AFL Team of the 21st Century (Rolling)

[Seeds]

Sadly, Selwoods career has been severely clouded by his ducking. And rightly so. And he doesn't deserve to come close to this team. I'd take Bartel well before him. i.e. a guy who is hard and focused on the ball and not the free kick.

Selwood a harder and more courageous player then bartel. and a better player. There is a reason selwood was regularly voted the most courageous player in the competition by his peers.

you just dont like the fact he got frees and trying to wriggle out a nonsensical post hoc justification.

 

[RUNVS]

Selwood a harder and more courageous player then bartel. and a better player. There is a reason selwood was regularly voted the most courageous player in the competition by his peers.

you just dont like the fact he got frees and trying to wriggle out a nonsensical post hoc justification.

I have a theory that if Selwood did not bleed so easily he would not have been noticed as much. A butterfly could land on his temple and he would bleed.

 

[danster168]

Selwood a harder and more courageous player then bartel. and a better player. There is a reason selwood was regularly voted the most courageous player in the competition by his peers.

you just dont like the fact he got frees and trying to wriggle out a nonsensical post hoc justification.

Mate, no-one cares about 'most courageous' award. it means absolutely nothing. Theres probably 100 AFL players that go as hard as they physically can into a contest. Guys like Mitch Robinson, Viney, Bartel etc. The only reason why Selwood gets recognised is because he is a captain and an AFL golden child. But at the same time he is the biggest stager to have ever played and for the first 5 years of his career he was applauded for receiving high frees like a badge of honour but now it's just a reflection of his staging. A guy like Hodge is definitely more courageous. A guy who thinks only about the ball and not about the umpires whistle.

Selwood isn't close to making this team.

 

[PhatBoy]

Sadly, Selwoods career has been severely clouded by his ducking. And rightly so. And he doesn't deserve to come close to this team. I'd take Bartel well before him. i.e. a guy who is hard and focused on the ball and not the free kick.

Maybe address this with someone who wants Selwood in the team

 

[PhatBoy]

Well name the players you are selecting as specialist forwards before Martin in an AA team from 2017 onwards. Say assuming they all have to play 90%+ game time forward….

He literally wouldn’t be the first specialist forward id pick for Richmond for starters

 

[juss]

Give me a spell PB, he wouldn’t have played more than 25% of his career as a forward, as shown by his career disposal average of 25 per match.

In case you missed it, when he has been stationed forward most of the game in a few finals he has absolutely torn top 4 teams to shreds. He actually averages almost 3 gaols + goal assists across all the 15 finals he has played despite spending more time in the midfield than forward.

To give you a comparison, your favourite forward Tom Hawkins has 65 goals + goal assists in 29 finals, at an average a huge class below Martin’s, and I cannot recall Hawkins playing midfield too often in his finals appearances. Lance Franklin averages about 3.7 goals + goal assists playing 100% forward across his 25 finals.

To just frank the argument a bit….this is Martin’s goals+goal assists in finals v teams who made a PF in that season:

4, 5, 4, 1(when clearly injured 2018 PF) 2, 6, 2, 2, 5(the last 3 in the reduced game time in 2020. His real average when fit and adjusting 2020 matches for time in probably 4 per game against the absolute best teams in the absolute biggest games. Hawkins averages about 2.2 in all finals including v teams who didn’t make top 4.

Add Martin's 6 goals and an assist in 2019 in an away final v Brisbane who finished 2nd on the ladder after the h&a season in what was a massive danger game for Richmond for good measure.

Loads of these performances are with bulk time in the midfield as well. Any team would be nuts to have him as a first choice forward. Who are you picking before Martin to play as a pure forward from 2017 onwards?

People are getting too caught up in the positions on the team sheet and not how they apply to the modern game. In this fictitious side Martin makes the team we know that, and he probably gets named on the HFF. It doesn't matter if he's the best or not best specialist anything, he gets picked there based on the eliteness of his performances in his hybrid mid/forward role. He plays a front half midfielder/ roaming forward role, so the HFF seems the most appropriate. 25 touches a game and 291 goals over 260 game career with 202 Brownlow votes. 4x AA, finals performances the best in modern history.

I wouldn't get caught on semantics, that record puts him in the team.

 

[Seeds]

I have a theory that if Selwood did not bleed so easily he would not have been noticed as much. A butterfly could land on his temple and he would bleed.

Or its just he puts his head over the ball more then any other player in the comp.

