Player Watch #38 Noah Cumberland - Delisted

[Meteoric Rise]

To start, they don't just look at goal tallies to pick a team. Theres an entire gameplan and structure we they need to implement, individual performances have not meant much in Richmond for a long time. If Mansell in over Cumberland = a better structure and better overall performance, then it doesn't matter who kicks more individual goals.

Well said, and it really is that simple. "Better overall team performance" matters, and if you are the selectors, it is all that matters.

 

[Grrr]

One bloke played exclusively deep forward at VFL level in a loss, and the other bloke played a mixture of forward and back at AFL level in a win. This of course isn't the whole picture, but neither is your "contributed to 8 out of 10 goals."

Let's see if Cumbo is picked this week. He certainly had plenty of impact on the scoreboard.

I used to study cricket to within an inch of it's life for betting purposes. One question I was looking at was in ODI matches was why doesn't the highly rated Kevin Pietersen seem to make his team win when he is making piles of runs. I dug into the history of many of his innings and compared it with a player who did seem to make his team win. I concluded that a 75 from 100 balls from Ponting was often a lot more valuable in terms of winning the game than a 100 from 100 balls from Pietersen in a similar situation, even though at first glance this does not make sense. The reason was that players who batted with Ponting benefitted much more from the way he played and those who batted with Pietersen were often placed under enormous pressure by the way he played. I could explain in deeper detail but in short the error Pietersen was making was he was doing what was in Pietersen' interests and the opposition teams interests at the same time, so the opposition would let him do it. And his team-mates suffered badly, and were on a constant revolving door in and out of the team while the "great" Pietersen remained to the team's detriment. And the commentators would say time after time "thank god for Pietersen's 120 out of 220 runs today because without that England would barely have scored 100." It was a very good money maker for me to bet against Pietersen's team when he was well set.

Anyway, this may have nothing to do with what Cumberland's issues are. But a forward who helps his team-mates to function well around him is always going to be a lot more valuable than a forward who doesn't help his team-mates function well around him. I remain open minded about Cumberland, I just don't know where things are heading with him. If he kicks on and becomes a very good AFL player it won't shock me, but if he is traded this year or delisted when his contract is up after 2024 that won't shock me either. Equally he could be selected or overlooked this week without surprising me.

I have not been advocating for Cumberland to play senior footy for a good while. I have been advocating him staying in the VFL until he gets some continuity and consistency in his game. I have wanted him in the middle to show him what gut running and consistent effort was. I commented after last week's VFL game that I saw a very average piece of chasing late that was not acceptable, especially at senior level. So I am not blind to Cumberland's flaws. But I think they have been overblown.

He lost form early in the year at senior level, so by all means demote him until he worked on things. He still has things to work on, they very nearly dropped Ross for the same reason, things to work on. Yet players like Mansell who has heaps of things to work on (as a small forward) seem an automatic selection. Yes he does the team thing, but he is a safe selection.

Right now with the season on the line, do you play it safe or take a punt on a very talented player like Cumberland. Even in his last game at senior level, he took more marks and kicked more goals than the combination of Riewoldt, Ryan and Miller, yet still got dropped. He wasn't great but he was okay. We can't afford to play safe any more I think. Melbourne's tall backs will have no problem with Jack and Miller, so we will need something different. Bolton wasn't so different to Cumberland some years ago, inconsistent and didn't always do the team thing, but his positives outweighed his negatives, so he stayed in the side. It's now or never and Cumberland is in good form, it's for me a no brainer to bring him in.

But like you I would not be surprised it he misses selection.

 

[Karp3_dm]

"The entire Richmond coaching staff is soft because there is no way I am wrong about a player I only get a tiny outside view of'

Maybe just maybe, theres a reason he doesn't get played?

