Player Watch #38 Noah Cumberland - Delisted

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Meteoric Rise said:
Yes because a pressure act wouldn't bring defensive pressure to bear on the opposition....come on TI, you are probably rusty off your lay off so we will give you a mulligan, just admit you got this one wrong. You are certainly rapid when it comes to admitting you got anything right. :tearsofjoy:
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Think about it as it’s not too difficult to work out the difference. I know you rely on stat sheets to make your arguments, but unfortunately you need to sometimes use your eyes when stats aren’t recorded. You’re just a Cumberland basher and that’s your agenda here by missing the major point of my post by trivialising his game.
 
TigerImposter said:
Watching the Pies v Dee’s game I’ve been scrutinising the Melbourne FL and on paper it looks much more superior than ours , but they lack a quality tall after JVR. JVR has kicked three goals with no real tall man support. They have some young kid rotating with Harrison Petty who’s traditionally a defender unless he plays against us and has a day out lol. With 7 min to go they’ve kicked 5:14 after their 7 goals last week. Fritsch has just kicked his first so they’re 6:14 with a junk time goal now and one to pickett earlier for his second. So these two small men are much superior than Cumberland and Mansell on careers to date , yet they’ve struggled all day with wide entries and lots of bombing . Pickett has had a few set shots wide and a long way out near the fifty with snaps also in similar positions. Fritsch has hardly been sited. Melbourne have had a truck load of entries, but bc of a one man band tall with a minor support crew their smalls are basically easily shutdown no matter how good they are . Freo and Collingwood defenders minced up their forward line easily turning it over and they both got easy goals on the defensive rebound.
Fritsch just missed again from 50 m on the siren.
So the moral of the story is that it doesn’t matter how good your small forwards are if you don’t have at least two AFL standard tall forwards then you’re going to struggle. So people criticising Cumberland really need to pull their heads in bc we’ve hardly had a decent midfield all year to even get the ball down there and when we have it was LeFau for a few weeks with Balta who struggled to impact. Last Thursday against a depleted Crows we got in by 8 points in a low scoring game with Kosi and the one armed bandit as the Talls. So Cumberland’s three goal , five possession game with a lot of defensive running and pressure was actually an excellent game. As I stated earlier his true ability cannot be measured or assessed until we can have the right forward setup as currently our forward line with talls is more closer to VFL standard.
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So reading between the lines your telling me they Need Tom Lynch
 
TigerImposter said:
Think about it as it’s not too difficult to work out the difference. I know you rely on stat sheets to make your arguments, but unfortunately you need to sometimes use your eyes when stats aren’t recorded. You’re just a Cumberland basher and that’s your agenda here by missing the major point of my post by trivialising his game.
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Your post is very touching TI, but doesn't really bring us any closer to understanding the essential difference between a Champion Data pressure act and TI's "you need to use your eyes" defensive pressure.

So if your hawk-like eyes picked up Cumberland was engaging in certain activities that qualified as TI defensive pressure but were not any of the things Champion Data records as tackles or pressure acts, ie chasing, corralling, closing, applying physical pressure, smothering, pushing, punching, kicking, pulling hair, scratching, bighting, name calling, saying chewy on ya boot, feigning picking up mud and throwing it at a player taking a set shot, pretending to be blown by the wind when manning the mark or any variant thereof, tunnelling...what exactly is it you saw Cumberland doing that constituted defensive pressure if it was none of these things?

The world eagerly awaits your revelation TI. :)
 

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Meteoric Rise said:
Your post is very touching TI, but doesn't really bring us any closer to understanding the essential difference between a Champion Data pressure act and TI's "you need to use your eyes" defensive pressure.

So if your hawk-like eyes picked up Cumberland was engaging in certain activities that qualified as TI defensive pressure but were not any of the things Champion Data records as tackles or pressure acts, ie chasing, corralling, closing, applying physical pressure, smothering, pushing, punching, kicking, pulling hair, scratching, bighting, name calling, saying chewy on ya boot, feigning picking up mud and throwing it at a player taking a set shot, pretending to be blown by the wind when manning the mark or any variant thereof, tunnelling...what exactly is it you saw Cumberland doing that constituted defensive pressure if it was none of these things?

The world eagerly awaits your revelation TI. :)
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Go and look for yourself as you need to use your eyes and learn to watch games rather than adhere to stat sheets and try and make arguments to suit your agenda for or against players.
 
TigerImposter said:
Go and look for yourself as you need to use your eyes and learn to watch games rather than adhere to stat sheets and try and make arguments to suit your agenda for or against players.
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Stats dont convey the game and the effect some players have on it, we have a player who fits that example of stat sheet vs play shit. Its really as simple as you stated TI, cumbo kept us in the game and did some great things, he does need to work on contested marking, but that will come.
 