 

[danster168]

Or its just he puts his head over the ball more then any other player in the comp.

yeah no. his courage is extremely overstated. No different to most inside mids.

 

[PhatBoy]

yeah no. his courage is extremely overstated. No different to most inside mids.

It’s everyone else that’s wrong, as ever.

 

[RUNVS]

yeah no. his courage is extremely overstated. No different to most inside mids.

Agreed. A lot of inside mids are tough but they don't bleed as easily so you don't notice it as much.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

People are getting too caught up in the positions on the team sheet and not how they apply to the modern game. In this fictitious side Martin makes the team we know that, and he probably gets named on the HFF. It doesn't matter if he's the best or not best specialist anything, he gets picked there based on the eliteness of his performances in his hybrid mid/forward role. He plays a front half midfielder/ roaming forward role, so the HFF seems the most appropriate. 25 touches a game and 291 goals over 260 game career with 202 Brownlow votes. 4x AA, finals performances the best in modern history.

I wouldn't get caught on semantics, that record puts him in the team.

I don’t think anyone is arguing Martin shouldn’t be in the team Juss.

The argument we are having is more around Dangerfield being picked HFF in the OP’s team. Part of his justification is Dangerfield was named AA HFF 5 times. Search as we might we cannot find any evidence to suggest Dangerfield has ever been in the best 7 forwards in the comp, so my argument is the OP naming him there as a spillover mid is wrong, because the AA selectors having named him there 5 times was wrong. He is in the best 4 inside mids in a given season(this seems to have happened 3 times) or he is not rightly in the AA team.

So the OP sought to turn my argument on its head by dragging Dustin Martin into the debate in this post:

By that logic, dusty was only among the best mids just twice in his career, once forward pocket and once on bench.

Does that mean you consider players who were AA starting onball more than twice, of which there are dozens, better than dusty?

My presumption would be the best 4 inside mids in the comp in a given season(in the view of the AA selectors) would be named in the team 3 on the ball and one on the bench. But of course we know they don’t name a team that is reflective of a real team in this way, and I have argued this discredits AA selection such that it may not be good evidence for a player’s inclusion into a Team of the Century.

As I responded before, there is a massive difference between naming Dangerfield HFF in the AA team on one hand, and Martin on the HFF in he AA team on the other hand. Dangerfield is a very ordinary forward who has been destroyed in that position in many finals. Martin is a marquee level forward who has destroyed the best teams in the biggest games in that position.

Martin as a pure mid, very good player, in most years the AA selectors have been able to find a few better, fair enough. If Martin could not play midfield, he would be one of if not the first picked forward in any representative team of the last 5 seasons. The evidence for this is when he has been stationed there in the biggest games against the best teams he has tended to tear them apart. For mine you cannot get any stronger evidence than that for a player’s acumen as a forward.

Regarding Martin forward, I am not sure what others think, but I would have thought if he was available as a pure forward right now and all the available forwards went into a draft for the 2022 season only, Martin is just about number one draft pick in that exercise. If he isn’t now then I think he would have been in the last 4-5 years. I would doubt Dangerfield would be in the top 25 picked in the same exercise.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

He literally wouldn’t be the first specialist forward id pick for Richmond for starters

So that I know we are measuring this the same way…..

You are building a team from 2017 onwards. Martin is available to be taken as a specialist forward only. It is a drafting situation. You have the number one draft pick. Who are you taking as a forward before Martin? Your number one pick is surely your first choice forward. What pick would you have Martin in this exercise?

Remembering that the claim of mine you initially responded to was that Martin would probably have been the most desirable forward in the AFL to have in your team in some recent seasons. You mocked the claim, so give us some substance. Where would Dustin Martin fit in the pecking order of forwards in recent seasons if he was a specialist forward only? Who are the specialist forwards you would draft before him?

 

[hutstar]

I don’t think anyone is arguing Martin shouldn’t be in the team Juss.

The argument we are having is more around Dangerfield being picked HFF in the OP’s team. Part of his justification is Dangerfield was named AA HFF 5 times. Search as we might we cannot find any evidence to suggest Dangerfield has ever been in the best 7 forwards in the comp, so my argument is the OP naming him there as a spillover mid is wrong, because the AA selectors having named him there 5 times was wrong. He is in the best 4 inside mids in a given season(this seems to have happened 3 times) or he is not rightly in the AA team.

