Play Nice AFL Womens - General Discussion

[Teen Wolf]

I just don't see the point of endlessly litigating wording to make it seem like the AFL didn't change their minds/backtrack/decide to hold their horses.

The wording of official AFL statements, policies, reports etc is kind of important, from my personal experience.

Therefore, when asked if I expected compo to be announced by now, I said no on the basis that the AFL didn't say they would announce it by now.

Your accusations of verbosity ought to be directed toward the poster who proceeded to post quotes from, and links to, a half-dozen articles that inadvertently supported my answer.

 

[petits]

The wording of official AFL statements, policies, reports etc is kind of important, from my personal experience.

Therefore, when asked if I expected compo to be announced by now, I said no on the basis that the AFL didn't say they would announce it by now.

Your accusations of verbosity ought to be directed toward the poster who proceeded to post quotes from, and links to, a half-dozen articles that inadvertently supported my answer.

It was sortof about both of you, but also not trying to make 'accusations', just trying to offer a way out... I find the discussion of possible compensation, and why the AFL might be waiting on announcing it, much more interesting than discussing whether the exact wording used at certain points in the past gives them an 'out' for not announcing it yet, or not. I do personally think they changed their minds about when to announce compensation, but I don't think we can reach an agreement on that, and will likely never know the exact details of what happened.

(Please interpret all my posts as if written by a kind, friendly person who holds no ill-will against you, any of you, or any of your clubs. Just an interested observer of the AFLW competition as a whole, as I assume most people on this sub-forum are).

 

[Profop]

To me, both of these reasons seem legitimate justifications to hold off finalising / announcing compensation:

1. The CBA negotiations which might alter the value of any compensation announced now (i.e. the degree the AFLW moves to a full national draft)
2. The actual degree of existing competitive balance as revealed by outcomes this season (i.e. the season that was always going to occur before any compensation would be realised anyway)

I can't really make sense, beyond accounting for obtuseness, as to why people would think that a strong degree of pragmatism is not required at this point in the development of a fledging league.

Because they said it would be decided and they’ve announced nothing makes them seem like they have next to no idea what they’re doing

If they were waiting for the CBA then come out at the start and say once the CBA is sorted we’ll announce the compensation

It’s not hard, it’s just basic communication from the league

 

[FoopyNerd]

At what point in time would the AFL consider the comp to be 'even' and then all these concessions and special signing periods etc go away?

I guess I look at it and think the journey of building towards a flag is more exciting than being an instant success. Mind you whether it's the inaugural list build of NM, or the current lists of Ess and Haw, you still need good culture, coaching, development and a game plan that utilises the talent. Having a strong list alone doesn't win a flag. But if my Swannies were to be given continual concessions I wouldn't feel as satisfied with a flag than if the AFL support stopped here (I'm sure many will say they don't care how their team gets there and nothing is a given anyway). I personally get a thrill from seeing the lesser likes grow into a role and then be a crucial cog in a premiership side

 

[mookieb]

So the skills in AFLW is improving all the time especially with ball movement, kicking, marking etc. So why can't they execute the easiest of skills - the handball? It's like they handball in gaelic football style with a dinky, loopy soft hand often to the middle of the ball. There seems to be no emphasis on hitting the end of the ball or to put any speed or force to it in preference to more of a lob.

Now that i'm conscious of it happening it drives me mad watching it.

 

[jatz14]

So the skills in AFLW is improving all the time especially with ball movement, kicking, marking etc. So why can't they execute the easiest of skills - the handball? It's like they handball in gaelic football style with a dinky, loopy soft hand often to the middle of the ball. There seems to be no emphasis on hitting the end of the ball or to put any speed or force to it in preference to more of a lob.

Now that i'm conscious of it happening it drives me mad watching it.

For me, it's kicking over the mark. The number of players that go back 30 meters, then do a 5 m run up followed by a 35 m pass to someone only just forward of where they first got the ball.

No wonder ball movement is so slow.

And it's inexplicable.


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[Ulahoopski]

So the skills in AFLW is improving all the time especially with ball movement, kicking, marking etc. So why can't they execute the easiest of skills - the handball? It's like they handball in gaelic football style with a dinky, loopy soft hand often to the middle of the ball. There seems to be no emphasis on hitting the end of the ball or to put any speed or force to it in preference to more of a lob.

Now that i'm conscious of it happening it drives me mad watching it.

