals down when Nank first won a hit-out and it went straight down down Oliver's [?] throat and deep inside 50 a heartbeat later.

Translate our hit-outs to similar dominant repeat goals coming out of the middle and we become a better side who can kill off rivals or mount comebacks - just the same way we've been vulnerable to so many average opponents in close games with just Nank and a part-timer shouldering the load.

 

[Muddiemoose]

No worries mate, I assumed that, but was confused when you wrote:




But to your other points:




I'd argue it's really easy to make a case that Melbourne won in '21 on the back of Gawn and Jackson dominating English and a wounded Martin in the 2nd half. Didn't matter that the Dogs matched them on paper as a midfield unit, Melbourne's ruck dominance meant their gun midfield barely got their hands on the ball.

Sydney spent nearly every minute of last year's GF in the same situation - unable to get their hands on it despite an equally gun midfield on paper, because a wounded Hickey was utterly dominated getting double teamed by Stanley and Blicavs.

And of course, there's what Nank and Soldo did to Mummy, GWS weren't ever in that GF because they couldn't get hands on it.

Hit-outs give the ultimate opportunity for first hands on the ball and to enter your attacking half repeatedly from the centre, they're hugely important in deciding games.

Melbourne had statistically less hitouts and clearances, but many of theirs were better quality than ours and then better capitalised on by the next link in the chain. Those goals we got behind early in the game, those one-out opportunities Grundy got were largely down to ruck/midfield dominance. From memory we were 2-3 goals down when Nank first won a hit-out and it went straight down down Oliver's [?] throat and deep inside 50 a heartbeat later.

Translate our hit-outs to similar dominant repeat goals coming out of the middle and we become a better side who can kill off rivals or mount comebacks - just the same way we've been vulnerable to so many average opponents in close games with just Nank and a part-timer shouldering the load.

I see in essence what you are saying but I don’t think it translates in practice

Yes Sydney got smashed in the hitouts in the grand final but they actually won all 3 clearance stats
But they lost intercepts by over 20
Shows again that ruck dominance doesn’t translate to clearances that the cats should of won during that game but does highlight having a dominating defence will absolutely dictate the result

 

[Rayzorwire]

I see in essence what you are saying but I don’t think it translates in practice

Yes Sydney got smashed in the hitouts in the grand final but they actually won all 3 clearance stats
But they lost intercepts by over 20
Shows again that ruck dominance doesn’t translate to clearances that the cats should of won during that game but does highlight having a dominating defence will absolutely dictate the result

A hypothetical example probably illustrates the point I'm trying to get at best.

Let's say Nank has 30 hit-outs and 7 are to our 'advantage' (i.e. our player touches it first and gets a disposal away), but all of them are players receiving that 'advantage' under such pressure that none of the plays end in a scoring chain, but turnovers which rapidly end up in our defensive half, the only worth of those 'hit-outs to advantage' is that the opposition didn't get a centre square fast-break.

Meanwhile the opposition ruck has 20 hit-outs, 5 are to advantage, but 3 of those end up on a key FWD's chest 25m out (or similar) and one of the others in a deep 50 crumbing goal.

The same logic regarding 'quality V quantity' can be extended to clearances.

Who really 'won' in the above examples - the quantity, or the quality?

That's how I saw the game on Saturday. We dominated the quantity of hit-outs and that was really encouraging against their ruck division, but Melbourne used their lesser quantity with far more quality.

Going back to last year's GF, Geelong's clearances were of far higher quality because their rucks were putting the ball where they wanted it. Sydney had to fight tooth and nail for their clearances roving to the opposition ruck, they were highly contested, rushed and that ended up ultimately reflected in the intercepts you highlight.

 

[cairo tiger]

if we play soldo we are asking for trouble, has the turning angle of a mack truck. you have lumbering giants like nank and soldo. doesnt work. throw in the kid.

 

[Grrr]

First of all, it will be a different situation this season, clearly, if we want to focus on the Gawn situation. I don't need to spell out the reasons why.

