Strategy Aaron Naughton - Key Defender or Key Forward?

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immortalmike said:
That best and fairest result was a long time ago and in a team that sucked arse.
He does lead. We just don't hit him up and instead wait for him to be manned up and kick it to his head.
His goal kicking is not as bad as made out. Barely worse than the league average. And his shots are usually pretty tough, again because of our poor ball use.
His forward craft has actually improved out of sight and his pressure is elite.
Absolute gun forward not helped by our poor skills and forward structure.
He could be an okay interceptor...but I'd rather a gun forward.

Trading him would be the dumbest decision in the history of football. A bit of an emotional overreaction there.
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Lot of glass half full here. I sit somewhere in between in that I actually dont know what his best position is. I think his disposal down back would be an absolute nightmare and he has been a forward for 5 years now and a lot of the issues he started off with are still there. Is that coaching or the player? Id say the answer lays somewhere in the middle.

Others are very high on him, I'm not. I just haven't seen him rip enough games apart to be able to believe in him as a No.1 Key Forward. His highlights are top shelf. The rest, well well below par IMO.

The reason I've said I am happy to trade if we refuse to play him down back is because I rarely become emotionally attached to players with the way the game has headed (Free Agency, Trading etc) Outside of Bont of course.

Not saying I'm right, it's just my opinion. I think it's a really good discussion though:thumbsu:
 
Chalky White said:
His first season he played back, missed half the season and finished 4th in best and fairest.
He doesn't lead, has no forward craft, can't kick and is costing us games basically carrying him as a forward.
My thoughts are, forget the experiment of playing him forward. Play him as an interceptor in defence. If he doesn't like it, trade him and get potentially pick 1 from West Coast.
I can't deal with his flaky goalkicking any longer. I will have a heart attack due to stress for sure.
Naughton for Reid works for me.
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Experiments don’t kick 100 goals across two seasons my dude, likely by time this year is up and he’s hit some form again he finishes with another 50.

You do realise he kicks at 6% less accurate than Jeremy Cameron? It’s really not that bad.

Massive overreaction, ‘experiment’ 😂 he’s been one of the premier key forwards in the comp over the past 2 years, literally aged 21/22. Now at 23 we should be starting to see his talent, and he’s miles ahead of where he should be.

Literally going through a lean month for the first time in 3 years, having to play in a ****ing shit team which is coached by ******s.
 

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FoochPackage said:
Lot of glass half full here. I sit somewhere in between in that I actually dont know what his best position is. I think his disposal down back would be an absolute nightmare and he has been a forward for 5 years now and a lot of the issues he started off with are still there. Is that coaching or the player? Id say the answer lays somewhere in the middle.

Others are very high on him, I'm not. I just haven't seen him rip enough games apart to be able to believe in him as a No.1 Key Forward. His highlights are top shelf. The rest, well well below par IMO.

The reason I've said I am happy to trade if we refuse to play him down back is because I rarely become emotionally attached to players with the way the game has headed (Free Agency, Trading etc) Outside of Bont of course.

Not saying I'm right, it's just my opinion. I think it's a really good discussion though:thumbsu:
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Most key forwards have barely fired a shot at 23? Don’t you think you’re expecting a bit much if youre expecting over 50 goals a year from a 21/22yo?
 
Any talk of moving him back shouldn't be based on his recent shitty kicking. Should all be about team balance and whether our defence will improve significantly and whether we can rejig our forward line in the short term with Lobb/Marra/Cody as the key figures and our mids picking up any goal kicking slack (Treloar/Bont/Caleb/Baz).
 
If he stays forward that’s fine but we’re completely wasting him as the deepest forward. There’s no room for him to run and jump, there’s no room for him to lead, other players jump for the same ball and our forward entries are disgusting. Needs to play up the ground. Lobb should be the stay at home forward.
 
doggies ftw said:
Most key forwards have barely fired a shot at 23? Don’t you think you’re expecting a bit much if youre expecting over 50 goals a year from a 21/22yo?
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So now we lumping him in with ALL key forwards? This is my point. He was talked about as a generational key forward with his marking ability. But defences it seems have figured him out to an extent. Now whether that's down to our ball movement or his lack of forward craft I'm not sure. But I dont sit here with rose colored glasses thinking that everything is fine. I would argue there is not one component of his game that is better than it was 3 years ago.
 
