News AFL to overhaul the draft, discuss changes to Academy and FS bid matching

[giantroo]

 

[stallon]

This guy has a Ph.D in complaining.

Only way to get it fixed is to whinge. Squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say

 

[Elixuh]

This guy has a Ph.D in complaining.

Instead of complaining about Brisbane, maybe St Kilda should try and model itself on us instead of continually trading in C grade fringe players and hiring a coach that plays a brand of football that isn't commercially attractive to the networks. Saints are propped up as much as the Northern clubs to remain financially competitive.

 

[stallon]

Instead of complaining about Brisbane, maybe St Kilda should try and model itself on us instead of continually trading in C grade fringe players and hiring a coach that plays a brand of football that isn't commercially attractive to the networks. Saints are propped up as much as the Northern clubs to remain financially competitive.

Hard to model against when they dont operate under the same rules as the northern clubs, and clearly they like North and the Dogs arent destination clubs largely due to the size of the clubs. The clubs dont have the opportunity to catch up to a Collingwood or Carlton because those bigger clubs will always get priority in scheduling/fixturing and exposure.

 

[Pencil case]

Only way to get it fixed is to whinge. Squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say

It’s the best part of our sport. There’s nothing to fix. Perhaps the academies are a bit much up North, if Suns can pull their sh** together.

 

[Elixuh]

Hard to model against when they dont operate under the same rules as the northern clubs, and clearly they like North and the Dogs arent destination clubs largely due to the size of the clubs. The clubs dont have the opportunity to catch up to a Collingwood or Carlton because those bigger clubs will always get priority in scheduling/fixturing and exposure.

Of course you can.

Step 1: go to the draft for several years and draft well - Saints haven't done this for a long time.
Step 2: trade in A-grade players to complement list - Saints haven't done this for a long time.
Step 3: bring in undervalued perennially injured types and FAs - Saints haven't made it to this step.

The honest answer is that the Saints president is correct. There are too many Melbourne clubs which means it will never be commercially advantageous to the AFL to have the small VFL clubs strong at the same time or for long periods.

 

[Dogflogger]

Of course you can.

Step 1: go to the draft for several years and draft well - Saints haven't done this for a long time.
Step 2: trade in A-grade players to complement list - Saints haven't done this for a long time.
Step 3: bring in undervalued perennially injured types and FAs - Saints haven't made it to this step.

The honest answer is that the Saints president is correct. There are too many Melbourne clubs which means it will never be commercially advantageous to the AFL to have the small VFL clubs strong at the same time or for long periods.

totally gloss over how step 2 and 3 is harder for the small clubs consistently.

 

[Elixuh]

totally gloss over how step 2 and 3 is harder for the small clubs consistently.

Melbourne did it. Won a flag.

Dogs did it. Won a flag.

All on the back of an initial period of quality drafting. St Kilda should try it.

 

[Dogflogger]

Melbourne did it. Won a flag.

Dogs did it. Won a flag.

All on the back of an initial period of quality drafting. St Kilda should try it.

no father sons in those teams?

 

[Elixuh]

no father sons in those teams?

Lol wait, so now that I've dispelled that myth you're now moving onto an argument that teams can't win flags unless they have a father son on the list.

The Dogs father sons were all high picks and some in the rookie draft for their 2016 flag. Has zero to do with what your president is referring to in his speech, ie top cream of the crop draft picks.

Next question.

 

[juddy_Like]

Melbourne did it. Won a flag.

Dogs did it. Won a flag.

All on the back of an initial period of quality drafting. St Kilda should try it.

Geez mate, its not like the Dees, Dogs or Saints have asked for a Priority Pick recently.

 

[Dogflogger]

Lol wait, so now that I've dispelled that myth you're now moving onto an argument that teams can't win flags unless they have a father son on the list.

The Dogs father sons were all high picks and some in the rookie draft for their 2016 flag. Has zero to do with what your president is referring to in his speech, ie top cream of the crop draft picks.

Next question.

what myth did you dispel? what argument was i making to begin with and what argument am i moving to?
what is this thread about?

 

[Elixuh]

what myth did you dispel? what argument was i making to begin with and what argument am i moving to?
what is this thread about?

Every reason why st Kilda can’t possibly win a flag.

