Danger best on ground at half time and was injured late in the second qtr and spent large chunks of the second half up foward as a result. we are only guessing as to how injured he was.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
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It must have been a shocking injury, because there are still search parties out trying to find where he went missing in the second half, strangely, like he has in all 3 finals v the Tigers in recent years.
curnow inferno
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doesnt even deserve a response but here goes..
firstly unlike woewodin, goodes also was all australian (ruck) that year, won his club bnf that year too.
secondly, goodes would make it into this team for a lot of people regardless of position. he is not getting picked as a ruck but moreso as a utility to back up ruck. gawn has proven he can play 90% game time in ruck and dominate. goodes would just be the back up ruck while predominantly a champion forward who can go through midfield too. not too many teams who pick 2 specialist rucks in starting 22 so the point of top 30 rucks is so completely irrelevant, the biggest weapon is being able to play multiple positions.
what an insult to compare to woewodin..
curnow inferno
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To be honest the biggest 50/50 call I had was gawn vs cox. in the end, i decided the thing that tipped in to gawn's favour just so slightly was that at his best gawn was arguably the best player in the competition and even won the most important individual award, the coaches mvp as well as his exceptional performances this finals series on top of being the best captain of this season. whereas cox was consistently elite and the dominant ruckman for a longer period, cox has 1 extra AA. Right here right now its a very tough call. Cox was also brilliant in 2006 grand final. If gawn can have 2 or 3 more elite seasons he could put it to bed.
I have no problem with goodes making the team. Just not as a ruck. Did he even fill in ruck in the last 10 seasons of his career?
in his brownlow year only averaged 12 hitouts per game. It wasnt his ruck work that won him the brownlow.
over his career he averaged 3 hitouts per game. In his last 10 seasons he only averaged only 1 hitout per match. He was not even the swan back up ruck. So how could he be the back up ruck in the best team of the past twenty years when he wasnt even the back up ruck in the team he played in?
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Firstly, thanks for your detailed reply. We have different opinions and a different way of approaching this but its an interesting discussion.
Addressing your first point, I am actually a bit offended that you truly believe Petracca is already ahead of the likes of Harvey, Black, Ricciuto and Mitchell.
Petracca has had 2 elite seasons in his career so far (and didn't win any major awards such as the Coaches award, MVP or Brownlow as he was not the best player in the comp in either of those seasons). His finals series and Norm Smith were something else (as you mentioned) but I'll get to that in more detail later. Compare that to Harvey for example, who was the undisputed best player in the comp for at least 2 years when he won back to back Brownlows, MVP's, back to back B&F's and swept every media award but continued to be elite for nearly all of his 350+ games. He won 8 AA's, 4 B&F's and went head to head with games best mids (Hird, Crawford, etc) and usually torched them. Black won 3 flags, played 300+ games, won a Brownlow, a Norm Smith, 3 AA's and 3 B&F's (including 2 in premiership years in a threepeat side that is arguably the strongest in history). Mitchell has 5 B&F's in a 4 flag side, 3 AA's, 300+ games, a Brownlow, captained a flag and is one of the best finals players in history. Ricciuto has 8 AA's, 3 B&F's, a Brownlow, etc, etc. Petracca has had 2 great years and won 1 B&F, 2 AA's and a Norm Smith. In other words, it's just too early to include him IMO. I fully expect he (and the likes og Bontempelli, OLiver, etc to come in contention for these sides in 5 years time). I mean, at the end of 2010, Goddard was discussed as the best player in the comp after a good season, some great finals and a huge performance in the first GF. However, Goddard didn't kick on and continue at that level and would not make this side if I did 10 alternates. Petraaca needs to keep his current level for at least 5 more years to truly compare to those aforementioned greats IMO.
As amazing as he was, even the idea that Petracca's finals series was clearly more dominant than anything the others produced in their career is not right for me. For example, Petracca's 39 disposal Grand Final equalled Black's record, set way back in 2003 when getting 30 disposals was an uncommon and noteworthy accomplishment. Black had 39 disposals, 25 contested, 9 clearances, 9 tackles, a goal and an assist playing 100% of the game through the midfield for one of the best 5 Norm Smith performances of all time. Petracca's GF may have been better but its debatable at best.
or what about Mitchell's 2015 finals series that went like this:
QF - 35 disposals (#1 on ground), 10 clearances (#1 on ground), 3 tackles and an assist (655 metres gained) to be easily Hawthorn's best player (in a loss)
SF - 33 disposals (#1 on ground), 4 clearances, 2 tackles to be best on ground.
