Strategy Aaron Naughton - Key Defender or Key Forward?

[immortalmike]

4th in Best and Fairest is fast becoming the new "accepting mediocrity".

 

[lachy]

4th in Best and Fairest is fast becoming the new "accepting mediocrity".

Nah accepting mediocrity is accepting Keath, Bruce, Gardiner, TOB and JOD as a key defender in a year we could still win something

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[TiAn_]

4th in Best and Fairest is fast becoming the new "accepting mediocrity".

Hayden Crozier also came 8th that year even though he missed 5 games and Bailey Williams missed 9 games and finished 10th. I recall there was a quirk in our voting that favoured defenders, but can’t find the article about it.

 

[immortalmike]

Hayden Crozier also came 8th that year even though he missed 5 games and Bailey Williams missed 9 games and finished 10th. I recall there was a quirk in our voting that favoured defenders, but can’t find the article about it.

The other quirk was we were getting messed up and the ball was always in our back half.

 

[immortalmike]

You genuinely think he would be no better than Bruce, Keath, Gardiner, TOB or JOD without even trying it!!!!

Btw big scores in one of the games of the year today

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A score does not equal a big score.

Calm down and go easy on the exclamation marks. I literally stated I'd be a better option than those guys. But that's hardly a high bar.

If you're suggesting moving him to be incrementally better than a broken down Alex Keath is somehow the panacea to even some of our woes then you are delusional. The only way he makes enough of a difference is if he plays as well as Jones at the very least. That is a pipe dream. And still he's better off being better coached forward.

 

[lachy]

A score does not equal a big score.

Calm down and go easy on the exclamation marks. I literally stated I'd be a better option than those guys. But that's hardly a high bar.

If you're suggesting moving him to be incrementally better than a broken down Alex Keath is somehow the panacea to even some of our woes then you are delusional. The only way he makes enough of a difference is if he plays as well as Jones at the very least. That is a pipe dream. And still he's better off being better coached forward.

Games are won by scoring more than the opposition, surely you agree.

We have lost the last 2 games, against good teams, Naughton not having great games, playing a role someone with less ability could have played.

Yet last game replace him with Bruce who many would say cost us 5 goals in the first quarter alone and provided no drive, Keath pretty much nothing.

Week before against the Cats in turnovers alone let alone poor contests, lack of intercept marks TOB and Gards cost us at least 6 goals.

Naughton only needed to play reasonable games back in those games and we are much more likely to win.

That is the last 2 games alone. Playing sub par defenders is a key component killing our season as a bit of support for Jones we likely are top 4 now. We have no one, Nada, zip on our list who can play the key defence role of intercept marking. One that requires skill and speed which also can provide run from the backline.

We can keep doing what you and others are suggesting but we will not score enough goals to compensate for our down back issues.

We need to decide whether we want to try and change the year around with what we have or we can hope for some mythical coaching.

Naughton has the skills, has shown an aptitude at AFL level and has developed strength and physicality to maybe, just maybe make a difference but if we keep doing the same thing don't expect different results

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[TiAn_]

Saw Bailey Dale

31

Bailey Dale

Age

28

Ht

188cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.2

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

1.6

4star

MG

117.4

2star

D

9.0

2star

K

5.1

2star

HB

3.9

3star

M

2.3

2star

T

1.7

3star

MG

117.4

2star

D

8.0

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.0

3star

M

1.4

2star

T

2.0

4star

kill it for about 5 weeks up forward, reckon we swap him and Naughton, solve all our problems in one go and book in the Palladium for GF night.

 

[lachy]

Fair enough for supporters to not want Naughts to go to the backline in preference of playing forward. But it takes being a genuine nuffy to believe he couldn’t go back and play it well. Either that or you were living under a rock during the season he played there.

If it’s the latter, it’s excusable.

Apparently under 12's is an equivalence of a full year in the AFL. Guy could be our Darcy Moore, Lever, May, Harris Andrews, Aliir Aliir etc all of which are critical for those teams the top 4 being where they are and challenging.

We have Gards, Keath, Bruce, TOB and part time JOD and wonder why we are not consistently competing at their level.

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[immortalmike]

Wow.
I genuinely give up.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Regardless of this discussion, if we persist with Gardner and O’brien as our defenders on this list, I give up.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Apparently under 12's is an equivalence of a full year in the AFL. Guy could be our Darcy Moore, Lever, May, Harris Andrews, Aliir Aliir etc all of which are critical for those teams the top 4 being where they are and challenging.