So the OP sought to turn my argument on its head by dragging Dustin Martin into the debate in this post:




My presumption would be the best 4 inside mids in the comp in a given season(in the view of the AA selectors) would be named in the team 3 on the ball and one on the bench. But of course we know they don’t name a team that is reflective of a real team in this way, and I have argued this discredits AA selection such that it may not be good evidence for a player’s inclusion into a Team of the Century.

As I responded before, there is a massive difference between naming Dangerfield HFF in the AA team on one hand, and Martin on the HFF in he AA team on the other hand. Dangerfield is a very ordinary forward who has been destroyed in that position in many finals. Martin is a marquee level forward who has destroyed the best teams in the biggest games in that position.

Martin as a pure mid, very good player, in most years the AA selectors have been able to find a few better, fair enough. If Martin could not play midfield, he would be one of if not the first picked forward in any representative team of the last 5 seasons. The evidence for this is when he has been stationed there in the biggest games against the best teams he has tended to tear them apart. For mine you cannot get any stronger evidence than that for a player’s acumen as a forward.

Regarding Martin forward, I am not sure what others think, but I would have thought if he was available as a pure forward right now and all the available forwards went into a draft for the 2022 season only, Martin is just about number one draft pick in that exercise. If he isn’t now then I think he would have been in the last 4-5 years. I would doubt Dangerfield would be in the top 25 picked in the same exercise.

I think naming a player in any one position is outdated. I know it makes this exercise harder, but most good mids play multiple positions in every game. Teams actually play something like this, but with constant variations:
2 Rucks
1 Wing utility
1 Wing
1 small defender
2 attacking defenders
1 Third mid-sized defender
2 KPB
2 KPF
2 defensive forwards
1 Third mid-sized forward/back utility
2-4 Inside mids
3-5 inside/outside utilities
And of course it varies from team to team. Come up with a model where representation is roughly the right ratio. Then name it like it really could actually be.

ROUGHLY:

smD KPD 3rdD
Utility KPD AttD
WingU utility Wing
utility KPF DefF
3rdF KPF DefF

Ruck inM inM

utility
inM
AttD
Ruck

Just an idea, but let's face it, we're arguing over whether Danger or Dusty are HFF? Of course they're ****ing not, because the position hasn't existed for 20 years.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I think naming a player in any one position is outdated. I know it makes this exercise harder, but most good mids play multiple positions in every game. Teams actually play something like this, but with constant variations:
2 Rucks
1 Wing utility
1 Wing
1 small defender
2 attacking defenders
1 Third mid-sized defender
2 KPB
2 KPF
2 defensive forwards
1 Third mid-sized forward/back utility
2-4 Inside mids
3-5 inside/outside utilities
And of course it varies from team to team. Come up with a model where representation is roughly the right ratio. Then name it like it really could actually be.

ROUGHLY:

smD KPD 3rdD
Utility KPD AttD
WingU utility Wing
utility KPF DefF
3rdF KPF DefF

Ruck inM inM

utility
inM
AttD
Ruck

Just an idea, but let's face it, we're arguing over whether Danger or Dusty are HFF? Of course they're ******* not, because the position hasn't existed for 20 years.

I see sense in most of what you have written. But an alternative simpler formula for what teams mainly do currently is:

7 defenders(including 2 keys, a 3rd tall, and a mix of attacking and defensive running players)
4 inside mids
3 wingers
7 forwards(two keys, a 3rd tall, and a mix of attacking and defensive running players)
1 ruck.

Regarding the HFF being a defunct position, sure, there probably isn’t the John Northey, Wayne Johnstone, Bomber Hendrie style half forward flanker of the 60’s and 70’s who actually started on the point of the square at true HFF. We know there are some distinct roles down there still though. Some running players play high half forward, and some play closer to goal, and many play a mixture of those roles. But it any of those roles Martin is a weapon, and Dangerfield has been totally shut down in the biggest games when stationed there.

In any event we are not arguing over Dusty or Danger at HFF. There seems to be nobody arguing Dustin Martin isn’t rightfully a forward in the Team of the 21st Century. The argument is around the OP selecting Dangerfield as a forward in this team. I and plenty of others don’t think he is anywhere near a good enough forward to be named in the forward line. Do you?