Vassp said:
Stats dont convey the game and the effect some players have on it, we have a player who fits that example of stat sheet vs play shit. Its really as simple as you stated TI, cumbo kept us in the game and did some great things, he does need to work on contested marking, but that will come.
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His contested marking is hard to judge at the moment bc he’s playing on guys taller and with a bigger reach. That’s the beauty he was adding that pressure just by being present . He has had his pants pulled down in this area recently, but I think pretty well most players would have.
 
Meteoric Rise said:
Sounds suspiciously like you are making it up TI. ;)
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Ill play ball MR, you pitched, ill pitch..

I seem to remember not too long ago when L Neale was being compared to Dusty.
We all said no way, Neale gets 45 possesions and doesnt have the effect that Dusty does.

Hmmm seems to me it's selective Stat mongering on a major scale.
 
Meteoric Rise said:
Yes because a pressure act wouldn't bring defensive pressure to bear on the opposition....come on TI, you are probably rusty off your lay off so we will give you a mulligan, just admit you got this one wrong. You are certainly rapid when it comes to admitting you got anything right. :tearsofjoy:
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Interesting conversation. You say pressure acts correlate highly with defensive pressure, correct?

I had a look at Richmond players’ pressure acts for 2024 on this website:

https://www.wheeloratings.com/afl_stats.html?year=2024

Apparently, Sonsie is top six in pressure acts with 17.1 per game. Shai Bolton, as one way running as they come, averages 13 per game, more than McIntosh with 11.8. And Martin, who nowdays doesn’t run in any direction at all, averages 10 acts per game.

So, Martin applies almost as much defensive pressure-according to you-as McIntoch and Bolton is actually a better defender than Kamdyn. And Sonsie is one of the best pressure performers/defenders in the list as well.

Please, explain...
 
mauricerioli said:
This.

If you’re at the game it’s a lot easier to see.
I watched him closely at the Gabba and this is exactly what he was doing.

There’s some valid criticism about Cumberland like most players, but his haters are so desperate for him to fail they’re inventing absolute nonsense about him.
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You’re talking bullshit. I think Cumbo is an inconsistent air-headed moron of a footballer. A spud. However, being desperate for him to fail is absurd. Nothing would delight us so called Cumbo haters more than for him to turn out half as good as you Cumbo fan boys make him out to be.
Stop calling us haters because we don’t support your opinion. We want any player who wears the yellow and black to succeed but just don’t think he’s the quality to do so.
 

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Trahanas22 said:
Interesting conversation. You say pressure acts correlate highly with defensive pressure, correct?

I had a look at Richmond players’ pressure acts for 2024 on this website:

https://www.wheeloratings.com/afl_stats.html?year=2024

Apparently, Sonsie is top six in pressure acts with 17.1 per game. Shai Bolton, as one way running as they come, averages 13 per game, more than McIntosh with 11.8. And Martin, who nowdays doesn’t run in any direction at all, averages 10 acts per game.

So, Martin applies almost as much defensive pressure-according to you-as McIntoch and Bolton is actually a better defender than Kamdyn. And Sonsie is one of the best pressure performers/defenders in the list as well.

Please, explain...
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McIntosh is easily explained. He fat wings it a lot so is out of the play. Champion Data pressure acts don't extend to what you might call sacrificial running to occupy certain potential easy outlet positions for the opposition. If they recorded this type of thing they might call these dissuasive acts rather than pressure acts. Dissuasive acts are unchartered terrain for footy fans, thus players like McIntosh who specialise in dissuasive acts are fan villains.

Sonsie is top 6 for pressure acts because he does the 6th most pressure acts in the football team. He apologises for not conforming to your misconception that he does not apply pressure. Bolton has 13 pressure acts per game because he is central to quite a lot of centre bounce and stoppage activity. And you will notice if you watch that when an opponent gets the ball in his proximity or is attempting to take possession, Bolton will try to stop them taking possession or disposing of the ball effectively. Pretty much like all AFL footballers. Ditto for Dusty.

You seem to be confusing whether you think a player is naturally inclined to defence with how many pressure acts he applies.