PF - 35 disposals (#1 on ground), 5 clearances (#2 on ground), 3 tackles and an assist to again be best on ground.
GF - 34 disposals (#1 on ground), 6 clearances (#1 on ground), 4 tackles and 2 assists to finish runner up in Norm Smith voting with 40% of the judges having him best on ground
It is still far and away the most disposals in a finals series and his ball use was elite, with high score involvements and very high efficiency, including 80% in the Grand Final (which is ridiculously high for an inside mid in a high pressure game).
Petracca's finals series was obviously also fantastic and right up there but he was 'only' adjudged BOG in the Grand Final with that honour going to Gawn in the PF and Oliver in the QF. Petracca's may have been the best of the lot but it certainly wasn't incomparable such that his 1 finals series propels him ahead of players that dominated finals for more than a decade.
Anyway, that's all I have time for - I'll answer other parts of your post later
.
Firstly, thanks for your detailed reply. We have different opinions and a different way of approaching this but its an interesting discussion.
Addressing your first point, I am actually a bit offended that you truly believe Petracca is already ahead of the likes of Harvey, Black, Ricciuto and Mitchell.
Petracca has had 2 elite seasons in his career so far (and didn't win any major awards such as the Coaches award, MVP or Brownlow as he was not the best player in the comp in either of those seasons). His finals series and Norm Smith were something else (as you mentioned) but I'll get to that in more detail later. Compare that to Harvey for example, who was the undisputed best player in the comp for at least 2 years when he won back to back Brownlows, MVP's, back to back B&F's and swept every media award but continued to be elite for nearly all of his 350+ games. He won 8 AA's, 4 B&F's and went head to head with games best mids (Hird, Crawford, etc) and usually torched them. Black won 3 flags, played 300+ games, won a Brownlow, a Norm Smith, 3 AA's and 3 B&F's (including 2 in premiership years in a threepeat side that is arguably the strongest in history). Mitchell has 5 B&F's in a 4 flag side, 3 AA's, 300+ games, a Brownlow, captained a flag and is one of the best finals players in history. Ricciuto has 8 AA's, 3 B&F's, a Brownlow, etc, etc. Petracca has had 2 great years and won 1 B&F, 2 AA's and a Norm Smith. In other words, it's just too early to include him IMO. I fully expect he (and the likes og Bontempelli, OLiver, etc to come in contention for these sides in 5 years time). I mean, at the end of 2010, Goddard was discussed as the best player in the comp after a good season, some great finals and a huge performance in the first GF. However, Goddard didn't kick on and continue at that level and would not make this side if I did 10 alternates. Petraaca needs to keep his current level for at least 5 more years to truly compare to those aforementioned greats IMO.
As amazing as he was, even the idea that Petracca's finals series was clearly more dominant than anything the others produced in their career is not right for me. For example, Petracca's 39 disposal Grand Final equalled Black's record, set way back in 2003 when getting 30 disposals was an uncommon and noteworthy accomplishment. Black had 39 disposals, 25 contested, 9 clearances, 9 tackles, a goal and an assist playing 100% of the game through the midfield for one of the best 5 Norm Smith performances of all time. Petracca's GF may have been better but its debatable at best.
or what about Mitchell's 2015 finals series that went like this:
QF - 35 disposals (#1 on ground), 10 clearances (#1 on ground), 3 tackles and an assist (655 metres gained) to be easily Hawthorn's best player (in a loss)
SF - 33 disposals (#1 on ground), 4 clearances, 2 tackles to be best on ground.
PF - 35 disposals (#1 on ground), 5 clearances (#2 on ground), 3 tackles and an assist to again be best on ground.
GF - 34 disposals (#1 on ground), 6 clearances (#1 on ground), 4 tackles and 2 assists to finish runner up in Norm Smith voting with 40% of the judges having him best on ground
It is still far and away the most disposals in a finals series and his ball use was elite, with high score involvements and very high efficiency, including 80% in the Grand Final (which is ridiculously high for an inside mid in a high pressure game).
Petracca's finals series was obviously also fantastic and right up there but he was 'only' adjudged BOG in the Grand Final with that honour going to Gawn in the PF and Oliver in the QF. Petracca's may have been the best of the lot but it certainly wasn't incomparable such that his 1 finals series propels him ahead of players that dominated finals for more than a decade.
Anyway, that's all I have time for - I'll answer other parts of your post later
Look forward to your further response.