If there’s been any improvement in skills it’s so minimal as to be imperceptibl. An under 15s suburban boys team would destroy any AFLW side.

 

[jatz14]

If there’s been any improvement in skills it’s so minimal as to be imperceptibl. An under 15s suburban boys team would destroy any AFLW side.

Not something that has anything to do with skills though is it? And as someone else pointed out, at their club, in a practice match between their U15s girls, against the U14s boys, the girls won easily. So, maybe in an U15s boys team where puberty has hit them all, they might beat an adult women's team, but that's a reflection on male puberty, not the skill level of the women.

And the improvement in skills has been significant, a fact that is obvious to anyone that looks and is open to the possibility. Which you aren't.

 

[Ulahoopski]

Not something that has anything to do with skills though is it? And as someone else pointed out, at their club, in a practice match between their U15s girls, against the U14s boys, the girls won easily. So, maybe in an U15s boys team where puberty has hit them all, they might beat an adult women's team, but that's a reflection on male puberty, not the skill level of the women.

And the improvement in skills has been significant, a fact that is obvious to anyone that looks and is open to the possibility. Which you aren't.

It’s ridiculous how people like you are incapable of judging women’s football objectively and like to immediately think that anyone criticising it must be close-minded. I was completely on board with AFLW when it started going so far as to sponsor Steph Chiocci and have attended numerous games over the years. Unlike you I haven’t been sucked in by the laughable commentary on each game that lauds any player with basic skills as a “champion” when that player only stands out because the average skill level is woeful. It may improve in a generation but currently the average under 15 boy displays skills that the vast majority of AFLW players can only dream of.

 

[jatz14]

It’s ridiculous how people like you are incapable of judging women’s football objectively and like to immediately think that anyone criticising it must be close-minded. I was completely on board with AFLW when it started going so far as to sponsor Steph Chiocci and have attended numerous games over the years. Unlike you I haven’t been sucked in by the laughable commentary on each game that lauds any player with basic skills as a “champion” when that player only stands out because the average skill level is woeful. It may improve in a generation but currently the average under 15 boy displays skills that the vast majority of AFLW players can only dream of.

So on point to assume that because I disagree with you, I must be uncritically supportive of the standards of AFLW.

Either I think they lack skills because maybe they would be beaten by U15s, or the AFLW is just the most fantastic league ever, are they my options?

Ground skills are still poor, handballing is sub par. Kicking produces to many complete clangers, and they still miss too many easy targets, and too few have the ability to absorb pressure and think their way through a situation, resorting to poor first choice options.

Happier? does that tickle your fancy more?

But its also true that many (not all), of these things are noticeably better than they were. The game today, in the wet, Crows switched the ball from the half back flank, across the ground, then up the ground to the forward fifty. Every kick hit an open player, every player took the mark in the hands, maybe 5 or 6 kicks, in the wet.

This didn't happen, like ever, just a few years ago.

Length of kicking is longer, marking the ball cleanly in the hands has gotten significantly better. Contested marks are taken more often. Its still to congested, but the congestion isn't quite as dense as it was, they exit a bit easier.

The commentary sucks, they are insufficiently critical of basic errors, but thats their job, to talk up the product. Commenting a game and going, that sucks, and that sucks and that sucks helps nobody and gets them fired.

You, like almost all critics of the AFLW, resort to hyperbole. They haven't improved at all - hyperbole.

If you had said, they have a long way to go, I would agree.

Beaten by an U15s suburban boys team. How do you know? What does it matter? Somewhere between the ages of 14 and 16, the boys will surpass them physically by so much that skill level will just be irrelevant. But why the need to make meaningless comparisons? Why does everyone that wants to kick the AFLW compare it to boys, that it has nothing to do with? I had a son play in the U15s not that long ago, and I think you may be remembering with rose coloured glasses, because they had a handful of really talented players, but most of them weren't close to AFLW level skill wise, not remotely close.

But hey, at least you didn't compare it to the U12s, or the U8s, or Ozkick, all of which seems to be popular.

 

[Cdog71]

It’s ridiculous how people like you are incapable of judging women’s football objectively and like to immediately think that anyone criticising it must be close-minded. I was completely on board with AFLW when it started going so far as to sponsor Steph Chiocci and have attended numerous games over the years. Unlike you I haven’t been sucked in by the laughable commentary on each game that lauds any player with basic skills as a “champion” when that player only stands out because the average skill level is woeful. It may improve in a generation but currently the average under 15 boy displays skills that the vast majority of AFLW players can only dream of.

