AFL Team of the 21st Century (Rolling)

[Grockadoc]

He was dominant 2014-15 also. Across those 2 seasons averaged 25.7 touches, 1.13 goals and 6.8 SI’s per game and got 34 Brownlow votes. Was also AA squad both years.

As a comparison and at a similar age Rozee has played a mid-fwd role in 2022-23 and was an AA selection both years, averaging 24.6, 0.8 goals and 6.5 SI’s with 35 Brownlow votes.

Then Martin’s first 4 x seasons were 2010-13, so how did he start his career compared to a few modern day contemporaries and their first 4 x seasons ?

Disposals:
*Martin 22.27
Neale 22.27
Pendles 21.22
Danger 14.97
GAJ 14.72

Goals:
GAJ 1.27
Danger 1.11
*Martin 1.05
Pendles 0.6
Neale 0.51

SI’s (only 2 x players with those stats)
*Martin 7.23
Neale 4.72

Inside 50’s:
*Martin 3.99
GAJ 3.42
Pendles 2.71
Danger 2.48
Neale 2.27

Contested Poss:
Neale 9.56
Danger 8.41
*Martin 8.37
Pendles 8.07
GAJ 8.04

Clearances:
Neale 4.01
*Martin 3.58
Pendles 3.19
Danger 3.08
GAJ 2.1

Coaches votes:
*Martin 1.58
Neale 1.14
Pendles 0.99
Danger 0.58

Brownlow votes:
*Martin 0.45
Pendles 0.29
Neale 0.26
Danger 0.14
GAJ 0.11

So it’s fair to say Martin’s first 4 seasons were vastly superior to the first 4 seasons of Neale, GAJ, Danger and Pendles.

Then his 5th and 6th seasons were AA squad averaging 25 touches and 1.13 goals per game with 34 Brownlow votes.

Then his 7th season was 2016 where he was 3rd in the Brownlow and coaches votes and made AA.

Then came 2017-2020.

Then 2021 and 2022 were injury and mental health affected.

Then 2023 when fit he averaged 23 touches, 1.25 goals, 7.7 score involvements and made AA squad and finished 2nd in B&F.

So outside of 2017-20 he has still been elite almost every single season.


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Dusty is a victim of having such a high ceiling in the 2017-2020 period that it overshadows how good he was in the years before that. His stats during those season pre-brownlow were fantasti.

 

[Unpredictable]

B Enright Rance Scarlett
HB Hodge McGovern McLeod
W Goodes Voss Buckley
HF Martin N Riewoldt S Johnson
FF Franklin M Lloyd Betts
R Gawn Judd Ablett Jnr
IC T Stewart P Dangerfield J Akermanis M Pavlich


in the Squad: D Fletcher, C Johnson, Leppa, B Lake, S Pendlebury S Mitchell, S Black, B Cousins, N Fyfe B Johnson, J Hird, M Ricciuto, C Rioli, D Cox, T Hawkins, B Fevola, W Tredrea, S Milne,

I wouldn't pay attention to the 21st century part either, couldn't possibly have Buckley in it if you did?

I'd put Doug Hawkins on the wing!

 

[South of the Yarra]

I wouldn't pay attention to the 21st century part either, couldn't possibly have Buckley in it if you did?

I'd put Doug Hawkins on the wing!

Buckley won 3 All Australians, a Brownlow and a Norm Smith this century. Martin is only a 4 x All Australian in his career. Buckley misses this century so does Martin.

 

[South of the Yarra]

I don’t have room for Dustin Martin in my 22. He cannot compete with the sheer consistency of the greats of this century. A man who plays midfield and has only won 4 x All Australians and 2 Club Best and Fairests does not come close to the Team of the Century.

 

[RUNVS]

I don’t have room for Dustin Martin in my 22. He cannot compete with the sheer consistency of the greats of this century. A man who plays midfield and has only won 4 x All Australians and 2 Club Best and Fairests does not come close to the Team of the Century.

Especially as the midfield is the easiest position to rack up All Australians since the AA judges often shove midfielders in spots they never played in.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Dusty is a victim of having such a high ceiling in the 2017-2020 period that it overshadows how good he was in the years before that. His stats during those season pre-brownlow were fantasti.

Yeah … in 2014 he finished 3rd in the B&F (Cotchin won it) and 2015 he finished 2nd in the B&F (Rance won it).

So after those first 4 x seasons where he was vastly superior to GAJ, Danger, Neale and Pendles in their first 4 seasons, he:

2014: AA squad. 3rd B&F. 25.4 disposals and 1.2 goals. 13 Brownlow votes.

2015: AA squad. 2nd B&F. 26.0 disposals and 1.0 goals. 21 Brownlow votes.