Oh don’t be so some sensitive honey

I wasn’t just referring to Cumberland

 

[TigerImposter]

One bloke played exclusively deep forward at VFL level in a loss, and the other bloke played a mixture of forward and back at AFL level in a win. This of course isn't the whole picture, but neither is your "contributed to 8 out of 10 goals."

Let's see if Cumbo is picked this week. He certainly had plenty of impact on the scoreboard.

I used to study cricket to within an inch of it's life for betting purposes. One question I was looking at was in ODI matches was why doesn't the highly rated Kevin Pietersen seem to make his team win when he is making piles of runs. I dug into the history of many of his innings and compared it with a player who did seem to make his team win. I concluded that a 75 from 100 balls from Ponting was often a lot more valuable in terms of winning the game than a 100 from 100 balls from Pietersen in a similar situation, even though at first glance this does not make sense. The reason was that players who batted with Ponting benefitted much more from the way he played and those who batted with Pietersen were often placed under enormous pressure by the way he played. I could explain in deeper detail but in short the error Pietersen was making was he was doing what was in Pietersen' interests and the opposition teams interests at the same time, so the opposition would let him do it. And his team-mates suffered badly, and were on a constant revolving door in and out of the team while the "great" Pietersen remained to the team's detriment. And the commentators would say time after time "thank god for Pietersen's 120 out of 220 runs today because without that England would barely have scored 100." It was a very good money maker for me to bet against Pietersen's team when he was well set.

Anyway, this may have nothing to do with what Cumberland's issues are. But a forward who helps his team-mates to function well around him is always going to be a lot more valuable than a forward who doesn't help his team-mates function well around him. I remain open minded about Cumberland, I just don't know where things are heading with him. If he kicks on and becomes a very good AFL player it won't shock me, but if he is traded this year or delisted when his contract is up after 2024 that won't shock me either. Equally he could be selected or overlooked this week without surprising me.

A lot of that has truths, but in your example Pietersen was probably one of their better players and the rest were hit and miss. A bit like Border in his early days. The thing i look at is playing your best players in their right spots. NIWL and MRJ are better footballers than Mansell, but Mansell provides more bc he's more disciplined and honest in what he's going to dish out. This weekend I would drop Mansell and play Cumberland for the last roll of the dice to see if he's disciplined and hungry to be a best 22 player.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

A lot of that has truths, but in your example Pietersen was probably one of their better players and the rest were hit and miss. A bit like Border in his early days. The thing i look at is playing your best players in their right spots. NIWL hand MRJ are better footballers than Mansell, but Mansell provides more bc he's more disciplined and honest in what he's going to dish out. This weekend I would drop Mansell and play Cumberland for the last roll of the dice to see if he's disciplined and hungry to be a best 22 player.

Viewed conventionally, by average runs and strike rate, Pietersen was England's best player in that era by a Scottish mile. But the way he compiled that strike rate and average was not often in his team's interests. When you are a fielding captain and you have a player on strike who has scored 40 off 40 balls and a new batsman at the other end, and it is first ball of the over, you want the set guy to make 1 first ball so you can put big pressure on the new bat for the last 5 balls. Pietersen would oblige to opposition captain taking the 1 to go to 41 off 41. What follows is 5 balls where the new batsman, facing a much tighter field, cannot score without risk. So often you get a 1 run over, or maybe another single off the last ball to keep the new player on strike. None of which does any damage to Pietersen's average or strike rate, but it does massive damage to his team's chances of winning, or making a high score. A player like Ponting for example would not do that by choice. He would more likely absorb balls early in the over and either look to score in 2's or 4's(much tougher to score with the relaxed field,) or often faced a series of dot balls. So his over in this situation may look like this: ..2.1 - 3 off 5 balls, new bat only needs to face one ball while getting set. Team gets 3 off the over, new batsman much more likely to get in because he is not under such pressure early. Therefore the team tends to score more, and win more.

