AFL Discrimination against North Melbourne, St Kilda & The Western Bulldogs

[Teffy]

What get's me is the false perceptions that get perpetuated - such that the 'big 4' (Coll, Ess, Carl and Rich? or Haw?) need to be up and going to generate big crowds.

1998 is a perfect example. It was a record season average attendance for both H&A and total, H&A at 34,768, not beaten until 2005, and total season (inc finals) of 36,172 (again, not beaten until 2005).

And, who made up the top 8 at the end of the season?
North, Doggies, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, StKilda, West Coast and Essendon.

Carlton, Geel, Hawthorn and Collingwood finished 11th to 14th.

Although, of the biggest attended matches, a lot were the ususal suspects and the regular 'blockbusters' which supports the blockbuster concept.

Despite this - as a North fan, I'd love it if we could perhaps play Essendon twice a year sometime soon!! This weekend, North v Essendon would be a brilliant Friday night game and would probably fill the ground (although Essendon go in for their fully ticketed stadium).

An annual North v Doggies blockbuster on Good Friday I reckon would be good, or, even the Sunday evening before Queens Birthday Monday. Allow North and the Doggies to play a multi-cultural themed match.....bring out some of the great names,....Liberatore, Romero, Lesiputty, Petraglia......

Excellent post MM.

It highlights that there are only a very few exceptions when it comes down to the correlation between winning and attendances.

 

[Hawkk]

Get off the drugs. 2011 was a cracker intense game between Ess v Coll. as was 2009, 2010 a dud.

Never fails to sell out.

The rematch for Geel v hawks got 63k - patethic[/QUOTE]

Hardly a credible comparison, the last valid comparison was rd 19 last year which drew 59k to Essendon-Collingwood

The public holiday Tuesday game got 78.5k (and was a substantially better standard game than ANZAC Day, the day before)

 

[R00StaR]

As i said in another thread, we have teams that pretty much pack out the MCG already, it certainly cant hold all of members of 2x big 4 clubs now.

While this might maximise revenue now but its rather short sighted. We need to understand our stadiums have limited capacity so when clubs start reaching that capacity we have a few choices.

* Build a bigger stadium (150-200k?): If we keep promoting the same clubs then this has to be an option. It might be fine for 2 clubs, but the rest will only struggle to meet the break even figure. It wont be much good bar a few blockbusters and finals.

* Help lift the profile of some of the smaller clubs who have plenty of room to put bums on seats.

Look at the expected population growth, Vic can support all 10 teams in the future. If done right every Vic V Vic game could be a blockbuster.

We need to look 20-30year ahead, not just to the next TV deal or before know it we'll be in a situation where 70% of the population follow 2-3 clubs with no viable stadium to service them.

 

[telsor]

Excellent post MM.

It highlights that there are only a very few exceptions when it comes down to the correlation between winning and attendances.

1998, the year MM used.

Top attendance (avg)

Ess(8th): 54K
Coll(14th): 47.3K
Rich(9th): 46.5K

As opposed to...(the teams in the threat title)

North(1st): 38.K
Saints(6th): 38.2K
Bullies(2nd): 33.2K


So, where is this correlion between attendances and results you speak of?

There is clearly a far great correlation between attendances and teams.

 

[Ron The Bear]

1998, the year MM used.

Top attendance (avg)

Ess(8th): 54K
Coll(14th): 47.3K
Rich(9th): 46.5K

As opposed to...(the teams in the threat title)

North(1st): 38.K
Saints(6th): 38.2K
Bullies(2nd): 33.2K


So, where is this correlion between attendances and results you speak of?

There is clearly a far great correlation between attendances and teams.

Another way to look at it is via average crowds with and without big 4 involvement:

Year W/out  With Ratio  TotalAtt
--------------------------------
1997 30120 40561 74.3% 5,842,591
1998 31255 42846 72.9% 6,119,164
1999 29390 40027 73.4% 5,771,579

Regardless of which clubs are performing well, total attendance is closely linked to big 4 participation.

 

[Tiger2709]

If Melbourne can draw 80k to the G vs Collingwood on an annual fixture, then any of the teams I mentioned could as well.

North Melbournes two biggest rivals are Essendon & Hawthorn so why not give them a regular date against one of these sides?

St Kilda v Collingwood has been a great rivalry recently, and with the drawn GF, the AFL should have set up a regular fixture between the two. Would easily draw 70k+ every year.