Cumberland has supplied a good amount of pressure acts in certain games this season. 24 against the Bombers, 16 against the Cats. He scored 1 goal in those 2 games combined. In his other 3 matches he recorded 6, 6, & 5 pressure acts. In those 3 games combined he has 5 goals. So when he has scored well he hasn't supplied much pressure. When he has supplied pressure he hasn't scored well. TigerImposter claimed that in the most recent match Cumberland's contribution included "a lot of defensive running and pressure." 5 pressure acts is very low so I queried his claim. His response, as you no doubt read, is that Cumberland supplied "defensive pressure" and that this is different to pressure acts and that if I thought about it I should be able to work out the difference. Now I am pretty dumb but I thought about it and was none the wiser, so I gave him further opportunities to explain in greater detail exactly how Cumberland's 5 pressure act game v the Crows constituted a lot of defensive pressure. As yet, he has not enlightened me. Perhaps you can?
 
Vassp said:
Ill play ball MR, you pitched, ill pitch..

I seem to remember not too long ago when L Neale was being compared to Dusty.
We all said no way, Neale gets 45 possesions and doesnt have the effect that Dusty does.

Hmmm seems to me it's selective Stat mongering on a major scale.
Click to expand...

So let me get this straight Vassp...because Lachie Neale had a 45 possession game against us that was not as effective as "Dusty," Cumberland's 5 pressure act game did in fact mean he applied high defensive pressure?

This is getting more and more intriguing.

Can somebody please end the suspense and explain what Cumberland did to apply high pressure other than his 5 pressure acts. This is killing me. :tearsofjoy:
 
sregit said:
You’re talking bullshit. I think Cumbo is an inconsistent air-headed moron of a footballer. A spud. However, being desperate for him to fail is absurd. Nothing would delight us so called Cumbo haters more than for him to turn out half as good as you Cumbo fan boys make him out to be.
Stop calling us haters because we don’t support your opinion. We want any player who wears the yellow and black to succeed but just don’t think he’s the quality to do so.
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Sounds strangely personal. I'll easily prove you are a hater in my next post after this one with some stats.

But for now, would you say Bolton is also inconsistent?

What about Grimes being an air head giving away stupid frees? Nank?

The difference is, Cumberland has played 23 games and cops it for being an inconsistent air head of a moron. In a game after his uncle died.

Grimes and Bolton have played about 380 games between them and overall but are broadly considered to be good blokes.
 
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Cumberland is the harshest judged player with under 25 games in our clubs history. Yes you are haters. And irrational.

Compare Shai Bolton (considered a prodigy) to Cumberland (ridiculed and hated) average game stats after just 3 season in the seniors. Cumberland is either ahead of Bolton or just behind on the metrics. And Bolton played in premiership years surrounded by quality.

Average goals
Cumberland 1.43 (23 games)
Bolton 0.67 (28 games).

Average Contested marks
Cumberland 0.43 (Considered lazy)
Bolton 0.31

Ave Frees Against
Cumberland 0.91 (considered ill disciplined)
Bolton 0.91

Goal Assists
Cumberland 0.58 (Considered selfish)
Bolton 0.71

Average 1%ers
Cumberland 0.74 (Considered lazy)
Bolton 0.98

Average Contested possessions
Cumberland 4.26
Bolton 5.32

Ave Tackles
Cumberland 2.17 (considered lacking defensive pressure)
Bolton 2.97
 
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sregit said:
You’re talking bullshit. I think Cumbo is an inconsistent air-headed moron of a footballer. A spud. However, being desperate for him to fail is absurd. Nothing would delight us so called Cumbo haters more than for him to turn out half as good as you Cumbo fan boys make him out to be.
Stop calling us haters because we don’t support your opinion. We want any player who wears the yellow and black to succeed but just don’t think he’s the quality to do so.
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Stop calling pro Cumbo posters fan boys which is pretty condescending.
 
Conclusion - you haters still have time to fall on your swords before you are likely made terrible fools of.

Your looking at him through your lens of hating his personality to judge his football output.

If Cumberland is given 50 games in the seniors to continue to develop he will most likely make you all look terribly silly. As he is obviously already starting to.
 
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Remember when Cumberland kicked 5 goals against 3rd placed Brisbane in round 20, 2022 to win the game off his own boot? It was his fifth game of afl footy.

We won by 7 points.

If he didn't play, we wouldn't have won and we wouldn't have made finals.

And he was again the difference vs Adelaide last week.

A match winner who has only played 23 games and is improving holistically as a player.
 
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TigerImposter said:
TigerImposter said:
So the moral of the story is that it doesn’t matter how good your small forwards are if you don’t have at least two AFL standard tall forwards then you’re going to struggle.
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So how did we go in 2017 when Jack was our sole tall forward? Even 2018 until gastro killed us before the PF?
You 100% do NOT need 2 tall forwards, Pies did it with basically only Mihocek last year too able to contribute
Two are certainly handy, but not essential imo
 
tigerfan1961 said:
So how did we go in 2017 when Jack was our sole tall forward? Even 2018 until gastro killed us before the PF?
You 100% do NOT need 2 tall forwards, Pies did it with basically only Mihocek last year too able to contribute
Two are certainly handy, but not essential imo
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Jack wasn’t really our sole tall forward. We had Caddy and Townsend who were both strong men and very good aerially. We had a team with about 8 guns who constantly gave us enough opportunities and the team was very quick and every player bought into the high pressure game plan. You’re comparing apples to bananas as our current side is way too slow with no where near the depth.
 
