AFL Team of the 21st Century (Rolling)

[RUNVS]

Yeah there's plenty of ways to look at it and I'm not going to necessarily dismiss any of those points. Martin does have the big game specialist tag (with big scoring impact) so he's always going to in contention for that forward flank spot.

"Lock" for the century this far out is a damn high ceiling for praise. Personally I'd think if he had another league MVP and couple more BnFs he'd be more worthy of that. Or did a mini (modern day) Ablett Senior and had a veteran year or two kicking 50/60 goals plus. If a non full forward comes along with multiple Brownlows and 600 plus goals, it would make that spot stiff competition. It might sound silly but there's 75 odd seasons left.

The problem with Martin, and it has always been his problem is we only really got 5 years of his best football. He took forever to reach that level, he reached it, spent 5 years up there, and then dropped off again. The other players on this list were at their best for 10+ years. Martin just wasn't at his best for long enough to seriously put him in these sort of conversations, just like Buddy would not be if he only played at his best between 2007 and 2011 and then dropped off.

 

[Mr Meow]

The problem with Martin, and it has always been his problem is we only really got 5 years of his best football. He took forever to reach that level, he reached it, spent 5 years up there, and then dropped off again. The other players on this list were at their best for 10+ years. Martin just wasn't at his best for long enough to seriously put him in these sort of conversations, just like Buddy would not be if he only played at his best between 2007 and 2011 and then dropped off.

Agreed. I know his Brownlow and Coaches votes totals are damn impressive even if modern day mids get a lot of love. But when you look at how many times he was in the top 6 players or so for either award it really isn't much. So in two of those years it's really carried by finals, which is fine but I think you'd want some wowing accolades over the non flag seasons to round it out.

 

[theasian]

Kevin Bartlett, with more than twice as many goals, would be picked ahead of Martin on a HFF, and he didn't make the first Team of the Century.

He was edged out by Reynolds. Probably 3 brownlows to none swung it in Dick's favour.

 

[Swan4Life]

I read the first 3 pages and then just stopped.

That the greatest contested footballer of ALL TIME can't even rate a mention - let alone get a gig - is laughable.

Or did I accidentally log on to the Bay 13 section of the board?

 

[Fadge]

I read the first 3 pages and then just stopped.

That the greatest contested footballer of ALL TIME can't even rate a mention - let alone get a gig - is laughable.

Or did I accidentally log on to the Bay 13 section of the board?

Who would that be?

 

[RUNVS]

Who would that be?

I am guessing Josh Kennedy, though I am not 100% sure.

Unfortunately Kennedy just was not flash enough to be in the discussion. He was a workhorse, and he didn't make too many highlights.

 

[Frewy]

Richmond fans really are obsessed with the Norm Smith, and considering how lopsided those games were, and how even Richmond fans at the time did not think Martin should have gotten the 2017 one, I am not sure how relevant the award is.

It's not just the Norm Smiths it's probably even more so the three Gary Ayres medals as well in premiership seasons. Those will be held in greater esteem I'd suggest in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually were issued backwards to the start of the AFL once we are certain that the voting process won't be changed.

 

[theasian]

I am guessing Josh Kennedy, though I am not 100% sure.

Unfortunately Kennedy just was not flash enough to be in the discussion. He was a workhorse, and he didn't make too many highlights.

Yes. But no way he can beat the likes of Mitchell, Black, Pendles, Carlton era Judd to be that premier ball winning mid.

 

[Frewy]

I am guessing Josh Kennedy, though I am not 100% sure.

Unfortunately Kennedy just was not flash enough to be in the discussion. He was a workhorse, and he didn't make too many highlights.

Yep Dangerfield has him covered by the length of the Flemington.

 

[Unpredictable]

I am guessing Josh Kennedy, though I am not 100% sure.

Unfortunately Kennedy just was not flash enough to be in the discussion. He was a workhorse, and he didn't make too many highlights.

Would you consider Silvio Foschini, David Murphy or Mark Browning for the team, Tony Morwood was really good too, even Mark Bayes, and no one talks about Paul Kelly ever?

 

[RUNVS]

Yep Dangerfield has him covered by the length of the Flemington.

Sort of. They are different players. Similar position but both went about it in a different way. Dangerfield may have had the burst that got him noticed, but Kennedy was a far more reliable kick.

 

[Unpredictable]

Yep Dangerfield has him covered by the length of the Flemington.

I don't know about Dangerfield, Darrin Pritchard has him covered in my opinion.

 

[RichLeMonde]

The problem with Martin, and it has always been his problem is we only really got 5 years of his best football. He took forever to reach that level, he reached it, spent 5 years up there, and then dropped off again. The other players on this list were at their best for 10+ years. Martin just wasn't at his best for long enough to seriously put him in these sort of conversations, just like Buddy would not be if he only played at his best between 2007 and 2011 and then dropped off.

This is a bit overstated.

He averaged 1.5 goals and > 22 possessions in his 2nd season as an 18 year old.