 

[hutstar]

I see sense in most of what you have written. But an alternative simpler formula for what teams mainly do currently is:

7 defenders(including 2 keys, a 3rd tall, and a mix of attacking and defensive running players)
4 inside mids
3 wingers
7 forwards(two keys, a 3rd tall, and a mix of attacking and defensive running players)
1 ruck.

Regarding the HFF being a defunct position, sure, there probably isn’t the John Northey, Wayne Johnstone, Bomber Hendrie style half forward flanker of the 60’s and 70’s who actually started on the point of the square at true HFF. We know there are some distinct roles down there still though. Some running players play high half forward, and some play closer to goal, and many play a mixture of those roles. But it any of those roles Martin is a weapon, and Dangerfield has been totally shut down in the biggest games when stationed there.

In any event we are not arguing over Dusty or Danger at HFF. There seems to be nobody arguing Dustin Martin isn’t rightfully a forward in the Team of the 21st Century. The argument is around the OP selecting Dangerfield as a forward in this team. I and plenty of others don’t think he is anywhere near a good enough forward to be named in the forward line. Do you?

Nope, not even close.

 

[PhatBoy]

So that I know we are measuring this the same way…..

You are building a team from 2017 onwards. Martin is available to be taken as a specialist forward only. It is a drafting situation. You have the number one draft pick. Who are you taking as a forward before Martin? Your number one pick is surely your first choice forward. What pick would you have Martin in this exercise?

Remembering that the claim of mine you initially responded to was that Martin would probably have been the most desirable forward in the AFL to have in your team in some recent seasons. You mocked the claim, so give us some substance. Where would Dustin Martin fit in the pecking order of forwards in recent seasons if he was a specialist forward only? Who are the specialist forwards you would draft before him?

I pick Jack Riewoldt.

I take him
Every time.
I pick a tonne of them.

Johnson, both Riewoldts, Betts, Kennedy, Franklin, maybe even someone like lecras, Milne, a tonne of them.

I’m
Not gonna disregard careers worth of data and visual evidence because Martin drifts forward a few times a year to kick 3-4 goals.

Hell, if I wanted to pick a player to do that I’d just pick Gary Ablett Jr who’s a better footballer full stop.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I pick Jack Riewoldt.

I take him
Every time.
I pick a tonne of them.

Johnson, both Riewoldts, Betts, Kennedy, Franklin, maybe even someone like lecras, Milne, a tonne of them.

I’m
Not gonna disregard careers worth of data and visual evidence because Martin drifts forward a few times a year to kick 3-4 goals.

Hell, if I wanted to pick a player to do that I’d just pick Gary Ablett Jr who’s a better footballer full stop.

That is funny reducing Martin winning 3 Norm Smiths sand 3 Ayres Medals based largely on his play in the forward line to “drifts forward a few times a year to kick 3-4 goals.”

The absolute best finals opponents get all year to plan for this and they know Martin will be forward at crucial times and they have still had no answer to him when it has mattered.

Jack Riewoldt has been a terrific forward and obviously you need key targets, but I don’t think anyone in their right mind is taking Riewoldt/any other available key forward before Martin in a hypothetical draft for specialist forward positions in recent years. There are other players around you could get who could play Riewoldt’s role almost as well as him. But it is only now Petracca is entering his prime that another player has emerged who can play the mid sized forward role anywhere near the level Martin has produced in recent seasons. And it seems pretty clear that this role has been vital in breaking open big games against strong opponents.

So I think you just have Martin’s value as a forward wrong.

 

[PhatBoy]

That is funny reducing Martin winning 3 Norm Smiths sand 3 Ayres Medals based largely on his play in the forward line to “drifts forward a few times a year to kick 3-4 goals.”

The absolute best finals opponents get all year to plan for this and they know Martin will be forward at crucial times and they have still had no answer to him when it has mattered.

Jack Riewoldt has been a terrific forward and obviously you need key targets, but I don’t think anyone in their right mind is taking Riewoldt/any other available key forward before Martin in a hypothetical draft for specialist forward positions in recent years. There are other players around you could get who could play Riewoldt’s role almost as well as him. But it is only now Petracca is entering his prime that another player has emerged who can play the mid sized forward role anywhere near the level Martin has produced in recent seasons. And it seems pretty clear that this role has been vital in breaking open big games against strong opponents.

So I think you just have Martin’s value as a forward wrong.

Who cares what games they were in. Johnson kicked 4 and had 23 in a grand final. He kicked 4 and had 15 in a grand final.

Martin himself may well be the first player picked for a team like this.