They only play “odd years” in the talent pathway in junior footy.
It’d be U/16 boys at local level.

And I’d reckon U/16 Div1 boys in any team sport would beat and open age womens team.
From water polo to BBall.
Happened to the Matilda’s a few years ago and they’re probably top 5-7 in the world now as a team.

 

[Ulahoopski]

So on point to assume that because I disagree with you, I must be uncritically supportive of the standards of AFLW.

Either I think they lack skills because maybe they would be beaten by U15s, or the AFLW is just the most fantastic league ever, are they my options?

Hard to see how you’ve interpreted that from anything I’ve said. The only (incorrect) assumption i made was that your opinion on skill improvement must’ve come from commentators exaggerating AFLW play. An easy assumption to make because i would have thought anyone watching a game could see how comical so many passages of play are.

Happier? does that tickle your fancy more?

I didn’t comment in hope of getting my fancy tickled but yes, it’s nice to see some realistic assessment.

The commentary sucks, they are insufficiently critical of basic errors, but thats their job, to talk up the product. Commenting a game and going, that sucks, and that sucks and that sucks helps nobody and gets them fired.

Yes, I do realise the commentators are there to dress the game up and avoid criticism in case people get offended by reality and I don’t expect or want them to focus on the poor display of skills but I also don’t want them to treat their audience like complete fools. For instance, in yesterdays game there was an obvious miskick that went more or less straight up and was subsequently marked by the kicker. Happens on occasion at all levels yet Daniel Hartford carried on as if it was intentional and how “in all my years of football, I’ve never seen that”. Please. How does he expect people to take that seriously? Just have a laugh at an obvious error without dressing it up as something it’s clearly not.

You, like almost all critics of the AFLW, resort to hyperbole. They haven't improved at all - hyperbole.

Hardly “hyperbole”. I stated that any improvement has been so minimal as to be imperceptible. I stand by that. There has been improvement in so far as the number of skilled players has increased but in terms of overall team play it hasn’t improved anywhere near as much as it should have with the increased resources and time thats been poured into the women’s game. This is the fault of (way too rapid) expansion which has effectively diluted the talent.

If you had said, they have a long way to go, I would agree.

Didn’t I imply that by saying it may improve over a generation?

Somewhere between the ages of 14 and 16, the boys will surpass them physically by so much that skill level will just be irrelevant.

To me, physicality is the least of the AFLW’s problems and don‘t imagine it’d be a factor in such a contest. Australian Rules Football is primarily a game of skill so I don’t see at all how skill level would ever be irrelevant. I used the comparison after recently watching a junior level game in which the skill level was unbelievable to me.

I wanted the AFLW to be something I could enjoy watching in the same way as women’s soccer, rugby, or cricket but it just hasn’t progressed at the sort of rate I think it should have. Im happy if others can watch and enjoy but to judge criticism of the skill level as anything other than objective and label it as that of someone who cant imagine the possibility of improvement comes across as ignoring what’s s there for everyone to see.

 

[jatz14]

Hard to see how you’ve interpreted that from anything I’ve said. The only (incorrect) assumption i made was that your opinion on skill improvement must’ve come from commentators exaggerating AFLW play. An easy assumption to make because i would have thought anyone watching a game could see how comical so many passages of play are.

I didn’t comment in hope of getting my fancy tickled but yes, it’s nice to see some realistic assessment.

Yes, I do realise the commentators are there to dress the game up and avoid criticism in case people get offended by reality and I don’t expect or want them to focus on the poor display of skills but I also don’t want them to treat their audience like complete fools. For instance, in yesterdays game there was an obvious miskick that went more or less straight up and was subsequently marked by the kicker. Happens on occasion at all levels yet Daniel Hartford carried on as if it was intentional and how “in all my years of football, I’ve never seen that”. Please. How does he expect people to take that seriously? Just have a laugh at an obvious error without dressing it up as something it’s clearly not.

Hardly “hyperbole”. I stated that any improvement has been so minimal as to be imperceptible. I stand by that. There has been improvement in so far as the number of skilled players has increased but in terms of overall team play it hasn’t improved anywhere near as much as it should have with the increased resources and time thats been poured into the women’s game. This is the fault of (way too rapid) expansion which has effectively diluted the talent.

Didn’t I imply that by saying it may improve over a generation?