Studying all this in detail made me realise there are lots of ways you can make yourself look good in team sports at the expense of your team's and team-mates' interests. Some sportsmen are just wired that way to put their own interests ahead of the team. Fortunately these days with greater analysis, not even cricket selectors fall for it. Richmond FC selectors certainly don't.

Anyway, hopefully this is not the case with Cumberland, or if it is, Richmond can re-program him, as I am sure the club has done successfully with certain players before now.

 

[TigerImposter]

Viewed conventionally, by average runs and strike rate, Pietersen was England's best player in that era by a Scottish mile. But the way he compiled that strike rate and average was not often in his team's interests. When you are a fielding captain and you have a player on strike who has scored 40 off 40 balls and a new batsman at the other end, and it is first ball of the over, you want the set guy to make 1 first ball so you can put big pressure on the new bat for the last 5 balls. Pietersen would oblige to opposition captain taking the 1 to go to 41 off 41. What follows is 5 balls where the new batsman, facing a much tighter field, cannot score without risk. So often you get a 1 run over, or maybe another single off the last ball to keep the new player on strike. None of which does any damage to Pietersen's average or strike rate, but it does massive damage to his team's chances of winning, or making a high score. A player like Ponting for example would not do that by choice. He would more likely absorb balls early in the over and either look to score in 2's or 4's(much tougher to score with the relaxed field,) or often faced a series of dot balls. So his over in this situation may look like this: ..2.1 - 3 off 5 balls, new bat only needs to face one ball while getting set. Team gets 3 off the over, new batsman much more likely to get in because he is not under such pressure early. Therefore the team tends to score more, and win more.

Studying all this in detail made me realise there are lots of ways you can make yourself look good in team sports at the expense of your team's and team-mates' interests. Some sportsmen are just wired that way to put their own interests ahead of the team. Fortunately these days with greater analysis, not even cricket selectors fall for it. Richmond FC selectors certainly don't.

Anyway, hopefully this is not the case with Cumberland, or if it is, Richmond can re-program him, as I am sure the club has done successfully with certain players before now.

I understood all that, but Cumberland unlike Pietersen actually has enough quality around him, but it's more his attitude. If Cumberland was ranked as a current English player he wouldn't be the Root, Stokes Wood or Woakes. He'd be a Ollie Robertson and that's why your analogy was askew.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I understood all that, but Cumberland unlike Pietersen actually has enough quality around him, but it's more his attitude. If Cumberland was ranked as a current English player he wouldn't be the Root, Stokes Wood or Woakes. He'd be a Ollie Robertson and that's why your analogy was askew.

If Pietersen had better quality team-mates it would have just meant that he caused a better quality of team-mate underperform. That was how he rolled.

Cumberland I suspect just needs to learn to play in such a way that helps his team.

 

[TigerImposter]

If Pietersen had better quality team-mates it would have just meant that he caused a better quality of team-mate underperform. That was how he rolled.

Cumberland I suspect just needs to learn to play in such a way that helps his team.

That's utter rubbish as he was clearly their best cricketer in your own admission and he did help England win an Ashes series against an almighty Australian team. Your analogy is sort of hinting that Cumberland is an A grader like Pietersen , which he isn't. What NIWL needs to learn his most important value and role he can bring to benefit the team. I agree he's been awful and at times selfish and it's probably why he's had lives already.

 

[AstuteTiger]

Going by Mini's Presser on Cumbers 2.50 secs in, he's a likely in.

"Noah's form was outstanding last week and watching the game back this week from when we last played Melbourne early in the year he was really influential in that game as well. He's put himself in the frame to be selected, for sure".

'Toughest match committee of the year' - McQualter

Andrew McQualter speaks with media ahead of the clash with Melbourne on Sunday.

www.richmondfc.com.au

 

[TiggerMan22]

"The entire Richmond coaching staff is soft because there is no way I am wrong about a player I only get a tiny outside view of'

Oh don’t be so some sensitive honey

I wasn’t just referring to Cumberland

Oh don’t be so some sensitive honey.