But if someone tells me ‘you have to pick a player to play as a forward’ I’m not picking a guy based on a handful of games when there are other players who have done it 50-100 times. It’s lunacy to suggest on potential that he is better than these other guys.

At one point Paul Chapman had a streak in finals (one game aside where he got injured early and didn’t return that went:

21 touches, 4 goals, 2 goal assists
22 touches, 1 goal
16 touches, 2 goals
26 touches, 5 goals, 1 goal assist
26 touches, 3 goals, 1 goal assist
26 touches, 1 goal, 1 goal assist
35 touches, 1 goal, 1 goal assist

Across those games he’s averaging 2.4 goals a game, a touch under an assist per game, and nearly 25 disposals.

3 of those games were grand finals, 3 were prelims. Hell if I wanted I could go back two more games and include a 17 touch, 5 goal effort.

I don’t think you’ll find anyone saying that youd pick Chapman as a specialist permanent forward ahead of the elite ones who have spent their careers doing that.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Who cares what games they were in. Johnson kicked 4 and had 23 in a grand final. He kicked 4 and had 15 in a grand final.

Martin himself may well be the first player picked for a team like this.

But if someone tells me ‘you have to pick a player to play as a forward’ I’m not picking a guy based on a handful of games when there are other players who have done it 50-100 times. It’s lunacy to suggest on potential that he is better than these other guys.

At one point Paul Chapman had a streak in finals (one game aside where he got injured early and didn’t return that went:

21 touches, 4 goals, 2 goal assists
22 touches, 1 goal
16 touches, 2 goals
26 touches, 5 goals, 1 goal assist
26 touches, 3 goals, 1 goal assist
26 touches, 1 goal, 1 goal assist
35 touches, 1 goal, 1 goal assist

Across those games he’s averaging 2.4 goals a game, a touch under an assist per game, and nearly 25 disposals.

3 of those games were grand finals, 3 were prelims. Hell if I wanted I could go back two more games and include a 17 touch, 5 goal effort.

I don’t think you’ll find anyone saying that youd pick Chapman as a specialist permanent forward ahead of the elite ones who have spent their careers doing that.

I for one have argued Chapman is genuinely in the running for a small forward spot in this team so I don’t know what you are on about. Chapman’s achievements doesn’t in any way diminish Dusty’s claims to being selected as a small/mid sized forward in this team on merit, excluding his midfield achievements. You seem to be arguing Martin is in the team, but not as a mid, but also specialist small forwards have better claims than him to a small forward position.

Where are you picking him and using him in your team precisely?

Your sentence highlighted above illustrates the error in your thinking about this, imo.

Martin has been deployed in a forward role in a critical mass of the biggest games you can play against the best of opposition to devastating effect. His strike rate of tearing big games apart in this role would far outweigh a player “doing it 50-100 times” in his career from 250 matches against a wider selection of opponents that on balance would be way weaker, unless those players also had a similar strike rate in the biggest games. Martin in his peak games in big finals has AVERAGED around 4 goals+goal assists. Which small forwards have done better than that 50-100 times in their careers exactly?

Well, Eddie Betts got 4 or more goals + goals assists in 96 of his 350 games. A bit better strike rate than one in every four games he played. I am going to guess that no other specialist small forward in history has beaten that, certainly not in the AFL era, or got near it. Betts has 46 goals+goal assists in 13 finals but only every played near goal in those games. Betts got 4 or more goals+goals assists in 8 of his 13 finals. This is very high for a small forward.

Martin has 44 goals + goal assists from his 15 finals. But has spent most of his time away from goals overall. So his strike rate when forward would appear to be roughly double that of Betts, who is incredibly prolific. Martin has 4 or more goals + goal assists in 6 of his 15 finals but had a couple of shortened games in there, and of course quite a few when he barely spent time forward. Chapman for comparison got 4 or more goals + goals assists in 5 of his 22 finals. Two of those were in massive walkover wins in the 2007 finals series. If you have to pick a guy for a small mid forward goal to play in a single big game, are you picking Betts, Martin, or Chapman for that role. Of those 3, I am going:

1 Martin(without hesitation)
2 Betts
3 Chapman

But in any event I would have Cyril Rioli before Chapman.