I accept what you are saying about Harvey, Mitchell, Black, brilliant players all of them and proven highly consistent performers over long careers. I have no trouble with any of them being selected. My preference for Petracca isn’t a career v career achievement comparison of course. On that score he is way behind those guys as you have demonstrated. My preference for him is if I am picking a team to win a game of footy this week based on the best I have seen from all of those players I am taking Petracca. He is just tougher to stop, certainly when compared to Mitchell and Black. Harvey also very tough to stop because of his constant burst running, but Petracca would be more damaging than him disposal wise without a doubt.
I guess in my assessment of players I am quite heavily biased towards players like Petracca, who can burst from congestion and do enormous damage with the ball. When a player that can do that also proves he can perform at his best in finals and takes his team to a Premiership, I don’t need to see any more to know I want him in my team. People were(probably understandably, but wrongly) laughing at me on here in 2020 for writing I rated him the best player in the game, so I am certainly not going to be moderating my view on him after the 2021 season. Just quietly his mate Oliver is no mug either.
Good post, just a point of clarification.
Martin was AA in 2020 and has been 4 times, not 3.
Thanks for that, I have edited my post accordingly.
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If he keeps up his current level then yes he could very well takes Cox's mantle.
curnow inferno
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By that logic, dusty was only among the best mids just twice in his career, once forward pocket and once on bench.
Does that mean you consider players who were AA starting onball more than twice, of which there are dozens, better than dusty?
Toump Ass
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OUT: ALISTAIR CLARKSON
IN: SIMON GOODWIN
IN: SIMON GOODWIN
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Sorry what?
F*** this has just reached stupid proportions now.
Selwood has a resume that includes many, many fantastic finals games.
Dangerfield less so, but additionally this narrative that he just shits himself is utterly stupid.
What Gary Rohan does in finals is shit himself. His already relatively low statistical output drops to rock
Bottom, and his ‘greater than the numbers’ performances of the regular season are nowhere to be found.
Does Dangerfield, or Selwood for that matter, have a Hodge or Martin-Esque penchant for improving almost every time they play a big game?
No.
Do they routinely actually play noticeably poorly in finals?
Absolutely not
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To be clear, I don’t judge much by what the AA selectors do.
But if you took their selections to be definitive then sure, as a pure inside mid, Dusty’s selection in the midfield twice should mean he is considered in the best 4 inside mids only twice, or possibly 3 times given he was selected on the bench once.
The massive difference between the AA joke that is Rodney Dangerfield and Martin being selected as a forward in the AA team is obvious. Dangerfield has never done anything to suggest he is in the best 7 forwards in the game at any time, let alone 5 times over. Martin would have probably been THE MOST DESIRABLE forward to have in your team in some years and would no doubt be in the best 7 forwards in the comp any time he was fully fit every year from 2017 onwards.
I mean are you EVER selecting Dangerfield before Martin as a forward?
Do YOU think Dangerfield’s 8 AA selections indicate he has been a better player than Martin, who has been chosen just 4 times? Go to the Danger v Dusty thread and see how you go arguing that.
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In 260 attempts martin has kicked more than 4 goals in a game 4 times.
Worthy of a team like this? Of course he is.
The most desirable forward the have in your team? Please.
From where I sit Selwood was a really good finals player until he got past his best around 29-30yo, from when he just hasn’t been as good full stop.
Dangerfield’s finals performances if measured as “A Player” look fine. Dangerfield’s finals performance if measured for a team like this, where he needs to be seen as his team’s best or second best player to get anywhere near this team, are way way short of the mark, in fact they are disappointing. So it depends where you set the bar. But on this thread, he is a relatively poor finals performer, especially when you look at Preliminary or Grand Finals or games against teams who made Preliminary or Grand Finals. In other words, the stronger half of finals teams, the games that really matter.
Give me a spell PB, he wouldn’t have played more than 25% of his career as a forward, as shown by his career disposal average of 25 per match.
In case you missed it, when he has been stationed forward most of the game in a few finals he has absolutely torn top 4 teams to shreds. He actually averages almost 3 gaols + goal assists across all the 15 finals he has played despite spending more time in the midfield than forward.
To give you a comparison, your favourite forward Tom Hawkins has 65 goals + goal assists in 29 finals, at an average a huge class below Martin’s, and I cannot recall Hawkins playing midfield too often in his finals appearances. Lance Franklin averages about 3.7 goals + goal assists playing 100% forward across his 25 finals.