To me, physicality is the least of the AFLW’s problems and don‘t imagine it’d be a factor in such a contest. Australian Rules Football is primarily a game of skill so I don’t see at all how skill level would ever be irrelevant. I used the comparison after recently watching a junior level game in which the skill level was unbelievable to me.

I wanted the AFLW to be something I could enjoy watching in the same way as women’s soccer, rugby, or cricket but it just hasn’t progressed at the sort of rate I think it should have. Im happy if others can watch and enjoy but to judge criticism of the skill level as anything other than objective and label it as that of someone who cant imagine the possibility of improvement comes across as ignoring what’s s there for everyone to see.

It doesn't matter how good your skills are if you make the perfect lead to the perfect kick, and your poorly skilled opponent just runs past you while the ball is in the air. Or if every one on one contest your in you just get physically shoved out the way.

Or you position yourself perfectly for that mark and your out of position opponent just jumps over you. Or every time your leading in the race for a loose ball, you get there third

This is why every pro women's team that plays a semi decent teenage boy team looses. Usually badly.

It's why every hater of women's sport on earth constantly points to well regarded women's team and goes "women's sport is so shit, they got beaten by boys". "How can women justify getting paid for sport, they wouldn't beat boys".

So, a point to the wise.

Comparing women's sport to boys and saying "but I don't hate women's sport" is a bit like saying women shouldn't play sport because a real woman should be too busy cooking and cleaning.


If you want to debate the deficiencies of the AFLW, fine, it has many.
But if you don't want people to respond as if your just hating on it, avoid the generalisations the people that generically hate women playing sport use.



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[cmndstab]

Yes, I do realise the commentators are there to dress the game up and avoid criticism in case people get offended by reality and I don’t expect or want them to focus on the poor display of skills but I also don’t want them to treat their audience like complete fools. For instance, in yesterdays game there was an obvious miskick that went more or less straight up and was subsequently marked by the kicker. Happens on occasion at all levels yet Daniel Hartford carried on as if it was intentional and how “in all my years of football, I’ve never seen that”. Please. How does he expect people to take that seriously? Just have a laugh at an obvious error without dressing it up as something it’s clearly not.

Hardly “hyperbole”. I stated that any improvement has been so minimal as to be imperceptible. I stand by that. There has been improvement in so far as the number of skilled players has increased but in terms of overall team play it hasn’t improved anywhere near as much as it should have with the increased resources and time thats been poured into the women’s game. This is the fault of (way too rapid) expansion which has effectively diluted the talent.

Sounds like your issues are with the commentary, not the game. Hartford is an idiot and his commentary is insipid, that doesn't mean AFLW is bad. For what it's worth, he very clearly knew it was an error. He was just having a laugh.

If you genuinely think the standard hasn't improved since 2017, go back and watch a random match from then. It's chalk and cheese.

 

[Cdog71]

Comparing women's sport to boys and saying "but I don't hate women's sport" is a bit like saying women shouldn't play sport because a real woman should be too busy cooking and cleaning.


If you want to debate the deficiencies of the AFLW, fine, it has many.
But if you don't want people to respond as if your just hating on it, avoid the generalisations the people that generically hate women playing sport use.

Gotta say Jatz, I don’t agree with that.

Thought some passages of play last night were bloody horrible.
I do think there’s more high quality footballers and more on the way, but when you compare to the skill level of say the Australia Womens Cricket team.
You can see those players are very highly skilled at their sport and far and away better as a team than Aussie Rules players.
I know it’s the best 13 compared to the 600 odd but it just shows any sport person who gets close to the 10,000 hr mark of training is going to be elite, generally speaking.
And semi professional is going to struggle to build that

 

[Ulahoopski]

It doesn't matter how good your skills are if you make the perfect lead to the perfect kick, and your poorly skilled opponent just runs past you while the ball is in the air. Or if every one on one contest your in you just get physically shoved out the way.

Or you position yourself perfectly for that mark and your out of position opponent just jumps over you. Or every time your leading in the race for a loose ball, you get there third

This is why every pro women's team that plays a semi decent teenage boy team looses. Usually badly.

It's why every hater of women's sport on earth constantly points to well regarded women's team and goes "women's sport is so s**t, they got beaten by boys". "How can women justify getting paid for sport, they wouldn't beat boys".

So, a point to the wise.