Note, Chapman across his whole career averaged under 2.14 goals+goals assists and 18.5 disposals across his 22 finals. Martin averages 2.93 goals+goal assists and 22.5 disposals across all his 15 finals. They are not even in the same hemisphere. Chapman I thought was a fantastic player, but you have had to do some serious contortions with his record, accumulated in much higher scoring team performances than Martin’s, to try to support your claim Martin’s achievements forward in finals are somehow insufficient to base my claim on.

 

[Seeds]

That is funny reducing Martin winning 3 Norm Smiths sand 3 Ayres Medals based largely on his play in the forward line to “drifts forward a few times a year to kick 3-4 goals.”

The absolute best finals opponents get all year to plan for this and they know Martin will be forward at crucial times and they have still had no answer to him when it has mattered.

Jack Riewoldt has been a terrific forward and obviously you need key targets, but I don’t think anyone in their right mind is taking Riewoldt/any other available key forward before Martin in a hypothetical draft for specialist forward positions in recent years. There are other players around you could get who could play Riewoldt’s role almost as well as him. But it is only now Petracca is entering his prime that another player has emerged who can play the mid sized forward role anywhere near the level Martin has produced in recent seasons. And it seems pretty clear that this role has been vital in breaking open big games against strong opponents.

So I think you just have Martin’s value as a forward wrong.

Lol. Geelong put kolo on martin in the 2019 grand final.

not henry or blicavs or stewart or henderson. But effing kolo.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Cyril shouldnt even make the seconds team. Only kicked over 40 goals in a season twice and not once over 50 despite being in the dominant team in the land and never playing up the ground. Poor finals record also doesnt help him.

small/medium fowards ahead of him include betts, s johnson, chapman, akermanis, brad johnson, star mids resting foward, d. Martin.

HAHAHAHAHA Cyril is arguably the best small fwd of all time. "Didn't play up the ground" is the biggest shit comment ever.

 

[danster168]

It’s everyone else that’s wrong, as ever.

huh? literally the guy after me agreed. And 2 others. Take your Geelong hat off. Selwood's courage is good. But is he more courageous than Viney, Mitch Robinson, Ward, Steele, Sam Walsh, Luke Parker, C.Warner, Vlastuin, Rowell, Ed.Curnow, Z.Jones, Taylor Adams, Nathan Murphy, B.Keays,R.Sloane, C.Zurhaar etc.? No. When's the last time you say these guys back out of a contest? There's probably 50 more guys that go just as hard as Selwood if not harder.

Selwood just bleeds easily and is basically just a media puppy who refuse time and time again to acknowledge his staging even though the majority of AFL fans despise him for this.

 

[PhatBoy]

I for one have argued Chapman is genuinely in the running for a small forward spot in this team so I don’t know what you are on about. Chapman’s achievements doesn’t in any way diminish Dusty’s claims to being selected as a small/mid sized forward in this team on merit, excluding his midfield achievements. You seem to be arguing Martin is in the team, but not as a mid, but also specialist small forwards have better claims than him to a small forward position.

Where are you picking him and using him in your team precisely?

Your sentence highlighted above illustrates the error in your thinking about this, imo.

Martin has been deployed in a forward role in a critical mass of the biggest games you can play against the best of opposition to devastating effect. His strike rate of tearing big games apart in this role would far outweigh a player “doing it 50-100 times” in his career from 250 matches against a wider selection of opponents that on balance would be way weaker, unless those players also had a similar strike rate in the biggest games. Martin in his peak games in big finals has AVERAGED around 4 goals+goal assists. Which small forwards have done better than that 50-100 times in their careers exactly?

Well, Eddie Betts got 4 or more goals + goals assists in 96 of his 350 games. A bit better strike rate than one in every four games he played. I am going to guess that no other specialist small forward in history has beaten that, certainly not in the AFL era, or got near it. Betts has 46 goals+goal assists in 13 finals but only every played near goal in those games. Betts got 4 or more goals+goals assists in 8 of his 13 finals. This is very high for a small forward.

Martin has 44 goals + goal assists from his 15 finals. But has spent most of his time away from goals overall. So his strike rate when forward would appear to be roughly double that of Betts, who is incredibly prolific. Martin has 4 or more goals + goal assists in 6 of his 15 finals but had a couple of shortened games in there, and of course quite a few when he barely spent time forward. Chapman for comparison got 4 or more goals + goals assists in 5 of his 22 finals. Two of those were in massive walkover wins in the 2007 finals series. If you have to pick a guy for a small mid forward goal to play in a single big game, are you picking Betts, Martin, or Chapman for that role. Of those 3, I am going:

1 Martin(without hesitation)
2 Betts
3 Chapman

But in any event I would have Cyril Rioli before Chapman.

