Play Nice 47th President of the United States: Donald Trump - Part 20: If you want Capitalism, you got it

[Gethelred]

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USA - 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

Continued from Part 1 - https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2024-us-presidential-election-trump-vs-harris.1383317/

www.bigfooty.com

USA - Kamala Harris Concedes. God Help America

www.bigfooty.com

< - Trump 19 is back there.

 

[bzparkes]

Individual taxpayer identification number (ITIN) | Internal Revenue Service

An ITIN is a 9-digit number the IRS issues if you need a U.S. taxpayer identification number for federal tax purposes, but you aren’t eligible for a Social Security number (SSN). Find if you need one and how to apply.

www.irs.gov

Thanks for that.

Ok, so an ITIN can be obtained by an illegal worker, who can also use it to obtain a driver's licence.

Is this not even more concerning?

It's basically saying the government itself sanctions illegal workers because they can pay them pittance and boot them from the country whenever they feel like it.

So essentially, on this issue alone, is Trump attempting to end, what appears to be some kind of form of indentured servitude in the USA, a bad thing? Because it seems everyone else is fine with these people being taken advantage of for slightly cheaper groceries, construction, etc.

I'm not sure defending the right to abuse an underpaid underclass is a hill I'd personally want to die on.

 

[bzparkes]

What source would you consider definitive? Does it have to be Fox News approved?

Just as a little educational piece, .org sites are trustworthy enough to be used in academic theses/essays etc. A dot org is usually a registered organisation that is a non-profit, that is designed to provide some sort of information relative to their purpose as a website.

If you don't trust a dot org site, there's nothing you'll trust, unless it confirms your implicit bias to your own logic.

A dot org relies on donations.

Where do you think the donations come from?

 

[Financialpanther]

So you dont need a social security number after all to pay tax

Correct, the immigrants who pay tax are also largely unable to access most of the tax credits available to US citizens too.

 

[Financialpanther]

I'm not sure defending the right to abuse an underpaid underclass is a hill I'd personally want to die on.

The US was built on it.

 

[bzparkes]

The US was built on it.

It sure was, but it shouldn't still be

Any country porpurting to be 'first world's shouldn't rely on an underclass of illegal immigrants do prop up their labour industry.

 

[bzparkes]

Correct, the immigrants who pay tax are also largely unable to access most of the tax credits available to US citizens too.

Gee, they really take them for a ride in that case...

 

[ShadowCat]

A dot org relies on donations.

Where do you think the donations come from?

You can't be serious. You think there's some deep-seated conspiracy...by a registered organisation...to what? Concoct some elaborate lie that illegal immigrants are paying tax when they're not? To what end?

I love that you'd rather accept the above, than accept that you're just wrong. That's the world we live in. One where everyone thinks they're smarter than much more educated people...purely because 'it just doesn't add up.'

It's actually insanity.

 

[Financialpanther]

Gee, they really take them for a ride in that case...

Big time - you would think an immigrant worker would be afraid of doing anything that gets the attention of Uncle Sam as well.

 

[troybe]

The Almighty Dollar, Yanks real God they pray to

 

[Royces Hart]

So essentially, on this issue alone, is Trump attempting to end, what appears to be some kind of form of indentured servitude in the USA, a bad thing? Because it seems everyone else is fine with these people being taken advantage of for slightly cheaper groceries, construction, etc.

That’s not why Trump is doing it and you know that.

I seriously doubt you will find anyone here who will defend ongoing indentured servitude or exploitation. However, deporting them, possibly to a country they aren’t even from, isn’t the answer. First of all, they are in the US because what they receive is still better than their options in their native country, not that this makes it right.

A sudden change like this can only serve to negatively impact the lives of the migrants and the US citizens, that Trump repeatedly says he is going to help.

A long term strategy of enabling a living wage and access to services, while not crashing the economy, is the optimum outcome and I don’t think any “lefties” here would disagree.

 

[bzparkes]

You can't be serious. You think there's some deep-seated conspiracy...by a registered organisation...to what? Concoct some elaborate lie that illegal immigrants are paying tax when they're not? To what end?

I love that you'd rather accept the above, than accept that you're just wrong. That's the world we live in. One where everyone thinks theyre smarter than much more educated people...purely because 'it just doesn't add up.'

It's actually insanity.

What are you talking about? I just accepted that they pay taxes.

What I will say though that it's wilful ignorance to think that an organisation, especially in the USA, will be unbiased when reporting on certain social issues when they rely on funding, which will likely come from politically motivated individuals and organisations.

Their country is rife with this, from whatever political spectrum, after all.

 

[liz]

Thanks for that.

Ok, so an ITIN can be obtained by an illegal worker, who can also use it to obtain a driver's licence.

Is this not even more concerning?

It's basically saying the government itself sanctions illegal workers because they can pay them pittance and boot them from the country whenever they feel like it.

So essentially, on this issue alone, is Trump attempting to end, what appears to be some kind of form of indentured servitude in the USA, a bad thing? Because it seems everyone else is fine with these people being taken advantage of for slightly cheaper groceries, construction, etc.

I'm not sure defending the right to abuse an underpaid underclass is a hill I'd personally want to die on.

Whether or not it’s a morally sound aspect of the economy is a separate issue to Trump’s desire for a show of strength in deleting large numbers of them. Including those who have been in the US for decades, have settled lives, maybe have children or spouses who are citizens, are valued members of their communities, are not criminals, may have fled from violence or poverty in their country if birth, and who perform jobs that help keep the US economy ticking over.

Trump’s motives are hardly altruistic. They’re cruel and stoopid.