2016. AA team. B&F. 31.1 disposals and 0.4 goals. 25 Brownlow votes.

2017-20: 3 x AA team. 1 x AA squad. 3 x Ayres awards. 3 x NS etc….

2021: was averaging 22.6 disposals and 1.2 goals per game when suffered a lacerated kidney about R15.

2022: mental health issues early then missed 10-weeks with a hamstring. Played only 9 x games and averaged 18.3 disposals and 1.3 goals (was subbed out injured at halftime in one of the games).

2023: AA squad. 2nd B&F. Averaged 23.6 disposals and 1.2 goals per game.

It’s a shame he suffered a kidney laceration and then had his Dad pass away and a bad hammy which cost him a good portion of 2 x seasons when still at his peak.




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[Unpredictable]

Buckley won 3 All Australians, a Brownlow and a Norm Smith this century.

How many flags?

Martin is only a 4 x All Australian in his career. Buckley misses this century so does Martin.

I've seen people arguing that Martin shouldn't make it though, but I've seen no one question why Buckley has been picked, it's hilarious!

 

[Noidnadroj]

I don’t have room for Dustin Martin in my 22. He cannot compete with the sheer consistency of the greats of this century. A man who plays midfield and has only won 4 x All Australians and 2 Club Best and Fairests does not come close to the Team of the Century.

So he plays midfield and has 11 x separate seasons where he averages 20+ disposals and 1+ goal a game. 9 x top-3 B&F. 210+ Brownlow votes……

If only all players were as inconsistent as this.

And of course AA selections are a worthy accolade. Martin made the squad in 2014, 2015, 2019 and 2023 but not the final team. Across those 4 x seasons (88 games) he averaged 25 disposals and 1.2 goals a game. He could have easily been selected in the team any of those years.

To put those numbers maintained over a 4-year period into perspective, do you know how many players in 2023 averaged 25+ touches and 1.2+ goals per game? Zero.

What about 2022? Zero.

What about 2021? Yep, good guess, zero.

So Martin averaged over 4 x seasons in years where he didn’t make AA stats that not a single player averaged in a single season in any of 2021, 2022 or 2023.

But yeah, for sheer consistency he just can’t compete… unless of course you don’t rate a player who averages 25+ disposals and 1.2+ goals per game ..??


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[RUNVS]

How many flags?

I've seen people arguing that Martin shouldn't make it though, but I've seen no one question why Buckley has been picked, it's hilarious!

I questioned it only a few pages ago. I said I don't think Buckley and Voss should be in the team given majority of their careers were in the 20th century.

 

[Unpredictable]

I questioned it only a few pages ago. I said I don't think Buckley and Voss should be in the team given majority of their careers were in the 20th century.

I didn't see that, well done.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Buckley won 3 All Australians, a Brownlow and a Norm Smith this century. Martin is only a 4 x All Australian in his career. Buckley misses this century so does Martin.

This century - Martin v Buckley:

Games: 289 v 138
Goals: 328 v 140
AA: 4 v 3
Flags: 3 v 0
Norms: 3 v 1
B&F: 2 v 2
Top-3 B&F: 9 v 3
Brownlow: 1 v 1
Brownlow votes: 212 v 82

It’s absolutely neck and neck. A genuine head bobbing photo finish


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[DickDunn]

If you're putting together a team based purely on peak performance, rather than body of work, there is a strong argment for putting Naitanui on the bench as back-up ruck to Cox. Clearly the most dominant tap ruckman of his generation and a player who gave opposition coaches nightmares. Yeah yeah, he doesn't take marks/is overweight/overrated by Eagles fans. But he's gonna have 21 pretty good teammates to cover those flaws, and imagine him palming it down to Judd/Ablett etc. People picking Gawn (boring) either don't really like footy or are just captured by the VFL propaganda machine

 

[RUNVS]

If you're putting together a team based purely on peak performance, rather than body of work, there is a strong argment for putting Naitanui on the bench as back-up ruck to Cox. Clearly the most dominant tap ruckman of his generation and a player who gave opposition coaches nightmares. Yeah yeah, he doesn't take marks/is overweight/overrated by Eagles fans. But he's gonna have 21 pretty good teammates to cover those flaws, and imagine him palming it down to Judd/Ablett etc. People picking Gawn (boring) either don't really like footy or are just captured by the VFL propaganda machine

I don't think you can go with just peak performance. I think how long a player sustained that performance level is also important.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Dustin Martin makes the bench in my second team. Nothing to be ashamed of. Just doesn't cut it with the big guns. If we have a team of 2015-2020, he makes it, but not close to a Team of the Century. As a midfielder he was only Richmond's Best Player, twice this century. His own club only judged him the best twice. Don't let the hype overshadow the facts. Tony Free won two.