Comparing women's sport to boys and saying "but I don't hate women's sport" is a bit like saying women shouldn't play sport because a real woman should be too busy cooking and cleaning.


If you want to debate the deficiencies of the AFLW, fine, it has many.
But if you don't want people to respond as if your just hating on it, avoid the generalisations the people that generically hate women playing sport use.



On SM-X200 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Okay, you clearly have tunnel vision to the extent that instead of responding to actual points you ignore them and lump anyone who criticises the level of AFLW as ”haters”. So if it’s fine to debate the deficiencies why do you avoid the debate by throwing out labels?
I thought you might actual have some valid arguments but alas you throw out ridiculous comparisons instead. If I’d said that an adult female athlete doesn’t have the strength or speed of a 15 year old boy you would probably compare that to stating that women belong in the kitchen. Yet it’s fine for you to effectively diminish women in that regard in order to ignore the value of skill.
Sensible debate is beyond you in this area so I’m out.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Just flunked on the Cats and Swans, It's definitely improved since the last time zu watched 5 mins of it.

Good to see Ray Chamberlain on the whistle.

It's a bit surreal watching, there's girls playing whose dad's I used to play footy and cricket both with and against.

 

[jatz14]

Okay, you clearly have tunnel vision to the extent that instead of responding to actual points you ignore them and lump anyone who criticises the level of AFLW as ”haters”. So if it’s fine to debate the deficiencies why do you avoid the debate by throwing out labels?
I thought you might actual have some valid arguments but alas you throw out ridiculous comparisons instead. If I’d said that an adult female athlete doesn’t have the strength or speed of a 15 year old boy you would probably compare that to stating that women belong in the kitchen. Yet it’s fine for you to effectively diminish women in that regard in order to ignore the value of skill.
Sensible debate is beyond you in this area so I’m out.

You just swung 180, and probably don't even realise, so you being out is likely best for all concerned.

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[The Educator]

Positive movement on the CBA front

Breakthrough: AFL and AFLW players to vote on mammoth $2.2 billion pay deal

The intense negotiations between the AFL and AFL Players’ Association are nearing conclusion with the players to vote soon on a joint CBA that delivers significant pay rises for both male and female players.

www.theage.com.au

The AFL’s male and female players will vote on a landmark deal worth more than $2.2 billion over five years after a major breakthrough in collective bargaining talks.

A fortnight after reaching an impasse that prompted AFL Players Association CEO Paul Marsh to hint at industrial action, the union is now expected to take the proposed agreement to its players for a vote this week.

A senior industry source with knowledge of the agreement, who would not speak publicly before the vote, said the deal would ensure significant increases in the salary cap for male players and that the minimum annual salary for AFLW players would reach $70,000 by 2026.

 

[Teen Wolf]

An article from The Age with potentially good AFLW news? Caro must be out sick.

Also, here are some calculations:

We know the players want all teams to play each other every season. And that would mean an increase of 63 H&A games (from 90 to 153).

How long will it take to add that many games? Well, from 2017 to 2022, the AFLW H&A season increased by 62 games (from 28 to 90), with no increase in the 2nd year.

So that'd be a decent guide, which might lead any reasonable person to expect the following...

2022: 10 rounds (90 games)
2023: No increase
2024: 12 rounds (108 games)
2025: 14 rounds (126 games)
2026: 16 rounds (144 games)
2027: 17 rounds (153 games)

And then they'd still have to add 18 more games for Tassie, cross that bridge etc.

 

[Ticky009]

 

[FoopyNerd]

I don't love the idea of a maximum. If AFLW happens to have a huge surge in interest then they shouldn't be limiting themselves.

 

[jatz14]

I don't love the idea of a maximum. If AFLW happens to have a huge surge in interest then they shouldn't be limiting themselves.

If there was a huge surge in interest, I suspect the AFL would quietly drop it. The maximum would be to reign in expectations if there ISNT a surge in interest.

 

[CURVE]

I didn't see any mention of an increase in team lists as the numbers of games increase. Teams may be able to live with a 30 player roster for a 12 round season, but you would have to think as the AFLW season increases to 14, 17 rounds that lists wound need to be increased as well. Bringing in replacement players for long term injuries can not be the long term answer as they are playing catch up to get to AFLW level and understanding a teams gameplan.

 

[Walshawk]

So, 12 games in 2025, then 27 in 2027 if crowds average 6k and viewership 100K in 2026. This is highly unlikely, so 12 games indefinitely.