 

[bzparkes]

Big time - you would think an immigrant worker would be afraid of doing anything that gets the attention of Uncle Sam as well.

See, this is the issue for me.

It's not that they're doing the work, it's that they're essentially slaves to whatever their employer wants them to do.

I think most are rational to understand that the ones working on the farms/construction sites are likely to be law-abiding people. The ones that commit the heinous crimes aren't the type to do manual labour.

The regular people just trying to make a better life for themselves should, at the very least, go through some kind of proper assessment to be able to stay in the countrY, IMO.

 

[bzparkes]

Whether or not it’s a morally sound aspect of the economy is a separate issue to Trump’s desire for a show of strength in deleting large numbers of them. Including those who have been in the US for decades, have settled lives, maybe have children or spouses who are citizens, are valued members of their communities, are not criminals, may have fled from violence or poverty in their country if birth, and who perform jobs that help keep the US economy ticking over.

Trump’s motives are hardly altruistic. They’re cruel and stoopid.

Well, it is to a point, I'll agree on that much.

Still, it isn't up to the USA to accommodate them if they're there illegally, unless you want to pop your tinfoil hat on and blame the CIA for all the disruption in their countries that they fled from, of course

I might join you in that case...

 

[samFFC]

They're illegal immigrants, they constitutionally have no rights. You can't give them rights because then there'd be no disincentive for them to try and cross the border.

Remember, they're breaking the law as soon as they cross the border illegally, so they're now a criminal.

Now, a visa program to offer opportunities to people from outside the USA to fill all those emptied jobs, with minimum pay, worker's rights, etc is certainly a discussion worth having.

The current setup just enables them to be taken advantage of, much like the immigrant workers in the middle east.

Yes and no

Plenty of “illegal immigrants” are visa overstayers. The proportion varies, but is significant.

And you have DACA and similar legislation establishing some “rights”, or at least some decriminalisation.

 

[samFFC]

How do they pay income tax when they're illegally working?

I'm gonna need this explained to me here.

Withheld income by employers.

And then plenty in sales and other taxes

Immigrants pay taxes and housing costs, regardless of status

A popular post circulating on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, and Instagram is airing the false notion that immigrants in the U.S. without authorization aren’t burdened with taxes or other costs faced by citizens.

apnews.com

 

[Satan]

See, this is the issue for me.

It's not that they're doing the work, it's that they're essentially slaves to whatever their employer wants them to do.

I think most are rational to understand that the ones working on the farms/construction sites are likely to be law-abiding people. The ones that commit the heinous crimes aren't the type to do manual labour.

The regular people just trying to make a better life for themselves should, at the very least, go through some kind of proper assessment to be able to stay in the countrY, IMO.

Guess who employed illegals

https://www.axios.com/2019/02/08/trump-organization-illegal-immigrants

 

[samFFC]

It's basically saying the government itself sanctions illegal workers because they can pay them pittance and boot them from the country whenever they feel like it.

This is exactly it, yup.

Trump isn’t trying to do that though. It’s not targeted at dodgy businesses and illegal employment practices.
The key is where the attention is directed and how it is enforced. Targeting individuals, rather than companies.
If he wanted to stop it for moral reasons, fine and charge the companies. Huge jail terms for employers.

 

[bzparkes]

Guess who employed illegals

https://www.axios.com/2019/02/08/trump-organization-illegal-immigrants

Yep, definitely concerning

 

[bzparkes]

This is exactly it, yup.

Trump isn’t trying to do that though. It’s not targeted at dodgy businesses and illegal employment practices.
The key is where the attention is directed and how it is enforced. Targeting individuals, rather than companies.
If he wanted to stop it for moral reasons, fine and charge the companies. Huge jail terms for employers.

Well, jail term for employers should be the aim but he'd be under fire himself if he went that route.

See what happens after that actual convicted criminals are deported to please the MAGA fanbase, I guess.

 

[Financialpanther]

Well, jail term for employers should be the aim but he'd be under fire himself if he went that route.

See what happens after that actual convicted criminals are deported to please the MAGA fanbase, I guess.

They must be pleased with trying to deport military veterans as part of this process.

 

[samFFC]

See, this is the issue for me.

It's not that they're doing the work, it's that they're essentially slaves to whatever their employer wants them to do.

I think most are rational to understand that the ones working on the farms/construction sites are likely to be law-abiding people. The ones that commit the heinous crimes aren't the type to do manual labour.

The regular people just trying to make a better life for themselves should, at the very least, go through some kind of proper assessment to be able to stay in the countrY, IMO.

I agree. I don’t think they would disagree either.
The problem is that that isn’t being offered, so they remain in the shadows.

 

[ShadowCat]

What are you talking about? I just accepted that they pay taxes.

What I will say though that it's wilful ignorance to think that an organisation, especially in the USA, will be unbiased when reporting on certain social issues when they rely on funding, which will likely come from politically motivated individuals and organisations.

Their country is rife with this, from whatever political spectrum, after all.

No you disputed 3 separate verifiable articles, only accepting the L when you were provided with a 4th that was irrefutable.

You kept this going much longer than it needed to.

.org is generally not for profit as I said. It's much more trustworthy than 99% of other sources provided.

 

[samFFC]

Well, jail term for employers should be the aim but he'd be under fire himself if he went that route.

Yup. And all his donors, his colleagues in Congress etc..

 

[bzparkes]

They must be pleased with trying to deport military veterans as part of this process.

That would be totally yuck if they actually do that.

Would be on point with how the USA treats its veterans though.