 

[Suma Magic]

I think the steeping of the points curve and the reduction of the discount from 20% to 10% will help to reduce the significant advantage to teams that get lots of academy and/or father son players. Still not enough IMO, but its a decent start.

 

[brutus76]

St Kilda is complaining as all their champion past players only had daughters

 

[Mat Mann]

Of course you can.

Step 1: go to the draft for several years and draft well - Saints haven't done this for a long time.
Step 2: trade in A-grade players to complement list - Saints haven't done this for a long time.
Step 3: bring in undervalued perennially injured types and FAs - Saints haven't made it to this step.

The honest answer is that the Saints president is correct. There are too many Melbourne clubs which means it will never be commercially advantageous to the AFL to have the small VFL clubs strong at the same time or for long periods.

Step 1: go to the draft for several years and draft well - Saints haven't done this for a long time.
so We started drafting a lot better
2021: Nasiah wang-Mil Owens Windhaeger
2022: Philapou
2023: Wilson and Garcia

Step 2: trade in A-grade players to complement list - Saints haven't done this for a long time.
isn't so easy, We can throw cash all you want but players don't move for money, Brad Hill the best we can do atm

Step 3: bring in undervalued perennially injured types and FAs - Saints haven't made it to this step.
Cal Wilke 1 B&f 1 AA 1 AA Squad consecutive game record holder rookie raft
Jack Sinclair 2 B&F 2 AA Rookie draft
Tim Membrey 177 games delisted free agent
Rowan Marshall 1 AA squad Rookie draft
Sharman and Camaniti look promising mid-season and SPP selection

others
Jack Steele
Higgins
Crouch was very good for us but his knee cooked

there's taking responsibility which Bassat did, poor drafting, poor admin, poor culture etc etc, but the system is still broken. How can GC take 4 top 25 picks last year for essentially 1 pick and still improve their 2024 draft hand is how the system is broken, when teams below them can't have access to said players.

the AFL could have changed the rules this year but chose to allow its pets to get the free hits, yet a small melb club gets a high pick (JUH) and the rules are changed.

Does Bassat's rant change our future chances, probably not, but it sure doesn't do us any harm either. It seems to be those benefiting the most who are happiest to see it remain.

 

[Elixuh]

Step 1: go to the draft for several years and draft well - Saints haven't done this for a long time.
so We started drafting a lot better
2021: Nasiah wang-Mil Owens Windhaeger
2022: Philapou
2023: Wilson and Garcia

Step 2: trade in A-grade players to complement list - Saints haven't done this for a long time.
isn't so easy, We can throw cash all you want but players don't move for money, Brad Hill the best we can do atm

Step 3: bring in undervalued perennially injured types and FAs - Saints haven't made it to this step.
Cal Wilke 1 B&f 1 AA 1 AA Squad consecutive game record holder rookie raft
Jack Sinclair 2 B&F 2 AA Rookie draft
Tim Membrey 177 games delisted free agent
Rowan Marshall 1 AA squad Rookie draft
Sharman and Camaniti look promising mid-season and SPP selection

others
Jack Steele
Higgins
Crouch was very good for us but his knee cooked

there's taking responsibility which Bassat did, poor drafting, poor admin, poor culture etc etc, but the system is still broken. How can GC take 4 top 25 picks last year for essentially 1 pick and still improve their 2024 draft hand is how the system is broken, when teams below them can't have access to said players.

the AFL could have changed the rules this year but chose to allow its pets to get the free hits, yet a small melb club gets a high pick (JUH) and the rules are changed.

Does Bassat's rant change our future chances, probably not, but it sure doesn't do us any harm either. It seems to be those benefiting the most who are happiest to see it remain.

I agree those guys are a good start. We went to the draft and 8 players on Saturday were first round picks we drafted - not academy or FS related. How many over the past 3 years have been first round top end talent for the Saints? 2 or 3? Saints need to hit the draft for another 2-3 years and try to get as many first rounders as possible and hope they hit on the later picks as well.

Step 2 & 3 are difficult if not irrelevant until you create a nucleus through the draft and can sell a vision and plan, which the Saints haven't done. Otherwise the option is just to try to overpay to get people to come for $$$.

Also re step 2, Saints aren't going to attract talent treating their players like this. Terrible culture and decision-making.

 

[RUNVS]

Mentioned this before but

I would introduce a blind draft auction.