We have Gards, Keath, Bruce, TOB and part time JOD and wonder why we are not consistently competing at their level.

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Jones this season has shown how desperate we are for good key defenders.

I’m not in the go back camp but softening up to the idea. Especially considering we’re looking pretty strong up forward with Marra and now Darcy in the picture.

Like I said, fair enough wanting him to stay fwd, but it really is a bizarre claim that he couldn’t play really well as a key defender.

 

[lachy]

Jones this season has shown how desperate we are for good key defenders.

I’m not in the go back camp but softening up to the idea. Especially considering we’re looking pretty strong up forward with Marra and now Darcy in the picture.

Like I said, fair enough wanting him to stay fwd, but it really is a bizarre claim that he couldn’t play really well as a key defender.

I am really only now believe he should go back, having changed from wanting him to stay forward, as our key back options are really poor to say the least and the top 4 teams are showing the trend of the last couple of years of having your key backs as your guns and working with a multi pronged forward line that is not as predictable for entries in.

He will be significantly better than Bruce, Keath, Gardiner, TOB. That would not be marginal at all. Whether he is as good and impact games as much as Moore, Lever, Day, Stewart, Harris Andrews, Aliir Aliir who knows, but he has significantly more chance than those we have.

He was moved forward as our leading goalkicker the year before was Billy Gowers.

We have something to work now with Marra, Lobb, Bruce and Darcy when he is back. We could also look at changing Cody's game to his strengths, having supportive leading patterns and separation so they are all not competing for the same football. Maybe even a role for Buku in that group no matter my personal opinion.

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[Charlie Bucket]

Regardless of this discussion, if we persist with Gardner and O’brien as our defenders on this list, I give up.

I think both being dropped last week, and Keath a few weeks prior, is a sign the coaches are frustrated with the output of all our backs bar Jones.

Wouldn’t surprise if we go looking for an established key back in the off season. Jones holding the fort until Buss and JOD come on could get ugly.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

I am really only now believe he should go back, having changed from wanting him to stay forward, as our key back options are really poor to say the least and the top 4 teams are showing the trend of the last couple of years of having your key backs as your guns and working with a multi pronged forward line that is not as predictable for entries in.

He will be significantly better than Bruce, Keath, Gardiner, TOB. That would not be marginal at all. Whether he is as good and impact games as much as Moore, Lever, Day, Stewart, Harris Andrews, Aliir Aliir who knows, but he has significantly more chance than those we have.

He was moved forward as our leading goalkicker the year before was Billy Gowers.

We have something to work now with Marra, Lobb, Bruce and Darcy when he is back. We could also look at changing Cody's game to his strengths, having supportive leading patterns and separation so they are all not competing for the same football. Maybe even a role for Buku in that group no matter my personal opinion.

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The appeal with Naughts back is that he has the attributes and strength to play 1v1 defence, but also reads the flight and has strength in the air to play intercept as well. Both things we’re desperate for and as you say is a real strength of the better teams in the comp that are well equiped in this area.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

We have something to work now with Marra, Lobb, Bruce and Darcy when he is back.

This is what is starting to sway me. Moving Naughts back a few years ago would have been a disaster. We’ve now got some other options at play and could even see a fwd line function differently with different types of forwards in there.

 

[LittleG]

For this year, we must use the best players we have in their best roles. This may mean a different setup than ideal:

FB JJ/Cleary/VDM LJones Doc
HB Dale Naughton Richards/Keath/JOD
C Williams Macrae Scott
HF Bont Weightman JUH
FF West Lobb AJones
R English Treloar Libba
INT Daniel Smith Baker JOD/Keath

Play Weightman replaces Naughton as a KPF, since he is going to jump anyway. Play a very sore Bont forward. Lobb becomes the only slow more stationary tall and his lack of marking will deter players from kicking the bomb into the forward half. IF they do, he is instructed to punch to further deter this method.

Move Naughton to CHB. Make the defence a strength.

 

[_Mike_]

That ship has long sailed IMO, having English resting on the backline looks more likely a longer term solution.

Changing the subject, perhaps time to consider moving Macrae on the 1/2 back line.. Why ?

• it was done with Moyd when he was no longer used as an inside mid and was starting to slow down, it was a brilliant move that gave the backline much needed stability
• Macrae is a good reader of the footy, an intelligent player
• Macrae's longevity might be increased, no longer getting the hard tag in the middle with the body being battered

Would be better than TOB, wouldnt spoil his team mates like Gards does, Doc is cooked and I think we've seen the last of Crozier

 

[Conception]

I'm not missing the point. Your point is just a hypothetical, "I'm sure if this thing that never happened happened then this other thing that never happened would have happened". Rance was tried forward in his second season. Even though he was great in defence his first season. There's a reason for that. There's not much point discussing this if you actually think even if Richmond knew Rance could kick 60 goals a year they would still have chosen to play him defence his entire career.