 

[Orange crush]

Yep it's Bont and Oliver for my mind in the middle-age mids who can come over the top from the current crop. It's to early from the younger guys, but if I had to guess I like Daicos and Green. Oliver won't have the goals, but he could lay claim with the most #1 seasons ever and cracking 5000 contested.

Your right for these guys it's continuing to play at the top of your game with the longevity factor and age waits for no one.

I agree …. Discos and Green will be pushing for spots

 

[Noidnadroj]

Dustin Martin makes the bench in my second team. Nothing to be ashamed of. Just doesn't cut it with the big guns. If we have a team of 2015-2020, he makes it, but not close to a Team of the Century. As a midfielder he was only Richmond's Best Player, twice this century. His own club only judged him the best twice. Don't let the hype overshadow the facts. Tony Free won two.

You’re getting there …. you started at 2017-20… then you moved into 2016-20 … now you’re at 2015-20. In 2014 he averaged 25.4 touches and 1.23 goals per game. From 2021-2023 not a single player averaged 25+ and 1.2+ in a season…. c’mon, that’s rare air and needs to be in there …. so you’d be at 2014-2020.

Or maybe you hold Martin to higher standards than everyone else and 25.4 / 1.23 just isn’t at your required level … even though not a single player has done it for 3-years..??!??


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[South of the Yarra]

You’re getting there …. you started at 2017-20… then you moved into 2016-20 … now you’re at 2015-20. In 2014 he averaged 25.4 touches and 1.23 goals per game. From 2021-2023 not a single player averaged 25+ and 1.2+ in a season…. c’mon, that’s rare air and needs to be in there …. so you’d be at 2014-2020.

Or maybe you hold Martin to higher standards than everyone else and 25.4 / 1.23 just isn’t at your required level … even though not a single player has done it for 3-years..??!??


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You want to quote possessions yet refuse to add the fact he averages more clangers than anyone in the history of the game. Your own club only voted him their best player twice this century. Does not come close to being in the team.

 

[theasian]

I wouldn't pay attention to the 21st century part either, couldn't possibly have Buckley in it if you did?

I'd put Doug Hawkins on the wing!

I guess because Richmond were shit in the first decade of the century, you wouldn't have watched a lot of Footy.

Hawkins retired in the 90s. Why would he be in the team?

 

[Frewy]

pavlich's legacy is impossible to analyse using conventional metrics. because he didn't have a position, even as a forward he was used as a general forward rather than

pavlich spent 6 seasons of his career in other positions its true. however, as a centre half forward i feel like reiwoldt is a better player at that position. unless pavlich has a dominant full-forward which allows him to be a crumbing player (very good below his feet) and his crisp kick would be awesome as a distributor. except for the fact freo never had a pair for him.

due to lack of forward options we rarely played him as a full forward during his prime. however, he did play there for half a season in 2012 (injured his achilles and never quite was the same player after). kicked 45 goals in the back half of that yeah, 8 against the eagles just quietly. is he better than loyyd, i wouldn't be bold enough to make that claim after only half a season in the role properly and not just in spurts.

as a defender the reason he won the all australian as a 22 year old was his distribution by foot. had a thumping kick. he got it because his score involvements and goals kicked for a full back were kinda insane. but the system allowed this. we had a bunch of players who could play tall or small (grover, parker, haddrill and mcpharlin). so pavlich was this weird fullback, running back. sitting off the back off the midfield as a fullback was also an option. but personally the defenders chosen were better at that role.

as a midfielder he would give you 21 to 24 possesions a game and 1 to 1.5 goals a game depending on his mid forward splits. but you'd probs prefer dusty.

as a forward flanker he set up a lot of goals with his kicking, and ground level stuff being better than the average small defender could handle helped as well. plus because he was our best forward him behaving like this could draw a key defender further up the field than they would like. destablizing the opposition defence. drawing the intercept marker away from there preferred position. but personally i would prefer franklin in this role.

in finals pavlich's performances in the 2005, 2010 and 2012 before his injury were insane. 3.15 goals a game, 20 plus possessions average. 2013 to 2015 post injury they were meh.

i will say this with pavlich he kicked 600 goals across 11 seasons as a forward. averaging about 2.6 goals a game across that time. if he had a similar average across his other 6 seasons but instead played as a forward he would have 900 goals across his career. if he played as a full forward he may will have cracked the 1000 goal mark.

i would draft pavlich, but reiwoldt's position as a centre half forward isn't controversial, i thinks its the correct choice.

I started think about this separately and went back to find some analysis, thanks by the way. I kind of glossed over CHF because I had Pav as a lock utility on the bench with Goodes as 2nd resting/mobile ruck.

I'm now more inclined to put Pav on-field at CHF, Goodes into utility and drop Cox back in as a 2nd ruck. It breaks me a little because Nick Riewoldt was my favourite player for many years, but I think Pav has the accolades, legacy and comparable forward stats even with the midfield and back time.

