Strategy Aaron Naughton - Key Defender or Key Forward?

[Ash1337]

I say still persist with him up forward. He's just having a poor season. Not the only Key forward in the league having 1 and Harry Mckay

10

Harry Mckay

Age

26

Ht

200cm

Wt

106kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.9

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

2.4

2star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.4

5star

D

6.6

1star

K

4.6

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.4

2star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.8

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.4

4star

T

0.8

3star

G

2.0

5star

is having a even worse season.

 

[BIG_BONTS]

He’s been ordinary, not poor. We want him to be an A grader, he’s might only be a B but playing like a C.

 

[theburst]

I'd like to know his thoughts, deep down does he like being a Forward kicking goals influencing the scoreboard, or would like to be our no.1 class Defender, but leaves it to the coaching panel to make the call. It'd be tough pill to swallow if he ends up at e.g Freo and becomes an elite Defender.

 

[HK_Bulldog]

In one of the matches that Daisy Pearce was commentating on, Naughton took a great mark. Her comment was that everybody knows that you keep body on Naughton to stop him jumping. Interestingly, people aren’t in awe anymore when Naughton takes a hanger. The reaction is that the defender didn’t follow instructions. If Naughton only has one trick, he is easily negated. Needs to find other ways to kick a goal and keep the defenders guessing.

 

[TiAn_]

You are missing the point. I am saying at the absolute peak of their abilities, these guys probably could've been at least somewhat prolific up forward if given a chance to settle there. Anyone who was as good at marking the ball like Rance was could easily kick 40-50 goals a season- it really doesn't matter if he hadn't done so early in his career. Richmond just identified early on that his skillset was optimized for defence, not as a forward. At the end of his career, anyone with a functioning brain can see he brought FAR more value to Richmond as a defender than he could've as a forward. Even if there was a guarantee he could be a 50-60 goal forward, Richmond would've still preferred him in defence every day of the week.

Yeah, Naughton became a pretty prolific goalkicker early in his career, but for me, that's a testament to his athleticism and marking ability alone. It doesn't necessarily mean he's a better forward than he is a defender. People can have their own opinions on this but his recent form and playing habits are very reflective of a defender playing up forward, as is his consistently terrible kicking for goal.

I'm not missing the point. Your point is just a hypothetical, "I'm sure if this thing that never happened happened then this other thing that never happened would have happened". Rance was tried forward in his second season. Even though he was great in defence his first season. There's a reason for that. There's not much point discussing this if you actually think even if Richmond knew Rance could kick 60 goals a year they would still have chosen to play him defence his entire career.

Do you seriously not understand the fact that certain players develop at different rates?
Naughton was a physically ready-made player from the start and was taking contested marks against bigger men in the WAFL before getting drafted. Silly to compare him to Ugle-Hagan, who didn't get to play any football in his last U18 year.

Speaking of missing the point. Separately, development isn't just physical. Perhaps bear that in mind for this discussion about Naughton.

What? How is that "the reality"? What makes you think he can't become an Alex Rance/Darcy Moore/Easton Wood type of intercept beast? That's exactly what his best attributes were prior to being drafted: his marking and intercept game.

How is it not the reality of what defending entails? Did you actually watch what Easton Wood spent 95% of his time doing? It wasn't taking hangers. We rarely play a loose man behind the ball. He's not a medium defender, he would be our CHB. Like Jones, Gardner or O'Brien, he would be responsible for an opposition forward most of the time. Liam Jones is in All-Australian contention. You'd be getting something similar to that, although without Jones' size, experience or nous.

No one is saying he wouldn't be very good behind the ball. But there's a lot of fairlyland thinking that we can just slot him in at CHB and he'll be the best defender in the competition and fix our defence and the 50 goals and 40 odd contested marks will just reappear after we sprinkle some fairy dust on the forward line.

 

[Golden_6]

In one of the matches that Daisy Pearce was commentating on, Naughton took a great mark. Her comment was that everybody knows that you keep body on Naughton to stop him jumping. Interestingly, people aren’t in awe anymore when Naughton takes a hanger. The reaction is that the defender didn’t follow instructions. If Naughton only has one trick, he is easily negated. Needs to find other ways to kick a goal and keep the defenders guessing.

He took 80 marks inside 50 in 2021 with many of them on the lead and is nowhere near that level now. Naughton certainly wasn’t a one trick pony then. It’s hard to know what’s cause the drop off. The removal of Bruce? Forward coaching and structure? Poor form? Midfield entries? Probably a combination of all of the above.

For someone of his ability, 4.5 marks a game is very ordinary. I’d be focusing on the simple role change for now. Naughton to CHF and allowed to roam the arcs with JUH & Lobb as the deeper leading targets. I think it’s suits all 3 much better than the what we’re doing now.

 

[lachy]

I'm not missing the point. Your point is just a hypothetical, "I'm sure if this thing that never happened happened then this other thing that never happened would have happened". Rance was tried forward in his second season. Even though he was great in defence his first season. There's a reason for that. There's not much point discussing this if you actually think even if Richmond knew Rance could kick 60 goals a year they would still have chosen to play him defence his entire career.