Secondly, I don't subscribe, nor have I ever subscribed to the idea that it's ok to not go flat out just because it's a practice game. You play the way you train, and I certainly expect a certain level of intensity even if it is a practice match. Do I expect 100% in the practice match? No. But I still expect much better than what we saw on the weekend. And from what I saw on the weekend, Gawn and Grundy were able to work Nank over quite easily, whether that was in the ruck or around the ground contests. I don't recall a scenario where Soldo was beat by Gawn and Grundy around the ground, and I think Soldo competed quite well in the ruck against Gawn and Grundy, with a major factor that Gawn and Grundy are less likely to jump over the top of Soldo like the way they did on Nank to quite good effect.

Why would it be any different this year to any other year. Nank has been beaten by Gawn before, as Gawn has beaten every ruck at times as he is the premiere ruck in the league. Grundy is pretty good as well. But Nank has also held his own against both players, last season against Gawn in particular.

Unfortunately the players don't really subscribe to your idea that practice matches matter, Geelong getting torched on the weekend is a good example of that. The Swans never won a single practice match in about 10 years when they were at the top of their game.

Soldo had lots to prove, and he is a good strong ruck so he will go okay against other rucks, he has shown that. But Nank on game day is a far more aggressive player than he showed on the weekend. We should keep our powder dry until the real stuff starts.

 

[Bojangles17]

Looks promising. Should have played nuyen in defence

Must be injured don’t think he played

 

[Bojangles17]

if we play soldo we are asking for trouble, has the turning angle of a mack truck. you have lumbering giants like nank and soldo. doesnt work. throw in the kid.

Ryan should be viewed as a raw key forward I’m not overly interested in his ruck work for the mo, , it will help our structure no end to lessen the focus on lynch , not convinced jack will be able to achieve that , much for the coaching group to ponder , sincerely hope we re forward thinking on this

 

[Bojangles17]

Why would it be any different this year to any other year. Nank has been beaten by Gawn before, as Gawn has beaten every ruck at times as he is the premiere ruck in the league. Grundy is pretty good as well. But Nank has also held his own against both players, last season against Gawn in particular.

Unfortunately the players don't really subscribe to your idea that practice matches matter, Geelong getting torched on the weekend is a good example of that. The Swans never won a single practice match in about 10 years when they were at the top of their game.

Soldo had lots to prove, and he is a good strong ruck so he will go okay against other rucks, he has shown that. But Nank on game day is a far more aggressive player than he showed on the weekend. We should keep our powder dry until the real stuff starts.

I’m pretty sure that our coaches used the praccy for just that , miles into the legs , try a thing or two , see how melb like to play , do we stack numbers back or don’t we , do we add an extra tall to assist f50 or what happens if we don’t ,,,that’s entirely what praccy are for , playing a genuine contender provides quality feedback , much better than playing a bottom 4 prospect

 

[Grrr]

Ryan should be viewed as a raw key forward I’m not overly interested in his ruck work for the mo, , it will help our structure no end to lessen the focus on lynch , not convinced jack will be able to achieve that , much for the coaching group to ponder , sincerely hope we re forward thinking on this

His ruck work shouldn't be discounted and he rucked well in the VFL last year against some pretty decent opponents at times. With his added strength which will help his athleticism he has plenty to work with as a second ruck. He is also very competitive and very good below his knees for his height. I think Miller deserves a real crack as the forward/ruck, but Ryan isn't far behind.

 

[Spanish_Fly]

Fortunately or unfortunately, which ever way you look at it, Ryan did more in one quarter than Jack did across 2 whole practice matches. Will be interesting to see how long the match committee persist with Jack if Ryans form keeps on this trajectory.

 

[tora tora tora]

Fortunately or unfortunately, which ever way you look at it, Ryan did more in one quarter than Jack did across 2 whole practice matches. Will be interesting to see how long the match committee persist with Jack if Ryans form keeps on this trajectory.

I can't see JR being dropped. If Miller plays in the backline then KPF 3/back up ruck position opens up for at least a week.
It's a coin toss between Ryan and soldo. I don't mind Soldo at all but would be great to have a look at Ryan again.

TBH I'd be happy for Tarrant to remain out as depth after a solid debut from gibcus

 

[Jack 17]

I’m pretty sure that our coaches used the praccy for just that , miles into the legs , try a thing or two , see how melb like to play , do we stack numbers back or don’t we , do we add an extra tall to assist f50 or what happens if we don’t ,,,that’s entirely what praccy are for , playing a genuine contender provides quality feedback , much better than playing a bottom 4 prospect

I think you are right. On rewatching the game it’s clear that a number of senior players were going at only 80-90% in the first half. There was a distinct lack of serious pressure. We also didn’t closely check Gawn or Grundy but just let them run free. That won’t happen in the season proper.
I have watched training a few times and what we played is not what we trained.