FoochPackage said:
So now we lumping him in with ALL key forwards? This is my point. He was talked about as a generational key forward with his marking ability. But defences it seems have figured him out to an extent. Now whether that's down to our ball movement or his lack of forward craft I'm not sure. But I dont sit here with rose colored glasses thinking that everything is fine. I would argue there is not one component of his game that is better than it was 3 years ago.
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Again, he kicked 100 goals as a 21/22yo. Defences have now all of a sudden figured him out because he’s had a quiet month?

He. Is. 23. Yo. He is going to have some periods of bad form, this is literally the first lean patch of his career..

Perspective…
 
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FoochPackage said:
So now we lumping him in with ALL key forwards? This is my point. He was talked about as a generational key forward with his marking ability. But defences it seems have figured him out to an extent. Now whether that's down to our ball movement or his lack of forward craft I'm not sure. But I dont sit here with rose colored glasses thinking that everything is fine. I would argue there is not one component of his game that is better than it was 3 years ago.
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Saying he's done better from 20-23 than the majority of other key forward ever is not lumping him with all key forwards.

However it seems you've overhyped him in your mind and are trying to compare him to that. He is what he is. One of the premier key position forwards in the league at 23. This doesn't mean he doesn't have weaknesses and it also doesn't mean he won't have lean periods. What it does mean is that when compared to the "possibly" great interceptor he could be, I'd rather take the premier forward.

You could argue that he hasn't improved but that would require a blindfold rather than those rose tinted glasses you're talking about.
 
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immortalmike said:
Saying he's done better from 20-23 than the majority of other key forward ever is not lumping him with all key forwards.

However it seems you've overhyped him in your mind and are trying to compare him to that. He is what he is. One of the premier key position forwards in the league at 23. This doesn't mean he doesn't have weaknesses and it also doesn't mean he won't have lean periods. What it does mean is that when compared to the "possibly" great interceptor he could be, I'd rather take the premier forward.

You could argue that but that would require a blindfold rather than those rose tinted glasses you're talking about.
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Yeah honestly I’m one of Naughtys biggest fans, I think he’s a gun mostly just love the way he plays. I don’t think he’s ever looked like a generational forward though, a generational forward is Buddy. I don’t think there’s currently a young generational forward getting around across the AFL. I think Naughty is definitely up there with the 23 & unders though. But even I’ll admit he’s definitely got too many flaws to likely ever be an out and out superstar, ie best in the comp, type forward.

He’s a 50 goal a year key forward whose upside is probably 60-70. I think he’ll mostly be around the 50 mark for the rest of his career, he’ll have a few 60+ years, maybe a 70+ if he really fires one year (and mainly, is accurate), probably a few in the 40s.

****ing dogs supporters 😂 what that’s all of a sudden not good enough for us when we’ve been looking for a 50 goal key forward for the past 2 decades? We’ve got one. And we want to **** him off to defence or ship him off for a high pick, unbelievable tbh. Yeah these blokes just grow on trees do they? That’s why it’s been soooooo easy for us to find gun key forwards.

It’s just the utter disrespect shown to an absolute (young) bulldogs legend for mine. This guy has carried us since the day he got to the club, he literally is asked to do it all. He’s asked to be our best marking forward, our best pressure forward, our best ground level forward. He literally busts his ass up and down the ground chasing defenders to our half back, when most key forwards in the league won’t break a sweat. He is our whole forward line, and banged up weekly as a result.

And he has one quiet month of footy and you’ve got clowns in here calling him a failed experiment and trying to **** him off to the otherside of the country ffs, get ****ed
 
Currently averaging career highs for disposals, contested possessions, goal assists and tackles and 0.05 goals per game of his average in 2021, when he kicked 47 in 25 games. He’s down on marks and uncontested possessions, but I’d say that’s a fair bit to do with how the team is playing.

His goal kicking has always been a problem. He misses far too many from relatively easy angles inside 40m. But that’s something that can be improved. His kicking on his non-preferred from difficult angles has become great.

I’d rather take a key forward that is already very good at 23 (and on track for 400-500 career goals) and might become great by the time he’s 25 or 26, than Noah Balta or Tom Barrass.
 
doggies ftw said:
Yeah honestly I’m one of Naughtys biggest fans, I think he’s a gun mostly just love the way he plays. I don’t think he’s ever looked like a generational forward though, a generational forward is Buddy. I don’t think there’s currently a young generational forward getting around across the AFL. I think Naughty is definitely up there with the 23 & unders though. But even I’ll admit he’s definitely got too many flaws to likely ever be an out and out superstar, ie best in the comp, type forward.