People can disagree with what you say, don't be so salty about it

 

[IHaveAHardWick]

Cricket is f*kin s*it, Noah is a baller. End of argument.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

That's utter rubbish as he was clearly their best cricketer in your own admission and he did help England win an Ashes series against an almighty Australian team. Your analogy is sort of hinting that Cumberland is an A grader like Pietersen , which he isn't. What NIWL needs to learn his most important value and role he can bring to benefit the team. I agree he's been awful and at times selfish and it's probably why he's had lives already.

Pietersen was front and centre in just about the 2 most humiliating performances in cricket history when England were twice humbled 5-0 in Ashes series, so this stain dwarfs any credit he is due for England beating Australia in the series in England in 2005 by literally....2 runs.

But I wasn't so much talking about test cricket as ODI cricket, where the team is on the clock and so score enhancing strategies are paramount.

I gave no view of the relative merits of the players, so you have mandraked that one out of thin air TI. I was just using Pietersen in ODI's as an example I know of where a player can have what looks on the face of it like a sensational individual record, but it did his team no good due to the way he played.

All things being equal, 6 goals and some assists out of a team score of 11 goals in a tight match looks sensational. But it is whether all things are equal of course. Much tougher us to know in footy than cricket due to the nature of the sport. But the Richmond selectors will know.

 

[TigerImposter]

Pietersen was front and centre in just about the 2 most humiliating performances in cricket history when England were twice humbled 5-0 in Ashes series, so this stain dwarfs any credit he is due for England beating Australia in the series in England in 2005 by literally....2 runs.

But I wasn't so much talking about test cricket as ODI cricket, where the team is on the clock and so score enhancing strategies are paramount.

I gave no view of the relative merits of the players, so you have mandraked that one out of thin air TI. I was just using Pietersen in ODI's as an example I know of where a player can have what looks on the face of it like a sensational individual record, but it did his team no good due to the way he played.

All things being equal, 6 goals and some assists out of a team score of 11 goals in a tight match looks sensational. But it is whether all things are equal of course. Much tougher us to know in footy than cricket due to the nature of the sport. But the Richmond selectors will know.

Still a poor comparison as Cumberland isn’t an A grader like Pietersen and is someone on the outer trying to build a career.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Still a poor comparison as Cumberland isn’t an A grader like Pietersen and is someone on the outer trying to build a career.

Ok, in future I will take care not to notice any similarities between an A grader and someone on the outer.

 

[rammbo]

I reckon it will be banks out for short.

 

[Karp3_dm]

Oh don’t be so some sensitive honey.

People can disagree with what you say, don't be so salty about it

Haha all good brother, was just having some fun

 

[Bird Man]

well all the cumbo supporters calling Dimma and Mini soft and stupid for not starting him.

Sound of right now before I start searching for receipts

 

[juss]

Needs continuity, he has a lot of almost moments and they will only start to pay off and become great plays with more development and experience at AFL level.

He has the football talent, something a lot of our "system players" from the Dimma era lack.

 

[lizard man]

Still think he’s a future gun, just needs to find that finishing touch …. He will be a good long term player

 

[crackertiger]

Seen enough. Good players Don't drop basic marks. He is no good. Trade him

 

[tora tora tora]

Seen enough. Good players Don't drop basic marks. He is no good. Trade him

He has looked lively. Unlike Bauer, Coulthard. Soldo & Nank have kept English in check, so no need for Miller back up.

 

[tunksy]

Tidy up the disposal. 7 turnovers so far

 

[mauricerioli]

Needs continuity, he has a lot of almost moments and they will only start to pay off and become great plays with more development and experience at AFL level.

He has the football talent, something a lot of our "system players" from the Dimma era lack.

Comes in off another * VFL bye and we wonder why his touch is off.

Just keep playing him ffs.

 

[Sir_Rancelot]

He is a stupid decision maker

 

[darcytiger]

Stinker