 

[theasian]

If you're putting together a team based purely on peak performance, rather than body of work, there is a strong argment for putting Naitanui on the bench as back-up ruck to Cox. Clearly the most dominant tap ruckman of his generation and a player who gave opposition coaches nightmares. Yeah yeah, he doesn't take marks/is overweight/overrated by Eagles fans. But he's gonna have 21 pretty good teammates to cover those flaws, and imagine him palming it down to Judd/Ablett etc. People picking Gawn (boring) either don't really like footy or are just captured by the VFL propaganda machine

Peak performace definitely Nic Nat as 1st ruck.

But you have to consider Body of Work whem chosing Team of the Century.

I'd still have him as the Third Best Ruck after Gawn and Cox this Century.

 

[theasian]

I started think about this separately and went back to find some analysis, thanks by the way. I kind of glossed over CHF because I had Pav as a lock utility on the bench with Goodes as 2nd resting/mobile ruck.

I'm now more inclined to put Pav on-field at CHF, Goodes into utility and drop Cox back in as a 2nd ruck. It breaks me a little because Nick Riewoldt was my favourite player for many years, but I think Pav has the accolades, legacy and comparable forward stats even with the midfield and back time.

Riewoldt over Pavlich at CHF any day.

Pav gets in to the bench due to his versatility

 

[theasian]

I questioned it only a few pages ago. I said I don't think Buckley and Voss should be in the team given majority of their careers were in the 20th century.

They played 7-8 seasons in the 21st century and had very good impact.

And Voss has played more matches in the 21st century. Even for Buckley it's really close toa 50-50 split

Remember, the Century starts from 2000.

Buckley won the Brownlow and NS , while Voss won MVP and 3 flags, this century.

You should not penalise them for spreading their careers over two centuries.

 

[Frewy]

They played 7-8 seasons in the 21st century and had very good impact.

And Voss has played more matches in the 21st century. Even for Buckley it's really close toa 50-50 split

Remember, the Century starts from 2000.

Buckley won the Brownlow and NS , while Voss won MVP and 3 flags, this century.

You should not penalise them for spreading their careers over two centuries.

The AFL will almost certainly release an AFL Team of the Century (Australian Rules) sometime down the track at which point the cut-off would be a clearer line in the sand date I would say. This would include WAFL/SANFL/TANFL etc. so players like M McIntosh, G Robran, K Farmer, R Ebert would be in contention.

Voss played more games after 2000 so I agree he would most likely be included in this century. The elephants in the room are Wayne Carey and Tony Lockett though and I also agree that players should not be penalised for spreading careers over two centuries.

 

[RUNVS]

The AFL will almost certainly release an AFL Team of the Century (Australian Rules) sometime down the track at which point the cut-off would be a clearer line in the sand date I would say. This would include WAFL/SANFL/TANFL etc. so players like M McIntosh, G Robran, K Farmer, R Ebert would be in contention.

Voss played more games after 2000 so I agree he would most likely be included in this century. The elephants in the room are Wayne Carey and Tony Lockett though and I also agree that players should not be penalised for spreading careers over two centuries.

Voss and Buckley are up in the air but Carey and Lockett surely aren't as both retired fairly soon after the 21st century began. Neither were close to their best in the 21st century.

 

[HTPunter]

Yeah … in 2014 he finished 3rd in the B&F (Cotchin won it) and 2015 he finished 2nd in the B&F (Rance won it).

So after those first 4 x seasons where he was vastly superior to GAJ, Danger, Neale and Pendles in their first 4 seasons, he:

2014: AA squad. 3rd B&F. 25.4 disposals and 1.2 goals. 13 Brownlow votes.

2015: AA squad. 2nd B&F. 26.0 disposals and 1.0 goals. 21 Brownlow votes.

2016. AA team. B&F. 31.1 disposals and 0.4 goals. 25 Brownlow votes.

2017-20: 3 x AA team. 1 x AA squad. 3 x Ayres awards. 3 x NS etc….

2021: was averaging 22.6 disposals and 1.2 goals per game when suffered a lacerated kidney about R15.

2022: mental health issues early then missed 10-weeks with a hamstring. Played only 9 x games and averaged 18.3 disposals and 1.3 goals (was subbed out injured at halftime in one of the games).

2023: AA squad. 2nd B&F. Averaged 23.6 disposals and 1.2 goals per game.

It’s a shame he suffered a kidney laceration and then had his Dad pass away and a bad hammy which cost him a good portion of 2 x seasons when still at his peak.




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I’d have Dusty in my team so I’m not arguing but it’s not really a good argument to use injury excuses - that does affect his career overall, it doesn’t get written off as an excuse.