He’s a 50 goal a year key forward whose upside is probably 60-70. I think he’ll mostly be around the 50 mark for the rest of his career, he’ll have a few 60+ years, maybe a 70+ if he really fires one year (and mainly, is accurate), probably a few in the 40s.

******* dogs supporters 😂 what that’s all of a sudden not good enough for us when we’ve been looking for a 50 goal key forward for the past 2 decades? We’ve got one. And we want to * him off to defence or ship him off for a high pick, unbelievable tbh. Yeah these blokes just grow on trees do they? That’s why it’s been soooooo easy for us to find gun key forwards.

It’s just the utter disrespect shown to an absolute (young) bulldogs legend for mine. This guy has carried us since the day he got to the club, he literally is asked to do it all. He’s asked to be our best marking forward, our best pressure forward, our best ground level forward. He literally busts his ass up and down the ground chasing defenders to our half back, when most key forwards in the league won’t break a sweat. He is our whole forward line, and banged up weekly as a result.

And he has one quiet month of footy and you’ve got clowns in here calling him a failed experiment and trying to * him off to the otherside of the country ffs, get ****ed
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Utter disrespect is a bit rich. We are just having a discussion ? If you get so easily offended maybe this forum is not for you. I enjoy others perspective.

And lets relax on the carrying us. Bont is the only member doing any carrying around here.
 

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FoochPackage said:
Utter disrespect is a bit rich. We are just having a discussion ? If you get so easily offended maybe this forum is not for you. I enjoy others perspective.

And lets relax on the carrying us. Bont is the only member doing any carrying around here.
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Not you, but people referring to him as nothing more but a failed experiment is bullshit. Heaps of flogs saying he’s costing us games.

He’s absolutely carried our forward line, if you can’t see that I can’t help ya. We’d be deadset ****ed without him.
 
TiAn_ said:
Currently averaging career highs for disposals, contested possessions, goal assists and tackles and 0.05 goals per game of his average in 2021, when he kicked 47 in 25 games. He’s down on marks and uncontested possessions, but I’d say that’s a fair bit to do with how the team is playing.

His goal kicking has always been a problem. He misses far too many from relatively easy angles inside 40m. But that’s something that can be improved. His kicking on his non-preferred from difficult angles has become great.

I’d rather take a key forward that is already very good at 23 (and on track for 400-500 career goals) and might become great by the time he’s 25 or 26, than Noah Balta or Tom Barrass.
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The blokes a very good chance of being our club record goal kicker, 389 goals short of Johnno. That’s an avg of 43 across his next 9 seasons.

But yeah I’m sure we can find a replacement pretty easily…
 
Aaron Naughton Career Goals

2019

Top 6 - 1, 5, 3, 1, 1, 0, 4, 2, 2 (19 goals /9 games /2.11 average per game)
Mid 6 - 1, 1, 0, 1, 2 (5/5/1 av)
Btm 6 - 3, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1 (6/8/0.75 av)
Final - 2 (2/1)

32 goals - 23 Games - 1.39 goals per game average


2020 - Injury riddled season for Naughton

Top 6 - 1, 1, 2, 0 (4 goals/4 games/1 average per game)
Mid 6 - 0, 0, 0, 1 (1/4/0.25 av)
Btm 6 - 1, 6, 2 (9/3/3 av)
Final - 1 (1/1/1 av)

15 goals - 12 games - 1.25 goals per game average


2021

Top 6 - 2, 4, 1, 0, 2, 1 (10/6/1.6 av)
Mid 6 - 3, 2, 3, 5, 1, 4, 1 (19/7/2.7 av)
Btm 6 - 2, 2, 2, 2, 0, 1, 1, 1 (11/8/1.38 av)
Final - 3, 1, 2, 1 (7/4/1.75 av)

47 goals - 25 games - 1.8 goals per game average


2022

Top 6 - 4, 1, 3, 1, 2, 2, 2, 0, 3 (19/9/2.11 av)
Mid 6 - 1, 2, 4, 3 (10/4/2.5)
Btm 6 - 5, 2, 0, 4, 5, 3, 1, 3 (23/8/2.8 av)
Final - 0 (0/0/0 av)

52 goals - 22 games - 2.36 goals per game average


2023 (Based on current ladder as of now)

Top 6 - 1, 2, 1, 1 - 1.25 average
Mid 6 - 3, 1, 1, 1 - 1.50 average
Btm 6 - 3, 4, 3, 1 - 2.75 average


Career

Top 6 - 56 / 31 / 1.8 average
Mid 6 - 41 / 23 / 1.79 average
Btm 6 - 60 / 31 / 1.9 average
Final - 10 / 7 / 1.4 average