So instead of receiving picks at the end of the year teams receive points, eg, something like this

18th position - 4647 points
17th position - 4088 points
16th position - 3740 points
15th position - 3478 points
14th position - 3263 points
13th position - 3077 points
12th position - 2913 points
11th position - 2765 points
10th position - 2631 points
9th position - 2504 points
8th position - 2388 points
7th position - 2279 points
6th position - 2174 points
5th position - 2077 points
4th position - 1983 points
3rd position - 1894 points
2nd position - 1809 points
1st position - 1726 points

and in the trade period two teams can negotiate points for players, so lets go with Bolton. Richmond could say "Bolton is worth 1000 points, and Fremantle could argue, "we will not pay more than 712 points for him" and eventually they agree and say Bolton is worth 850 points or something like that, so Richmond get the 850 points and Fremantle get Bolton.

Then we have the draft which is a blind draft auction, so Andrew Dilon comes on stage and says "the bidding for pick 1 is now open"

Every team submits how many points they are willing to bid on pick 1, and also who they want to draft with pick 1 should they win the bid.

For instance

Richmond (3200 points) - Jagga Smith
West Coast (3250 points) - Harvey Langford
Adelaide (3400 points) - Jagga Smith

So lets say all teams bid, and then Dilon comes out and says "With 3400 points Adelaide have won pick 1, and have selected Jagga Smith"

Bidding for pick 2 is now open, and again, all the clubs bid and the team that is willing to pay the most gets pick 2, and the player they want.

When an academy player is selected, so lets say Fremantle bid 2816 points on Ashcroft, Dilon comes out and says "with 2816 points Fremantle have won pick 4 and have selected Father/Son selection Levi Ashcroft. Brisbane have 2 minutes to match"

and Brisbane have 2 minutes to match, and they have to select Ashcroft with 2816 points, just like Fremantle wanted to, they don't get a discount, they pay as much as the highest bidder is willing to pay, but they do get first rights.

To me that would be better.

Also a blind draft auction gives far many more options in how a team builds a list. Makes it easier for West Coast for instance to target Western Australians as they don't have to worry about reaching too much if they have pick 5 but there is a WA kid who is expected to go pick 11.

It changes the system from a barter system to a currency based system and makes it much fairer for everyone.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Mentioned this before but

I would introduce a blind draft auction.

So instead of receiving picks at the end of the year teams receive points, eg, something like this

18th position - 4647 points
17th position - 4088 points
16th position - 3740 points
15th position - 3478 points
14th position - 3263 points
13th position - 3077 points
12th position - 2913 points
11th position - 2765 points
10th position - 2631 points
9th position - 2504 points
8th position - 2388 points
7th position - 2279 points
6th position - 2174 points
5th position - 2077 points
4th position - 1983 points
3rd position - 1894 points
2nd position - 1809 points
1st position - 1726 points

and in the trade period two teams can negotiate points for players, so lets go with Bolton. Richmond could say "Bolton is worth 1000 points, and Fremantle could argue, "we will not pay more than 712 points for him" and eventually they agree and say Bolton is worth 850 points or something like that, so Richmond get the 850 points and Fremantle get Bolton.

Then we have the draft which is a blind draft auction, so Andrew Dilon comes on stage and says "the bidding for pick 1 is now open"

Every team submits how many points they are willing to bid on pick 1, and also who they want to draft with pick 1 should they win the bid.

For instance

Richmond (3200 points) - Jagga Smith
West Coast (3250 points) - Harvey Langford
Adelaide (3400 points) - Jagga Smith

So lets say all teams bid, and then Dilon comes out and says "With 3400 points Adelaide have won pick 1, and have selected Jagga Smith"

Bidding for pick 2 is now open, and again, all the clubs bid and the team that is willing to pay the most gets pick 2, and the player they want.

When an academy player is selected, so lets say Fremantle bid 2816 points on Ashcroft, Dilon comes out and says "with 2816 points Fremantle have won pick 4 and have selected Father/Son selection Levi Ashcroft. Brisbane have 2 minutes to match"

and Brisbane have 2 minutes to match, and they have to select Ashcroft with 2816 points, just like Fremantle wanted to, they don't get a discount, they pay as much as the highest bidder is willing to pay, but they do get first rights.

To me that would be better.