Note, Chapman across his whole career averaged under 2.14 goals+goals assists and 18.5 disposals across his 22 finals. Martin averages 2.93 goals+goal assists and 22.5 disposals across all his 15 finals. They are not even in the same hemisphere. Chapman I thought was a fantastic player, but you have had to do some serious contortions with his record, accumulated in much high scoring team performances than Martin’s, to try to support your claim Martin’s achievements forward in finals are somehow insufficient to base my claim on.

1. I’m not arguing where he should be picked. I’m saying that the claim ‘he’d be the first player picked as a forward I’ is garbage.

2. Players do not simply get rated only and exclusively on their finals. If they were, Chapman easily makes this team and I’m not arguing that he should. Yes of course they are important. They are not the only deciding factor. If they were, Brad Ottens waltzes into this team.

I don’t see anyone picking him.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

1. I’m not arguing where he should be picked. I’m saying that the claim ‘he’d be the first player picked as a forward I’ is garbage.

2. Players do not simply get rated only and exclusively on their finals. If they were, Chapman easily makes this team and I’m not arguing that he should. Yes of course they are important. They are not the only deciding factor. If they were, Brad Ottens waltzes into this team.

I don’t see anyone picking him.

The comment I made wasn’t that Martin is the first forward picked in this team. My precise comment was:

"Martin would have probably been THE MOST DESIRABLE forward to have in your team in some years and would no doubt be in the best 7 forwards in the comp any time he was fully fit every year from 2017 onwards.”

You seem to be deliberately obtuse here, first scoffing at that very specific comment regarding the last 5 years, then later when called to support your remark, you are responding as if I had made a different comment. But I am happy to also say that, as an attacking mid/small forward option for the team of the century, I can’t think of anyone I would pick before Martin for that role. Unlike you I am more than happy to rest the case on his three totally dominant finals series, mostly recognised for his destructive deeds as a forward. If he did that once I would see your point no problem. Twice there might remain some small doubt. Three times, come on, he is a completely proven big game match winner in the role and I cannot imagine any better way to establish your credentials in a role than by repeatedly proving yourself a big game match winner in the role.

You are questioning my comments about where Martin sits as a forward, fair enough if you don’t rate him as highly as some other players there in the last 5 years. But so far you have come up with only Jack Riewoldt as a better forward in that time when pressed. You scoffed remember. So if you want to retain your credibility I think you need to come up with something a bit more substantial than:

- Jack Riewoldt has been better,
- you are backing unnamed players who play forward permanently over him, and
- Paul Chapman had a run of 7 finals where he did well.

 

[PhatBoy]

The comment I made wasn’t that Martin is the first forward picked in this team. My precise comment was:

"Martin would have probably been THE MOST DESIRABLE forward to have in your team in some years and would no doubt be in the best 7 forwards in the comp any time he was fully fit every year from 2017 onwards.”

You seem to be deliberately obtuse here, first scoffing at that very specific comment regarding the last 5 years, then later when called to support your remark, you are responding as if I had made a different comment. But I am happy to also say that, as an attacking mid/small forward option for the team of the century, I can’t think of anyone I would pick before Martin for that role. Unlike you I am more than happy to rest the case on his three totally dominant finals series, mostly recognised for his destructive deeds as a forward. If he did that once I would see your point no problem. Twice there might remain some small doubt. Three times, come on, he is a completely proven big game match winner in the role and I cannot imagine any better way to establish your credentials in a role than by repeatedly proving yourself a big game match winner in the role.

You are questioning my comments about where Martin sits as a forward, fair enough if you don’t rate him as highly as some other players there in the last 5 years. But so far you have come up with only Jack Riewoldt as a better forward in that time when pressed. You scoffed remember. So if you want to retain your credibility I think you need to come up with something a bit more substantial than:

- Jack Riewoldt has been better,
- you are backing unnamed players who play forward permanently over him, and
- Paul Chapman had a run of 7 finals where he did well.

Eddie Betts.
Lance Franklin.
Tom Hawkins.
Josh Kennedy
Jeremy Cameron
Gunston
Breust

There are a ton of players in that period who if someone said to me ‘who is the most desires forward you could put in a side’ I would name before Martin.

I just find it a very odd claim.