From all the stats I have seen. He averages pretty consistently across all tiers of opponents.
Most of the goals vs mid tier teams though, were teams outside of the 8.
The first half of his career, the mid tier opponents goals leaned slightly towards top 8 teams. But has drifted more towards the bottom 10 teams recently.
He has only kicked bags of goals (3 or more) vs top 6 teams only 4 times out of 26 games vs top 6 teams (finals vs top 6 included) since 2020
The above stat line is the most interesting to me. 14 times held to one or zero goals from 26 games vs top 6 teams since 2020
Last fives games vs the Cats 2, 0, 1 , 0, and 1 goals
 
_Cerberus_ said:
Aaron Naughton Career Goals

2019

Top 6 - 1, 5, 3, 1, 1, 0, 4, 2, 2 (19 goals /9 games /2.11 average per game)
Mid 6 - 1, 1, 0, 1, 2 (5/5/1 av)
Btm 6 - 3, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1 (6/8/0.75 av)
Final - 2 (2/1)

32 goals - 23 Games - 1.39 goals per game average


2020 - Injury riddled season for Naughton

Top 6 - 1, 1, 2, 0 (4 goals/4 games/1 average per game)
Mid 6 - 0, 0, 0, 1 (1/4/0.25 av)
Btm 6 - 1, 6, 2 (9/3/3 av)
Final - 1 (1/1/1 av)

15 goals - 12 games - 1.25 goals per game average


2021

Top 6 - 2, 4, 1, 0, 2, 1 (10/6/1.6 av)
Mid 6 - 3, 2, 3, 5, 1, 4, 1 (19/7/2.7 av)
Btm 6 - 2, 2, 2, 2, 0, 1, 1, 1 (11/8/1.38 av)
Final - 3, 1, 2, 1 (7/4/1.75 av)

47 goals - 25 games - 1.8 goals per game average


2022

Top 6 - 4, 1, 3, 1, 2, 2, 2, 0, 3 (19/9/2.11 av)
Mid 6 - 1, 2, 4, 3 (10/4/2.5)
Btm 6 - 5, 2, 0, 4, 5, 3, 1, 3 (23/8/2.8 av)
Final - 0 (0/0/0 av)

52 goals - 22 games - 2.36 goals per game average


2023 (Based on current ladder as of now)

Top 6 - 1, 2, 1, 1 - 1.25 average
Mid 6 - 3, 1, 1, 1 - 1.50 average
Btm 6 - 3, 4, 3, 1 - 2.75 average


Career

Top 6 - 56 / 31 / 1.8 average
Mid 6 - 41 / 23 / 1.79 average
Btm 6 - 60 / 31 / 1.9 average
Final - 10 / 7 / 1.4 average


From all the stats I have seen. He averages pretty consistently across all tiers of opponents.
Most of the goals vs mid tier teams though, were teams outside of the 8.
The first half of his career, the mid tier opponents goals leaned slightly towards top 8 teams. But has drifted more towards the bottom 10 teams recently.
He has only kicked bags of goals (3 or more) vs top 6 teams only 4 times out of 26 games vs top 6 teams (finals vs top 6 included) since 2020
The above stat line is the most interesting to me. 14 times held to one or zero goals from 26 games vs top 6 teams since 2020
Last fives games vs the Cats 2, 0, 1 , 0, and 1 goals
Click to expand...
I don’t think that’s really surprising, as a team overall we suck against top teams for the last few years. We’ve loved to beat up on crap teams but we have no answer against good sides, they match us in the middle they restrict our reliance on dominating inside 50s to win, flood our forward line and slow our ball movement.

It would be more surprising if Naughtys stats didn’t reflect the same. Not sure he can be blamed when our whole game does not stand up to the pressure of playing good sides.
 
doggies ftw said:
I don’t think that’s really surprising, as a team overall we suck against top teams for the last few years. We’ve loved to beat up on crap teams but we have no answer against good sides, they match us in the middle they restrict our reliance on dominating inside 50s to win, flood our forward line and slow our ball movement.

It would be more surprising if Naughtys stats didn’t reflect the same. Not sure he can be blamed when our whole game does not stand up to the pressure of playing good sides.
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That is a very fair and valid point. You are right that we do not stand up well vs good sides for the most part as a team, unless we have one of our hot patches. So it would be unfair to place it all on him.