Also a blind draft auction gives far many more options in how a team builds a list. Makes it easier for West Coast for instance to target Western Australians as they don't have to worry about reaching too much if they have pick 5 but there is a WA kid who is expected to go pick 11.

It changes the system from a barter system to a currency based system and makes it much fairer for everyone.

1 Million up-votes.

It's so simple and easy to understand - still strongly advantages the wooden-spooner but also all but removes "tanking" as a discussion point (not tanking for a player, and the few extra hundred points not worth it if you can be outbid).

 

[RUNVS]

1 Million up-votes.

It's so simple and easy to understand - still strongly advantages the wooden-spooner but also all but removes "tanking" as a discussion point (not tanking for a player, and the few extra hundred points not worth it if you can be outbid).

It also makes trading so much easier too, as it is just agreeing on a points value, and is not a situation where player X is worth a pick inside the top 10 but the team that wants him only has pick 19.

 

[melanChronic]

It changes the system from a barter system to a currency based system and makes it much fairer for everyone.

Change your proposal to call the currency "Barassis" rather than "points" and the AFL will be all over it.

 

[melanChronic]

Mentioned this before but

I would introduce a blind draft auction.

So instead of receiving picks at the end of the year teams receive points, eg, something like this

18th position - 4647 points
17th position - 4088 points
16th position - 3740 points
15th position - 3478 points
14th position - 3263 points
13th position - 3077 points
12th position - 2913 points
11th position - 2765 points
10th position - 2631 points
9th position - 2504 points
8th position - 2388 points
7th position - 2279 points
6th position - 2174 points
5th position - 2077 points
4th position - 1983 points
3rd position - 1894 points
2nd position - 1809 points
1st position - 1726 points

and in the trade period two teams can negotiate points for players, so lets go with Bolton. Richmond could say "Bolton is worth 1000 points, and Fremantle could argue, "we will not pay more than 712 points for him" and eventually they agree and say Bolton is worth 850 points or something like that, so Richmond get the 850 points and Fremantle get Bolton.

Then we have the draft which is a blind draft auction, so Andrew Dilon comes on stage and says "the bidding for pick 1 is now open"

Every team submits how many points they are willing to bid on pick 1, and also who they want to draft with pick 1 should they win the bid.

For instance

Richmond (3200 points) - Jagga Smith
West Coast (3250 points) - Harvey Langford
Adelaide (3400 points) - Jagga Smith

So lets say all teams bid, and then Dilon comes out and says "With 3400 points Adelaide have won pick 1, and have selected Jagga Smith"

Bidding for pick 2 is now open, and again, all the clubs bid and the team that is willing to pay the most gets pick 2, and the player they want.

When an academy player is selected, so lets say Fremantle bid 2816 points on Ashcroft, Dilon comes out and says "with 2816 points Fremantle have won pick 4 and have selected Father/Son selection Levi Ashcroft. Brisbane have 2 minutes to match"

and Brisbane have 2 minutes to match, and they have to select Ashcroft with 2816 points, just like Fremantle wanted to, they don't get a discount, they pay as much as the highest bidder is willing to pay, but they do get first rights.

To me that would be better.

Also a blind draft auction gives far many more options in how a team builds a list. Makes it easier for West Coast for instance to target Western Australians as they don't have to worry about reaching too much if they have pick 5 but there is a WA kid who is expected to go pick 11.

It changes the system from a barter system to a currency based system and makes it much fairer for everyone.

Seriously though I do like the sound of this, but one query is how trading future points would work. Could you still have the points allotted in packets based on finishing order, and then if a club holds another club's future 2nd rounder, they get the points packet associated with that placing?

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Mentioned this before but

I would introduce a blind draft auction.

So instead of receiving picks at the end of the year teams receive points, eg, something like this

18th position - 4647 points
17th position - 4088 points
16th position - 3740 points
15th position - 3478 points
14th position - 3263 points
13th position - 3077 points
12th position - 2913 points
11th position - 2765 points
10th position - 2631 points
9th position - 2504 points
8th position - 2388 points
7th position - 2279 points
6th position - 2174 points
5th position - 2077 points
4th position - 1983 points
3rd position - 1894 points
2nd position - 1809 points
1st position - 1726 points

and in the trade period two teams can negotiate points for players, so lets go with Bolton. Richmond could say "Bolton is worth 1000 points, and Fremantle could argue, "we will not pay more than 712 points for him" and eventually they agree and say Bolton is worth 850 points or something like that, so Richmond get the 850 points and Fremantle get Bolton.