Speaking of missing the point. Separately, development isn't just physical. Perhaps bear that in mind for this discussion about Naughton.



How is it not the reality of what defending entails? Did you actually watch what Easton Wood spent 95% of his time doing? It wasn't taking hangers. We rarely play a loose man behind the ball. He's not a medium defender, he would be our CHB. Like Jones, Gardner or O'Brien, he would be responsible for an opposition forward most of the time. Liam Jones is in All-Australian contention. You'd be getting something similar to that, although without Jones' size, experience or nous.

No one is saying he wouldn't be very good behind the ball. But there's a lot of fairlyland thinking that we can just slot him in at CHB and he'll be the best defender in the competition and fix our defence and the 50 goals and 40 odd contested marks will just reappear after we sprinkle some fairy dust on the forward line.

It would work similar to how the Dee's work with May and Lever. May takes the deep and Lever the high forward and they back themselves into mark. And who is their gun forward making them strong contenders?

In our case Jones would take the deep as he does now.

All leading contenders have at least 2 defenders comfortably in the top 50 of intercept marks.

We have 1, Jones obviously. Our next best is our ruckman. Attack comes from both midfield and off half back. We are realying on Keath, Gardiner, TOB, Bruce and a little of JOD. We don't change this backline mix we will not be winning anything soon.

And just on 2016, Morris played the deep role and Easton played the high role so was in position to take the intercept mark whilst defending his apponent.

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[immortalmike]

My favourite logical fallacy in this thread is that Naughton has been worked out but his goal kicking is wayward.

How would we know the latter if the former was true?
Wouldn't he not be generating shots?

Also if he was "worked out" by taking away his jump by keeping a body on him how did he kick 51 goals last year? Surely people aren't suggesting that it took 5 years for professional teams to work that stroke of genius out.

 

[lachy]

My favourite logical fallacy in this thread is that Naughton has been worked out but his goal kicking is wayward.

How would we know the latter if the former was true?
Wouldn't he not be generating shots?

Also if he was "worked out" by taking away his jump by keeping a body on him how did he kick 51 goals last year? Surely people aren't suggesting that it took 5 years for professional teams to work that stroke of genius out.

What makes that so great for a 'Gun' forward. 11th on the goal kicking list, 10th the year before, once kicked 6 goals, 3 times 5 goals so that is 4 times 5 goals or more as a forward.

He has exceptional talent being wasted where he is playing because of some myth he is a gun as a forward though the most fundamental measure as a.gun forward, goals particularly in key games against strong backlines the numbers simply do not stand up at all

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[LondonBulldog]

You can argue either way so I don’t know why people are so strong one way or another. What I do know is we are not top 4, yet we should be. So when things aren’t going right the coaches have a responsibility to try various options and if they don’t it’s blind stubbornness. I think it’s should at least be trailed soon.

Having said that we really need to evaluate our onball team, no point getting all those possessions yet not winning. Chipping it around not getting anywhere. Butters and Rosie so much more damaging and this is happening often against the good sides. Unfortunately that’s the type of player we were hoping Smith would become. He is a miles off playing outside non contact footy when he could be so much more.


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[immortalmike]

What makes that so great for a 'Gun' forward. 11th on the goal kicking list, 10th the year before, once kicked 6 goals, 3 times 5 goals so that is 4 times 5 goals or more as a forward.

He has exceptional talent being wasted where he is playing because of some myth he is a gun as a forward though the most fundamental measure as a.gun forward, goals particularly in key games against strong backlines the numbers simply do not stand up at all

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So 13 less than the Coleman winner....?
That doesn't include his forward pressure and ground level game. At 22 last year.

Yeah total myth.

You've lost your mind lachy and are now looking for evidence to suit your narrative. Including shifting the goal posts to goals in "key games". That's a nice bullshit phrase.

The only myth is that playing him back will result in anything bar a better than average intercept defender.

 

[immortalmike]

Also just on last year he kicked 4 against Melbourne, 4 against Port and 3 each against Fremantle and Collingwood. All top 8 teams.

But nah. He never plays well in key games. And our forwards don't struggle when teams restrict our ball use... definitely not a team wide issue. All Naughton.

I heard he was a gun inside mid in under 12s. That's his natural position. Let's move him there.

 

[lachy]

So 13 less than the Coleman winner....?
That doesn't include his forward pressure and ground level game. At 22 last year.

Yeah total myth.

You've lost your mind lachy and are now looking for evidence to suit your narrative. Including shifting the goal posts to goals in "key games". That's a nice bullshit phrase.

The only myth is that playing him back will result in anything bar a better than average intercept defender.

The only myth about playing him back is that he could not be any better than any of the other alternatives

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[lachy]

Also just on last year he kicked 4 against Melbourne, 4 against Port and 3 each against Fremantle and Collingwood. All top 8 teams.

But nah. He never plays well in key games. And our forwards don't struggle when teams restrict our ball use... definitely not a team wide issue. All Naughton.

I heard he was a gun inside mid in under 12s. That's his natural position. Let's move him there.