By his 4th year, he was 12th in the league for SI, while averaging 24 possessions.
Players in front of him for SI that year: Jobe, GAJ, Swan, Stevie J, Boomer, Pav, Buddy, Roughead, N Riewoldt, Beams, T Cloke.
Players behind him: Cyril, Black, Pendlebury, Selwood, S Mitchell, J Riewoldt.
He was 22 years old at the start of that season.

He had a dominant period 2016-2020. Then in 2021 he got a lacerated kidney, lost 15kg as he was quite unwell from the injury, and took 18 months to bounce back. So a bit like Hird, he's had 2 years out of the game or recovering from injury.

 

[PhatBoy]

I had both Breust and Stevie J in my side. If Brad Johnson was also eligible I have no idea how I would split them.

Steve Johnson had the goal average, flags, Norm Smith and also changed the way the game is played with his goalkicking.
Brad Johnson had the goals, games, AAs and club medals.

Breust is below both as it sits right now, but like I said if he goes 600-650+ we need to have another chat.

Breust is a fantastic player and absolutely exceptional at what he does. Just not sure if he would have the versatility to excel in another part time endeavour as much as the others could.

 

[RUNVS]

Breust is a fantastic player and absolutely exceptional at what he does. Just not sure if he would have the versatility to excel in another part time endeavour as much as the others could.

Also is Bruest actually a small forward? To me Bruest and Buddy are opposite. Buddy is a small forward trapped in a tall forwards body and Bruest is a tall forward trapped in a small forwards body.

 

[Frewy]

Yeah there's plenty of ways to look at it and I'm not going to necessarily dismiss any of those points. Martin does have the big game specialist tag (with big scoring impact) so he's always going to in contention for that forward flank spot.

"Lock" for the century this far out is a damn high ceiling for praise. Personally I'd think if he had another league MVP and couple more BnFs he'd be more worthy of that. Or did a mini (modern day) Ablett Senior and had a veteran year or two kicking 50/60 goals plus. If a non full forward comes along with multiple Brownlows and 600 plus goals, it would make that spot stiff competition. It might sound silly but there's 75 odd seasons left.

This is why I love the speculation. Not to gloss over century team honours I won't live to see, but more so prototyping the players we are yet to see. Try imagining what a player that is going to knock Dusty, GAJ, Buddy out of their spots looks like or what a better captain than Voss would need to do.

I'll use Buddy as an example. I'm thinking the glimpse of Paul Salmon we had before he did his knee in 1984 and was never the same or 2018 prelim Cox who played the game from Auskick. That's a 206 cm plus rucks with forward craft, leading skills, strong overhead marks and speed.

For rucks that could be a 215 cm mobile monster on the scale of Wilt Chamberlain that will make Cox look small at 211 cm. Bring on the next 75 years I say.

 

[Frewy]

Also is Bruest actually a small forward? To me Bruest and Buddy are opposite. Buddy is a small forward trapped in a tall forwards body and Bruest is a tall forward trapped in a small forwards body.

Nice insight. I've got Breust as a general forward (180 cm+) based even more so off the ways he plays for which, I think you would hold two spots in any side although its speculation three quarters of a century out. I'd like to think one spot would be saved for the greatest goalsneak or crumber in a pocket which by 2099 could be even taller than 180 cm.

Agree on your assessment which is why I am about 50/50 in thinking we will see someone better than Buddy.

 

[Frewy]

Breust is a fantastic player and absolutely exceptional at what he does. Just not sure if he would have the versatility to excel in another part time endeavour as much as the others could.

Fair points and probably why he is so underrated. He is the most grey-man I would think of any of the champions so far this century.

 

[Frewy]

Sort of. They are different players. Similar position but both went about it in a different way. Dangerfield may have had the burst that got him noticed, but Kennedy was a far more reliable kick.

I was aware of Dangerfield's accolades and goalkicking and whom I have in my starting midfield, but was surprised to see he was all time leader for contested possessions (4245 @ 13.22) noting his forward time. He is unlikely to be surpassed by any current players except for Oliver who could be the first to crack 5000, Kennedy finished on 4006 @ 13.81.

If Oliver gets back on track he may equal GAJ's three AFLCAs or even go past him, that would be unprecedented in the history of the game. For the record I don't consider Brownlows after 2003.

If any pure inside mid could make the team in 2099, they will look like Clayton Oliver if he gives another 7-8 seasons at close to 2021-22 quality. He currently averages 2521 @ 15.56 with next best Patrick Cripps on 2668 @ 14.58, that style of game takes a toll on the body though.

 

[Mr Meow]

I was aware of Dangerfield's accolades and goalkicking which have in my starting midfield, but was surprised to see he was all time leader for contested possessions (4245 @ 13.22) noting his forward time. He is unlikely to be surpassed by any current players except for Oliver who could be the first to crack 5000, Kennedy finished on 4006 @ 13.81.

If Oliver gets back on track he may equal GAJ's three AFLCAs or even go past him, that would be unprecedented in the history of the game. For the record I don't consider Brownlows after 2003.