 

[Spanish_Fly]

I can't see JR being dropped. If Miller plays in the backline then KPF 3/back up ruck position opens up for at least a week.
It's a coin toss between Ryan and soldo. I don't mind Soldo at all but would be great to have a look at Ryan again.

TBH I'd be happy for Tarrant to remain out as depth after a solid debut from gibcus

I dont think they will drop JR either, but JR had 1 mark for the match on Saturday, none in F50, and Ryan had 5 marks in a qtr and 4 I50. Pretty stark

 

[tiger_tough]

I dont think they will drop JR either, but JR had 1 mark for the match on Saturday, none in F50, and Ryan had 5 marks in a qtr and 4 I50. Pretty stark

When the heat had gone out of the game. Jack will be okay.

 

[tora tora tora]

I think you are right. On rewatching the game it’s clear that a number of senior players were going at only 80-90% in the first half. There was a distinct lack of serious pressure. We also didn’t closely check Gawn or Grundy but just let them run free. That won’t happen in the season proper.
I have watched training a few times and what we played is not what we trained.

Grundy kicking 3 means he Is now leading cotchin as favourite for the Coleman.

In all honesty Grundy went alright there. Equal Best ruckman over the last few years is now KPF..
Interesting from Melbourne to pick up Grundy.

 

[tora tora tora]

I dont think they will drop JR either, but JR had 1 mark for the match on Saturday, none in F50, and Ryan had 5 marks in a qtr and 4 I50. Pretty stark

I hope Ryan plays round 1.

 

[YeOldTiger]

I’m pretty sure that our coaches used the praccy for just that , miles into the legs , try a thing or two , see how melb like to play , do we stack numbers back or don’t we , do we add an extra tall to assist f50 or what happens if we don’t ,,,that’s entirely what praccy are for , playing a genuine contender provides quality feedback , much better than playing a bottom 4 prospect

Yep Dimma said pre game we're trying some new stuff.

 

[YeOldTiger]

Grundy kicking 3 means he Is now leading cotchin as favourite for the Coleman.

In all honesty Grundy went alright there. Equal Best ruckman over the last few years is now KPF..
Interesting from Melbourne to pick up Grundy.

Well they got him with Collingwood paying a third of his salary.

 

[banzai]

Both Miller & Ryan play for me at the expense of Soldo

Soldo is useless apart from Ruck and Miller is needed in defence if harry/Charlie get off the leash
Ryan just adds so much more up foward and will really stretch the blues defence whilst also giving Nank a chop out

In all seriousness what is Miller going to do if one of Charlie/Harry are firing? If he was that good that he could shut down a gun forward whos up and about early surely he would already be a lock in a key defensive role. He doesn't train as a defender anymore and he hasn't been an elite AFL defender yet at any stage.

Just play whoever is the best ruck/forward, Im not as sold on Ryan yet but signs are promising. Coming on in junk time of a practice match where both sets of players have shut down for round 1, I think people are getting carried away.

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

In all seriousness what is Miller going to do if one of Charlie/Harry are firing? If he was that good that he could shut down a gun forward whos up and about early surely he would already be a lock in a key defensive role. He doesn't train as a defender anymore and he hasn't been an elite AFL defender yet at any stage.

Just play whoever is the best ruck/forward, Im not as sold on Ryan yet but signs are promising. Coming on in junk time of a practice match where both sets of players have shut down for round 1, I think people are getting carried away.

There is a couple of questions i can ask you in response to your post

With Harry & Curnow we currently have Balta/Tarrant & Grimes as the players to play on them
there is a good chance Tarrant does not get up so lets just assume Balta to Harry & Grimes to go with Curnow

Who takes DeKoning who will most likely spend 60-70% time foward ?
Which player has the height and athleticism to go with him in the Ruck & Defence ?
Is it Soldo ?

And the backup of Miller also provides an option if 1 of their fowards goes crazy and gets a hold of our defenders