If this is enough to say he is a Gun forward for you, that influences big games no worries

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[DognBones]

The best short term fix could be moving Naughton to CHF and Bruce to FF. Naughton would have more space to run into rather than being negated standing under high balls at FF. Bruce, despite his obvious ageing, at least better understands the position. We still have JUH and Lobb to be forward targets.

 

[lachy]

The best short term fix could be moving Naughton to CHF and Bruce to FF. Naughton would have more space to run into rather than being negated standing under high balls at FF. Bruce, despite his obvious ageing, at least better understands the position. We still have JUH and Lobb to be forward targets.

Certainly worth a try as the current forward structure has not worked for some time.

Part is the delivery, they other part is movement, leading patters, working together.

All good teams have multiple options with smalls and mids also providing options

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[TiAn_]

The only myth about playing him back is that he could not be any better than any of the other alternatives

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Literally no one is saying that.

 

[TiAn_]

It would work similar to how the Dee's work with May and Lever. May takes the deep and Lever the high forward and they back themselves into mark. And who is their gun forward making them strong contenders?

In our case Jones would take the deep as he does now.

All leading contenders have at least 2 defenders comfortably in the top 50 of intercept marks.

We have 1, Jones obviously. Our next best is our ruckman. Attack comes from both midfield and off half back. We are realying on Keath, Gardiner, TOB, Bruce and a little of JOD. We don't change this backline mix we will not be winning anything soon.

And just on 2016, Morris played the deep role and Easton played the high role so was in position to take the intercept mark whilst defending his apponent.

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Bayley Fritsch and his 55+ goals not a gun? And even then they’re desperate for a key forward. Don’t forget their interest in Naughton.

It’s decimating Peter to settle Paul’s debts.

 

[doggies ftw]

Certainly worth a try as the current forward structure has not worked for some time.

Part is the delivery, they other part is movement, leading patters, working together.

All good teams have multiple options with smalls and mids also providing options

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What makes you think our coaching can get functioning forward line out of anyone? Removing Naughty doesn’t instantly mean the forward line will work well lol, we’ve had 20 odd players tried through there over the past 5 years and barely once have we got it right, closest being ‘21 which actually involved Naughty - and even that was more based around weight of numbers in supply.

This magical thought that we take out Naughty and everybody else is going to all of a sudden step up and start creating space, putting on blocks is just a flipping pipe dream lmao. This team has never been coached to do that.

 

[Mojorisin]

What makes you think our coaching can get functioning forward line out of anyone? Removing Naughty doesn’t instantly mean the forward line will work well lol, we’ve had 20 odd players tried through there over the past 5 years and barely once have we got it right, closest being ‘21 which actually involved Naughty - and even that was more based around weight of numbers in supply.

This magical thought that we take out Naughty and everybody else is going to all of a sudden step up and start creating space, putting on blocks is just a *ing pipe dream lmao. This team has never been coached to do that.

It may not improve the forward line but it will sure as he'll improve the defence.

 

[doggies ftw]

It may not improve the forward line but it will sure as he'll improve the defence.

Well what goods that when our defence has actually been okay this year but our forward line is worst in the comp?

Seems like a downgrade to me

 

[immortalmike]

Well what goods that when our defence has actually been okay this year but our forward line is worst in the comp?

Seems like a downgrade to me

Aren't you in favour of tanking mate?
Whoo! Naughton to defence!
Let's make it four losses in a row.

 

[Mojorisin]

Well what goods that when our defence has actually been okay this year but our forward line is worst in the comp?

Seems like a downgrade to me

Liam Jones has been good this year our defence has been poor.

 

[lachy]

It may not improve the forward line but it will sure as he'll improve the defence.

It's not like a strong and also attacking defence with a good midfield gives you a greater opportunity come September.

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[lachy]

What makes you think our coaching can get functioning forward line out of anyone? Removing Naughty doesn’t instantly mean the forward line will work well lol, we’ve had 20 odd players tried through there over the past 5 years and barely once have we got it right, closest being ‘21 which actually involved Naughty - and even that was more based around weight of numbers in supply.

This magical thought that we take out Naughty and everybody else is going to all of a sudden step up and start creating space, putting on blocks is just a *ing pipe dream lmao. This team has never been coached to do that.

With Naughton in there we have an unproductive forward line for our forward entries. Naughton's fault, absolutely not. You are correct we do not have a functioning forward line. One player alone makes next to no difference.

However, premiership teams for the last 10 years have strong intercept markers, those who can run the lines to break down opposition defensive structures. Keath, TOB, Gardiner, or Bruce will never be those players. JOD was worth a try and for some unknown reason was played forward twice, what a shock that did not work.

Who is Collingwood's goal kickers, Melbourne, Brisbane even Port Adelaide. They all have a spread and they all have KPD's who intercept and create.

We can keep trying players clearly not up to it or we could try someone who has all the attributes, was 4th in our best and fairest in his first year to change that. Or we can keep hoping the forward line functions with him there and some miracle occurs with Keath, Gards, TOB, Bruce or JOD amd they become a player they have never shown they will be.



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