Thats fine, but Richmond, Essendon or Carlton could be at the bottom of the ladder and still draw a bigger crowd.

 

[Barkly St End]

It's often forgotten that it was North that pioneered Friday night games.

 

[Hawkk]

Thats fine, but Richmond, Essendon or Carlton could be at the bottom of the ladder and still draw a bigger crowd.

St Kilda drew 4000 more than Richmond when they played Collingwood (down from 15,000 last year)

You’d think posters would use at least one year as reference to support their claims (however ridiculous they are )

 

[RooHooDoo]

I dont think anyone is arguing that the big teams will not always attract more people to games.

The point of the thread is that if the fixture continues to be lopsided like it is now the disparity is only going to increase with time.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I dont think anyone is arguing that the big teams will not always attract more people to games.

The point of the thread is that if the fixture continues to be lopsided like it is now the disparity is only going to increase with time.

Totally agree with this. It's a snowball effect. More fans = more marquee timeslots and games = more exposure = more kids asking their parents to buy them a Collingwood guernsey = more fans and the cycle continues.

The problem is that the people running the AFL have too much of their bonuses tied up in increasing overall revenue. What should be absolutely paramount is for the entire competition to be as fair and equitable as possible in all ways.

People give clubs like North and the Bulldogs shit for getting payments from the AFL, but they'd swap those payments in a second for the kind of exposure Collingwood and Essendon get year in year out.

Scheduling and TV exposure needs to be even. Every team should get an as even as possible number of friday night games, etc.

 

[Gak Attack]

It's often forgotten that it was North that pioneered Friday night games.

So we hear and while I would agree they should get some reward for this.. perhaps the first every year or something? However I don't see how this always finds its way into blockbuster games talk, are you saying they should play every Friday night? If so what's to stop other teams asking for a select slot every week?

Perhaps just dropping the blockbusters all together would make people happy? Essendon v Pies will still draw a big crowd, perhaps not as big but still bigger than any the clubs mentioned will get.. same with us v Essendon. The dreamtime game wasn't set on a Saturday night to start with, is there somewhere where the AFL has said they wouldn't let another successful concept game get locked into a Saturday night as well?

 

[Ron The Bear]

I dont think anyone is arguing that the big teams will not always attract more people to games.

The point of the thread is that if the fixture continues to be lopsided like it is now the disparity is only going to increase with time.

Perhaps more accurate to say the disparity won't decrease. Successive administrations have created a culture of manufactured fixturing - it'll be a courageous head honcho who sacrifices revenue in the short term to return to a level playing field.

 

[Tulip]

I wonder what kind of blockbuster could be manufactured for Port. Obviously you get a Showdown each year but outside of that, it is hard to see where your natural 'market' would be.

As in, North vs Carlton on Good Friday has a natural market.

They don't need another one. The Showdown is one of the bigger blockbusters out there.

 

[Tulip]

Seems daft to consider Queens Birthday a national blockbuster considering WA pretty well doesn't care for or watch it.

Okay...

I don't know if all Victorians have much of an interest in the Showdown, Derby or Qclash but ceontinue on.

 

[Rob]

Totally agree with this. It's a snowball effect. More fans = more marquee timeslots and games = more exposure = more kids asking their parents to buy them a Collingwood guernsey = more fans and the cycle continues.

The problem is that the people running the AFL have too much of their bonuses tied up in increasing overall revenue. What should be absolutely paramount is for the entire competition to be as fair and equitable as possible in all ways.

People give clubs like North and the Bulldogs shit for getting payments from the AFL, but they'd swap those payments in a second for the kind of exposure Collingwood and Essendon get year in year out.

The problem with that is that the reason why they get poor exposure and big annual handouts is the same - not enough supporters.

You can't force the media to write stories about certain clubs - they are always going to try and structure their newspaper/TV show/radio show/web site to attract the most people.

And it's also not realistic to give every club the same fixture which allows for the same exposure. No sporting league in the world does it. Hell, in the EPL they even allocate TV revenue in accordance with how many times you appear in the 'blockbuster' timeslots. In that case we'd be seeing Collingwood and Essendon get a bonus payment for appearing in the Anzac Day game.

 

[worstfold]

its got nothing to do with time slots....... say north for example-have no superstars or any exciting players to go watch which plays a large part as to why noone has any interest in the club

 

[Hoser]

I think part of the problem is that each club's supporters don't want a fair draw. They want a blatantly biased draw in favour of their club. Why? Because that's what Collingwood gets.