A 50-60 goal a year forward is not more valuable than arguably the greatest defender to ever play the game. If you couldn't figure out something this straight-forward then... yeah, clearly there is no point in continuing

 

[doggies ftw]

A 50-60 goal a year forward is not more valuable than arguably the greatest defender to ever play the game. If you couldn't figure out something this straight-forward then... yeah, clearly there is no point in continuing

Hot damn, greatest defender to ever play the game is a ****ing stretch

 

[Conception]

How is it not the reality of what defending entails? Did you actually watch what Easton Wood spent 95% of his time doing? It wasn't taking hangers. We rarely play a loose man behind the ball. He's not a medium defender, he would be our CHB. Like Jones, Gardner or O'Brien, he would be responsible for an opposition forward most of the time. Liam Jones is in All-Australian contention. You'd be getting something similar to that, although without Jones' size, experience or nous.

No one is saying he wouldn't be very good behind the ball. But there's a lot of fairlyland thinking that we can just slot him in at CHB and he'll be the best defender in the competition and fix our defence and the 50 goals and 40 odd contested marks will just reappear after we sprinkle some fairy dust on the forward line.

Sorry I didn't realize I was supposed to take Beveridge's tactics in 2015-2016 into account when suggesting what Aaron Naughton could bring to us as a defender from 2023-onwards

 

[Conception]

Hot damn, greatest defender to ever play the game is a ******* stretch

How is that a stretch? Alex Rance is absolutely right up there with the best. That isn't even remotely a hot take.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

That ship has long sailed IMO, having English resting on the backline looks more likely a longer term solution.

Changing the subject, perhaps time to consider moving Macrae on the 1/2 back line.. Why ?

• it was done with Moyd when he was no longer used as an inside mid and was starting to slow down, it was a brilliant move that gave the backline much needed stability
• Macrae is a good reader of the footy, an intelligent player
• Macrae's longevity might be increased, no longer getting the hard tag in the middle with the body being battered

Would be better than TOB, wouldnt spoil his team mates like Gards does, Doc is cooked and I think we've seen the last of Crozier

Boyd went back playing a Caleb Daniel type quarter back role. He didn’t replace any tall def roles as you’re suggesting Macrae does. I don’t think Macrae has the tools to replicate a 3rd tall role.

He’d have to come in to replace either Dale, Richards or JJ. All have him covered for pace and skill. Dale and Richards have him covered for intercept ability.

If it was out of necessity due to lack of other options and we desperately needed someone down there, then yeah maybe could work. Doing it now when he’s not good enough to play 3rd tall, and behind 3 other better options at half back would be a strange move from the coaches. Would be like playing JOD as the 4th tall fwd. Not needed, and/or not an ideal position for him.

 

[_Mike_]

Boyd went back playing a Caleb Daniel type quarter back role. He didn’t replace any tall def roles as you’re suggesting Macrae does. I don’t think Macrae has the tools to replicate a 3rd tall role.

He’d have to come in to replace either Dale, Richards or JJ. All have him covered for pace and skill. Dale and Richards have him covered for intercept ability.

Aware of that, missing Ed and JJ for 8+ weeks will hurt. Macrae could slot in there and is far smarter with the football than TOB & Gards combined

 

[Highlander]

That ship has long sailed IMO, having English resting on the backline looks more likely a longer term solution.

Changing the subject, perhaps time to consider moving Macrae on the 1/2 back line.. Why ?

• it was done with Moyd when he was no longer used as an inside mid and was starting to slow down, it was a brilliant move that gave the backline much needed stability
• Macrae is a good reader of the footy, an intelligent player
• Macrae's longevity might be increased, no longer getting the hard tag in the middle with the body being battered

Would be better than TOB, wouldnt spoil his team mates like Gards does, Doc is cooked and I think we've seen the last of Crozier

I actually think this is a brilliant idea that is likely to work out well, his height would be handy in defence as well.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Aware of that, missing Ed and JJ for 8+ weeks will hurt. Macrae could slot in there and is far smarter with the football than TOB & Gards combined

He wouldn’t be replacing Gards or O’Brien though. It’d be a stop gap to fill the void left by JJ and Richards is what you’re suggesting? So would probably take VDM’s spot.