If any pure inside mid could make the team in 2099, they will look like Clayton Oliver if he gives another 7-8 seasons at close to 2021-22 quality. He currently averages 2521 @ 15.56 with next best Patrick Cripps on 2668 @ 14.58, that style of game takes a toll on the body though.

300 plus goals, 200 plus goal assists and potentially 4500 plus contested possessions will be a tough marker to hit for midfielders. You might tick one or two off, but all three?

Maybe Bontempelli from the current generation if his longevity is supreme.

If you reduce it to 4000 CP's GAJ hits the mark and has a handy 445 goals.

 

[Frewy]

300 plus goals, 200 plus goal assists and potentially 4500 plus contested possessions will be a tough marker to hit for midfielders. You might tick one or two off, but all three?

Maybe Bontempelli from the current generation if his longevity is supreme.

Yep it's Bont and Oliver for my mind in the middle-age mids who can come over the top from the current crop. It's to early from the younger guys, but if I had to guess I like Daicos and Green. Oliver won't have the goals, but he could lay claim with the most #1 seasons ever and cracking 5000 contested.

Your right for these guys it's continuing to play at the top of your game with the longevity factor and age waits for no one.

 

[JackOutback]

Only one Josh Kennedy in contention and he just misses out to a combination of Buddy/Pav/Reiwoldt.

 

[PhatBoy]

Fair points and probably why he is so underrated. He is the most grey-man I would think of any of the champions so far this century.

It’s debatable how long it might be before we see a team containing a goal kicking forward line as exceptional as Buddy, Roughead, Breust and Gunston.

 

[Frewy]

It’s debatable how long it might be before we see a team containing a goal kicking forward line as exceptional as Buddy, Roughead, Breust and Gunston.

With Rioli as well they were an absolute powerhouse. The three-peat wasn't close except for Freo and they had far more scoring shots in the Sydney loss. Could and probably should have been a four-peat, but then Geelong kicked themselves out of 08 as well so it goes to show why three-peats and four-peats for that matter are so hard.

 

[Noidnadroj]

This is a bit overstated.

He averaged 1.5 goals and > 22 possessions in his 2nd season as an 18 year old.

By his 4th year, he was 12th in the league for SI, while averaging 24 possessions.
Players in front of him for SI that year: Jobe, GAJ, Swan, Stevie J, Boomer, Pav, Buddy, Roughead, N Riewoldt, Beams, T Cloke.
Players behind him: Cyril, Black, Pendlebury, Selwood, S Mitchell, J Riewoldt.
He was 22 years old at the start of that season.

He had a dominant period 2016-2020. Then in 2021 he got a lacerated kidney, lost 15kg as he was quite unwell from the injury, and took 18 months to bounce back. So a bit like Hird, he's had 2 years out of the game or recovering from injury.

He was dominant 2014-15 also. Across those 2 seasons averaged 25.7 touches, 1.13 goals and 6.8 SI’s per game and got 34 Brownlow votes. Was also AA squad both years.

As a comparison and at a similar age Rozee has played a mid-fwd role in 2022-23 and was an AA selection both years, averaging 24.6, 0.8 goals and 6.5 SI’s with 35 Brownlow votes.

Then Martin’s first 4 x seasons were 2010-13, so how did he start his career compared to a few modern day contemporaries and their first 4 x seasons ?

Disposals:
*Martin 22.27
Neale 22.27
Pendles 21.22
Danger 14.97
GAJ 14.72

Goals:
GAJ 1.27
Danger 1.11
*Martin 1.05
Pendles 0.6
Neale 0.51

SI’s (only 2 x players with those stats)
*Martin 7.23
Neale 4.72

Inside 50’s:
*Martin 3.99
GAJ 3.42
Pendles 2.71
Danger 2.48
Neale 2.27

Contested Poss:
Neale 9.56
Danger 8.41
*Martin 8.37
Pendles 8.07
GAJ 8.04

Clearances:
Neale 4.01
*Martin 3.58
Pendles 3.19
Danger 3.08
GAJ 2.1

Coaches votes:
*Martin 1.58
Neale 1.14
Pendles 0.99
Danger 0.58

Brownlow votes:
*Martin 0.45
Pendles 0.29
Neale 0.26
Danger 0.14
GAJ 0.11

So it’s fair to say Martin’s first 4 seasons were vastly superior to the first 4 seasons of Neale, GAJ, Danger and Pendles.

Then his 5th and 6th seasons were AA squad averaging 25 touches and 1.13 goals per game with 34 Brownlow votes.

Then his 7th season was 2016 where he was 3rd in the Brownlow and coaches votes and made AA.

Then came 2017-2020.

Then 2021 and 2022 were injury and mental health affected.

Then 2023 when fit he averaged 23 touches, 1.25 goals, 7.7 score involvements and made AA squad and finished 2nd in B&F.

So outside of 2017-20 he has still been elite almost every single season.


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