If the AFL scheduled the draw evenly amongst all teams, each team would get:

1 friday night home game + 1 away game (and an extra one if you're lucky)
11 FTA slots
Home games against 2 of the big 4, 3 if they're lucky

These are all things that most years, all Victorian clubs receive. Yet we still see threads like this. Supporters want 8 Friday night games a year plus guaranteed blockbusters on public holidays, and they won't be happy until they get it.

Not true. Would be perfectly happy to accept a draw as opposed to the current fixture system. Obvious problems with a draw will continue to exist but is it really too much to expect that we play everyone at least once before we start having return games?

 

[pazza]

Well tonight has been an interesting case study.

Footscray on FNF. Lucky to be 20000 with an interstate side involved. The AFL and Footscray must be embarrassed by the turn-out.

 

[R00StaR]

Well tonight has been an interesting case study.

Footscray on FNF. Lucky to be 20000 with an interstate side involved. The AFL and Footscray must be embarrassed by the turn-out.

Well they arent one of the larger clubs, but if they'd been playing a Vic club (except Melbourne) tonight youd expect there'd be 33-35k which is a pretty reasonable result given their form. Bit silly having smaller clubs Vs interstate teams on tbh.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Well they arent one of the larger clubs, but if they'd been playing a Vic club (except Melbourne) tonight youd expect there'd be 33-35k which is a pretty reasonable result given their form. Bit silly having smaller clubs Vs interstate teams on tbh.

So who do you want to play? Collingwood? Take a number and form an orderly queue.

If fans of these clubs wont turn up to games they dont deserve prime time coverage.

 

[R00StaR]

So who do you want to play? Collingwood? Take a number and form an orderly queue.

If fans of these clubs wont turn up to games they dont deserve prime time coverage.

For tonight it couldve Dogs V any Victorian team, bar Melbourne at docklands (the ground may as well be interstate for them) and it would have a reasonable crowd.

Unlike so many people if im in theatre half full it has no bearing on how i judge the movie. Im surprised people even see the game they focus so much on people in seats.

 

[serenityNow]

Well tonight has been an interesting case study.

Footscray on FNF. Lucky to be 20000 with an interstate side involved. The AFL and Footscray must be embarrassed by the turn-out.

19,363


On topic i wouldn't count Carltons season opener as a future fixture. AD has mentioned a few times that it wont be a lock.

I would say Carlton don't really have any lock away fixtures.

Would love to see Carlton & Hawthorn get given the Good Friday fixture, they've been putting in the request and been knocked back the last couple of years but hopefully the AFL come round.
Its a game that could become huge and raise a lot of money for the childrens hospital on the day. Have it at the g and it will grow.


Giving it to Nth and the Dogs is pointless. It would be played at Etihad and would demand little interest and eventually die in the arse.

 

[the dog's kennel]

Well tonight has been an interesting case study.

Footscray on FNF. Lucky to be 20000 with an interstate side involved. The AFL and Footscray must be embarrassed by the turn-out.

I'm unsure whether you're being a troll or moronic.

I don't see anyone in this thread calling for a blockbuster between the Dogs and an interstate side. By contrast, two of the three clubs named in this thread played on Friday Night last week. Both were at a low ebb - and yet they drew 31,000.

Now I'm not suggesting that is a great number. It is not. But it is at least a RELEVANT number. What I find odd is that you chose to ignore that RELEVANT number to instead beat up on the Dogs with an IRRELEVANT number.

That is of course, unless you can quote someone calling for blockbusters between the Crows and Dogs. I'm all ears.

P.S. For the record, while I'd love a Dogs-Roos Good Friday match, I am quite content with the blockbuster system as it currently exists. I agree the smaller clubs don't draw big crowds, and shouldn't be owed handout blockbusters. But i still find the lame chest-beating in this thread irritating.

 

[Rob]

So who do you want to play? Collingwood? Take a number and form an orderly queue.

They should definitely demand that they get to play Collingwood on Friday night twice a year. They should also protest how many Friday night games Collingwood get. Deadset joke.

 

[Gainzo]

Not sure why the Saints are included in this thread (no offence to North or the Doggies) as they have pulled big crowds over the last 4-5 seasons, have a membership of 40,000, and probably have the biggest dormant fan base in Australia (Not bad for a team with 1 premiership).

Would be good if some of those dormant supporters rocked up to games but the Saints are doing better than half the comp in attendance. Should be a good crowd tonight vs the Cats.