Then we have the draft which is a blind draft auction, so Andrew Dilon comes on stage and says "the bidding for pick 1 is now open"

Every team submits how many points they are willing to bid on pick 1, and also who they want to draft with pick 1 should they win the bid.

For instance

Richmond (3200 points) - Jagga Smith
West Coast (3250 points) - Harvey Langford
Adelaide (3400 points) - Jagga Smith

So lets say all teams bid, and then Dilon comes out and says "With 3400 points Adelaide have won pick 1, and have selected Jagga Smith"

Bidding for pick 2 is now open, and again, all the clubs bid and the team that is willing to pay the most gets pick 2, and the player they want.

When an academy player is selected, so lets say Fremantle bid 2816 points on Ashcroft, Dilon comes out and says "with 2816 points Fremantle have won pick 4 and have selected Father/Son selection Levi Ashcroft. Brisbane have 2 minutes to match"

and Brisbane have 2 minutes to match, and they have to select Ashcroft with 2816 points, just like Fremantle wanted to, they don't get a discount, they pay as much as the highest bidder is willing to pay, but they do get first rights.

To me that would be better.

Also a blind draft auction gives far many more options in how a team builds a list. Makes it easier for West Coast for instance to target Western Australians as they don't have to worry about reaching too much if they have pick 5 but there is a WA kid who is expected to go pick 11.

It changes the system from a barter system to a currency based system and makes it much fairer for everyone.

This idea always comes up in theory and I like the idea in principle but there's an entire operations research field of auction theory that needs to be explored more.

The main problem with this is in cases where there's an extremely good pick 1 you get situations where you're essentially forcing that player to go at the cost of the 2nd most points + 1 more point.

For instance West Coast might have had to pay 4099 points for Harley Reid becasue every other team would be willing to give up their entire draft hand and top up their list with delisted free agents or whatever, just to get Harley Reid.

If West Coast in that scenario want to trade some points for players that would ordinarily be second or third rounders but pay enough points that forces them to go below 4098 points, they lose access to Harley Reid. This diminishes their hand more than the 3000 points ascribed to pick 1.

Say that Harley Reid's identical twin is going in the same draft. He would then go for 1 more point than the team with the 3rd most points, 3741 points. Etc. Etc.

It goes against the intention of the draft that West Coast can access the best player in the draft - that half the time will be better than an average pick 1 - and still retain a reasonable draft hand otherwise to recruit players.

It doesn't mean that an auction is bad per se but there's other ways of utilising an auction that's different to your suggestion e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickrey_auction

Or you would otherwise have to explore situations where the amount of points given to each team has far greater deviation, etc.

 

[4tune8]

I don't know where I read it, or whether I was dreaming, but is there currently a limit on how many points a club can go into deficit before they are excluded from bidding? I thought it was around 1735pts with it dropping to 935pts next year?

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I don't know where I read it, or whether I was dreaming, but is there currently a limit on how many points a club can go into deficit before they are excluded from bidding? I thought it was around 1735pts with it dropping to 935pts next year?

Yep, it means you essentially can't go into more debt than the amount of points the premiers would have the following year, because if you win the flag, you'd still have negative points and would go into debt in a third draft following the bid, which is a big no-no (as you can't also trade draft picks that much in advance).

The change is just reflecting that

 

[RUNVS]

Seriously though I do like the sound of this, but one query is how trading future points would work. Could you still have the points allotted in packets based on finishing order, and then if a club holds another club's future 2nd rounder, they get the points packet associated with that placing?

Yes I imagine in the first year or two in the transition there would need to be things like this, where teams with future picks will get more points in those years to compensate.

So lets say Fremantle finished 9th

9th position - 2504 points

and they have a future second round pick at 26 they got in a previous year that would be added to their total so they would end up with 3233 points, and the team that traded out the pick the previous year would end up with 729 fewer points.

After the crossover between picks and points systems though this will no longer be necessary.

I also imagine teams can bank points if they like. So if a team doesn't feel like spending 1000 points in 2024 then in 2025 those points crossover, so they have an extra 1000 points.