Jesus.

Cumberland is trying to add pressure to his game to become a genuine AFL class footballer. We applaud him for that. His last 2 performances are reasonable, and that is a big improvement on his previous 9 which were absolutely shocking on the whole. So we should be encouraged by that improvement. But 2022 is not coming again for Cumberland. It was an anomaly created by him running offside at every chance, it worked for him in terms of kicking goals and he got on a roll. It has rightly been made abundantly clear to him that he must perform to what the team needs him to do or he won't get a game. If he starts producing high pressure games with decent scoreboard impact regularly, then he will have turned the corner. He is trying to play like a Tom Papley or Charlie Cameron. The trouble is:

- Papley has a career average 14.2 disposals, 13 pressure acts, 6 contested possessions, 2.5 tackles, 2.4 goals + assists.

- Cameron 11.4 disposals, 13 pressure acts, 3 tackles, 5 contested possessions, 2.5 goals + assists.

- Cumberland 8.5 disposals, 11 pressure acts, 4 contested possessions, 2.2 tackles and 2.0 goals + assists.

Cumberland is a discount version not only on the scoreboard, but in every aspect of the game offensively and defensively. And this is including Cumberland's once in a lifetime purple patch in 2022 making up around 40% of his career.

Hopefully the guy keeps his mind on the job, he needs to, or he won't be on the list next season. He is 23 now, 5th year on the list and there is no tomorrow for him, no appeal to having not played enough games. He is in his prime right now. Hopefully he sticks to the task and keeps improving but that is what he will need to do.
 
Meteoric Rise said:
Jesus.

Cumberland is trying to add pressure to his game to become a genuine AFL class footballer. We applaud him for that. His last 2 performances are reasonable, and that is a big improvement on his previous 9 which were absolutely shocking on the whole. So we should be encouraged by that improvement. But 2022 is not coming again for Cumberland. It was an anomaly created by him running offside at every chance, it worked for him in terms of kicking goals and he got on a roll. It has rightly been made abundantly clear to him that he must perform to what the team needs him to do or he won't get a game. If he starts producing high pressure games with decent scoreboard impact regularly, then he will have turned the corner. He is trying to play like a Tom Papley or Charlie Cameron. The trouble is:

- Papley has a career average 14.2 disposals, 13 pressure acts, 6 contested possessions, 2.5 tackles, 2.4 goals + assists.

- Cameron 11.4 disposals, 13 pressure acts, 3 tackles, 5 contested possessions, 2.5 goals + assists.

- Cumberland 8.5 disposals, 11 pressure acts, 4 contested possessions, 2.2 tackles and 2.0 goals + assists.

Cumberland is a discount version not only on the scoreboard, but in every aspect of the game offensively and defensively. And this is including Cumberland's once in a lifetime purple patch in 2022 making up around 40% of his career.

Hopefully the guy keeps his mind on the job, he needs to, or he won't be on the list next season. He is 23 now, 5th year on the list and there is no tomorrow for him, no appeal to having not played enough games. He is in his prime right now. Hopefully he sticks to the task and keeps improving but that is what he will need to do.
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If you’re going to compare a player you put up a list of all the players in his position as a comparison and leveller. Not just two of the best in the game who are in top teams and have had longer careers. Again it’s you abusing stats to carry your hate agenda on a player.
I’m a fence sitter with him, but he gets credit and my love if he plays a serviceable game and beyond. That’s how all true Tiger supporters should be if a player turns the corner and is showing improvement, rather than misusing stats to still kick him. I think you need to go do something constructive elsewhere rather than carrying on in here downgrading Cumberland after playing a game that had he been absent we would’ve lost. There were genuine passengers we carried Thursday night and I haven’t seen your critique of their games with stats to this stage which tells me you’re definitely a Cumberland pitch forker. Your comparison is so biased and out of whack bc you’re basically saying he’s not up with the best so he’s not up to standard, which then means every other similar player below their stats is not up to standard. 😜
It would be as useless as putting up Ryan’s stats against Gawn and Grundy’s. Had you put stats of all three players after the same number of games it may have slightly disguised your agenda. 😝
 
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Player Watch #38 Noah Cumberland - Delisted

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