I was merely pointing out, that some teams have that one forward that stands up and turns the game on their own in big games. Unfortunately we have not really got many of those across all of our lines. Bont is the only player that can turn a game right now. We know Jones, English and Libba have been consistent and had impacts. Unfortunately no one else around them to help ease the load. He is still young, and our forward line system has been poor the past couple of season in terms of structure, roles and general delivery inside 50. Hopefully if we can fix those things, we will see more impact vs good teams by our forwards.
 
Have to say I have changed. Absolute liability deep, not hitting up at the ball, kicking at goal.

Does not average 2 goals a game as a key forward.

Play Lobb, Bruce or Darcy forward or any two of them with Jamarra.

Play him at CHB and re build the backline

On SM-G996B using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
_Cerberus_ said:
That is a very fair and valid point. You are right that we do not stand up well vs good sides for the most part as a team, unless we have one of our hot patches. So it would be unfair to place it all on him.

I was merely pointing out, that some teams have that one forward that stands up and turns the game on their own in big games. Unfortunately we have not really got many of those across all of our lines. Bont is the only player that can turn a game right now. We know Jones, English and Libba have been consistent and had impacts. Unfortunately no one else around them to help ease the load. He is still young, and our forward line system has been poor the past couple of season in terms of structure, roles and general delivery inside 50. Hopefully if we can fix those things, we will see more impact vs good teams by our forwards.
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Yeah I agree, we really seem to be lacking genuine match winners at the moment. I think Marra has already shown signs of being that though, and I think Naughty, Cody & Darcy and maybe even Arty all look to have that ability in them from the young crop. So there’s potential for our young forward line, but yeah we’re just not there consistently yet.

Midfield we only have Bont & Libba but can’t keep relying on them, we really need a big bulky young mid who’s going to stand up in a close game and win bulk clearances. Teams are walking all over us in that department lately, even kids like JHF…
 
_Mike_ said:
www.foxsports.com.au

‘Not on board’: Buddy’s selfless Swans act; Surprise trade link to Dogs superstar

‘Not on board’: Buddy’s selfless Swans act; Surprise trade link to Dogs superstar
www.foxsports.com.au www.foxsports.com.au
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C'mon Ralphy! Lift son, Lift!

If you're going to build your shaky house of speculation on foundations of “at least eight clubs” making contact with Naughtons management.

Go Big Son. BIG!

Go with building the solid foundations of all 17 clubs doing the same.

Any club that doesn't make contact with Naughtons management would be derelict in their duty if they didn't.

Otherwise people might consider you some sort of hack, who pulls stories out of his arse.
 
Norm De Guerre said:
C'mon Ralphy! Lift son, Lift!

If you're going to build your shaky house of speculation on foundations of “at least eight clubs” making contact with Naughtons management.

Go Big Son. BIG!

Go with building the solid foundations of all 17 clubs doing the same.

Any club that doesn't make contact with Naughtons management would be derelict in their duty if they didn't.

Otherwise people might consider you some sort of hack, who pulls stories out of his arse.
Click to expand...

Ralphy’s digging for anything these days, credible or not
 
doggies ftw said:
Not you, but people referring to him as nothing more but a failed experiment is bullshit. Heaps of flogs saying he’s costing us games.

He’s absolutely carried our forward line, if you can’t see that I can’t help ya. We’d be deadset ****ed without him.
Click to expand...
I think he's a forward long term but I'd be ok with him going back for a period for the following mostly team driven reasons:
  1. We're definitely not winning the big one this year with Gardy and O'Brien in the backline versus only probably not winning it without Naughty forward.

  2. He might learn more "forward craft" by lining up on some other forwards than from listening to Spangher during the week. In saying that I don't think his leading patterns and forward craft are nearly as bad as some of us make out and it must be disheartening to lead up to our midfield at times.

  3. Gives an opportunity for Jamarra to play as the focal point forward. He's probably not ready but I think he'd then thrive when he gets support back, similar to how young players go back to the VFL and play well above their previous levels.

  4. Gives us an opportunity to see if Lobb can be any good as another focal point without Naughton there, or if his 1.6 goals a game average across 2021 and 2022 were just an aberration versus 0.8 per game across the rest of his career.
I'd be more inclined to replace him up forward with either West (extra small allows Cody to play as a marking option) or Buku (in-game flexibility to swap with Naughton) rather than Darcy or Bruce. I just think we'd get killed on the rebound with two of Bruce, Lobb and Darcy up forward.
 
All you guys saying Naughton is just having a bad form patch let me tell you something. It’s not form, he has a shocking goal kicking technique. He basically takes one or two steps then just drops it onto his boot hoping for the best.
 

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Strategy Aaron Naughton - Key Defender or Key Forward?

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