To just frank the argument a bit….this is Martin’s goals+goal assists in finals v teams who made a PF in that season:
4, 5, 4, 1(when clearly injured 2018 PF) 2, 6, 2, 2, 5(the last 3 in the reduced game time in 2020. His real average when fit and adjusting 2020 matches for time in probably 4 per game against the absolute best teams in the absolute biggest games. Hawkins averages about 2.2 in all finals including v teams who didn’t make top 4.
Add Martin's 6 goals and an assist in 2019 in an away final v Brisbane who finished 2nd on the ladder after the h&a season in what was a massive danger game for Richmond for good measure.
Loads of these performances are with bulk time in the midfield as well. Any team would be nuts to have him as a first choice forward. Who are you picking before Martin to play as a pure forward from 2017 onwards?
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Who cares? You’re measuring him against players - one of the yardsticks being one of his own teammates - who play their entire careers there and are always manned by the best defenders the opposition can muster and making a claim like that? Ridiculous. Absolutely Martin is a good enough player to be good at pretty much any role he takes on however saying he would in some seasons be the most desirable forward in the league is a ridiculous call.
Hawkins is a tall power forward who sets up more goals than most of his counterparts despite his size and the fact that he isn’t a midfielder in any capacity.
Martin creates a lot of goals? Elite midfielder regularly creates opportunities for others when he has the ball on the forward half of the ground. Huge if true.
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FB: Scarlett Rance S.Burgoyne
HB: Hodge J.Gibson Mcleod
C: Aker Voss D.Martin
HF: S.Johnson Riewoldt Franklin
FF: Chapman Lloyd C. Rioli
Foll: D.Cox, G.Ablett Jnr, Judd
Int: Gawn, Riccuito, Goodes, Buckley
Sub: Milne
* I've gone with Josh Gibson. Yes, only 1 AA but he was a 2 time BnF fairest in one of the greatest teams of all time. A lock for me.
* Danger doesn't make it for me. His foot skills aren't great and I don't need his pace when I've got Judd and Ablett in the middle. And he's not needed forward where it's stacked with dead-eyes in Rioli, Chapman and S.Johnson.
* People excluding Cyril are obsessed about goals and nothing else. His defensive pressure is elite and could change momentum better than anyone in this team. He is a lock. In a team with Lloyd and Franklin, we don't need 5 goals from Cyril.
HB: Hodge J.Gibson Mcleod
C: Aker Voss D.Martin
HF: S.Johnson Riewoldt Franklin
FF: Chapman Lloyd C. Rioli
Foll: D.Cox, G.Ablett Jnr, Judd
Int: Gawn, Riccuito, Goodes, Buckley
Sub: Milne
* I've gone with Josh Gibson. Yes, only 1 AA but he was a 2 time BnF fairest in one of the greatest teams of all time. A lock for me.
* Danger doesn't make it for me. His foot skills aren't great and I don't need his pace when I've got Judd and Ablett in the middle. And he's not needed forward where it's stacked with dead-eyes in Rioli, Chapman and S.Johnson.
* People excluding Cyril are obsessed about goals and nothing else. His defensive pressure is elite and could change momentum better than anyone in this team. He is a lock. In a team with Lloyd and Franklin, we don't need 5 goals from Cyril.
Well name the players you are selecting as specialist forwards before Martin in an AA team from 2017 onwards. Say assuming they all have to play 90%+ game time forward….
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Power Raid
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a quick scan of his stats and he's never picked up a brownlow vote in any one of his finals appearances
Burgoyne was only an AA once. I agree he was a very good player but he isn't a "should be in the best team of the last 22 years" sort of player. Not sure about Voss either, not for ability but because a significant portion of his best playing days happened before the 21st century.
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Yeah fair call. I'm not super excited about Burgoyne. But I'm less enthused about Enright, McGovern, McLeod.
Voss I think gets in there. Captain of the best team ever assembled (imo) during 2000-2004. Also, he's in there for leadership. I believe he would be the captain of this team.
Voss played 161 games in the 2000s. In the 2000s he was twice named the Leigh Matthews medallist (players most valuable player), 3 times AA, 3 x B&F (twice in a premiership team), and 3 x premiership captain.
Over half his playing career was in the 2000s and it was incredibly distinguished and duly rewarded with appropriate accolades.
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Sadly, Selwoods career has been severely clouded by his ducking. And rightly so. And he doesn't deserve to come close to this team. I'd take Bartel well before him. i.e. a guy who is hard and focused on the ball and not the free kick.
