Play Nice AFL Womens - General Discussion

[jatz14]

Article I wrote for The Roar on the increasing height of AFLW juniors.

How bigger AFLW players are changing the game

When the AFLW's first season commenced in 2016, many observers were unable to get past the standard of play that was, unavoidably, a lot…

www.theroar.com.au

Great article, and you have come up with a way of quantitating the changing impact newer more developed youth girl pathways are having.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[AlphaSheep]

Great article, and you have come up with a way of quantitating the changing impact newer more developed youth girl pathways are having.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

Thanks! Someone brought up in my Twitter feed how the average height of the population in general is increasing too. Which is curious, because I recall that in the WNBL in the '90s, any near-six-foot or over player who was also agile was considered rare. There's so many now in AFLW juniors, I have to think it might be something happening population-wide as well. I'm nearly six foot and used to be above-average height, but now all the teenage boys are looming over me.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Players in the men's AFL competition have gotten taller on average, and congestion has only gotten worse.

Yet we're to believe the improved quality of AFLW matches is due to the increasing height of draftees.

I don't get the fascination with this red herring.

 

[jatz14]

Players in the men's AFL competition have gotten taller on average, and congestion has only gotten worse.

Yet we're to believe the improved quality of AFLW matches is due to the increasing height of draftees.

I don't get the fascination with this red herring.

It isnt analogous to mens at all. Mens came about because of a change in how coaches were structuring the game. Not because the pool of players AFL was chosen from underwent some dramatic change.

Height is a proxy for other things in this instance. There has been an over 2 inch, almost 3 inch height gain in midfielders in 4 years. Why? It isnt due to general population changes in that short period of time.

If you were over 175 cm, with a bit of talent and athleticism previously, you tended to end up a KPP, or even a pinch hitting ruck. If you were 170 - 175 cm, and could play a bit, taller flanker, even a mobile kpp. Mids then came from that group that could play, and were not required in other areas, like CHF, and they tended to be short. This was exacerbated in footy by taller athletic players being actively hunted by netball and basketball. This 'thinned out' the ranks of tall athletic talented girls playing footy.

What this lead to is, with a few exceptions, height profiles in womens footy were fairly compressed relative to mens. You had a few tall rucks, but even then, only a handful over about 181cm. Most of the KPP didnt get above about 177 cm. Most of your skilled players were mosquito fleet size.

The change we are seeing in height is, more taller girls. This is pushing the height up, across the ground. Yes, midfielders are becoming bigger. But KPP are becoming more athletic and skilled. But they arent just taller, that is just a parameter that is easy to measure. They are becoming midfielders because they have better athleticism, better hand eye coordination, etc.

So, height is a proxy for things less easy to measure, more subjective. Because, it would be staggering if height increased drastically, but everything else remained the same.

Remember, netball and basketball were not targeting tall players, they were targeting tall skilled players, players with hand eye coordination, speed, game sense, and now footy is getting a lot of them, and they will transform how womens footy is played.

AFLW is still something a committed community level player can realistically aspire to, but I think that doesn't last more than a couple more years. After that, if you took Katie, the local team women's star, and dropped her in an AFLW game, she is just going to get beat the **** up, and not touch the ball. Not quick enough, strong enough or big enough to be competitive anywhere. And that is the way it should be.

 

[AlphaSheep]

It isnt analogous to mens at all. Mens came about because of a change in how coaches were structuring the game. Not because the pool of players AFL was chosen from underwent some dramatic change.

Height is a proxy for other things in this instance. There has been an over 2 inch, almost 3 inch height gain in midfielders in 4 years. Why? It isnt due to general population changes in that short period of time.

If you were over 175 cm, with a bit of talent and athleticism previously, you tended to end up a KPP, or even a pinch hitting ruck. If you were 170 - 175 cm, and could play a bit, taller flanker, even a mobile kpp. Mids then came from that group that could play, and were not required in other areas, like CHF, and they tended to be short. This was exacerbated in footy by taller athletic players being actively hunted by netball and basketball. This 'thinned out' the ranks of tall athletic talented girls playing footy.

What this lead to is, with a few exceptions, height profiles in womens footy were fairly compressed relative to mens. You had a few tall rucks, but even then, only a handful over about 181cm. Most of the KPP didnt get above about 177 cm. Most of your skilled players were mosquito fleet size.

The change we are seeing in height is, more taller girls. This is pushing the height up, across the ground. Yes, midfielders are becoming bigger. But KPP are becoming more athletic and skilled. But they arent just taller, that is just a parameter that is easy to measure. They are becoming midfielders because they have better athleticism, better hand eye coordination, etc.

So, height is a proxy for things less easy to measure, more subjective. Because, it would be staggering if height increased drastically, but everything else remained the same.

Remember, netball and basketball were not targeting tall players, they were targeting tall skilled players, players with hand eye coordination, speed, game sense, and now footy is getting a lot of them, and they will transform how womens footy is played.

AFLW is still something a committed community level player can realistically aspire to, but I think that doesn't last more than a couple more years. After that, if you took Katie, the local team women's star, and dropped her in an AFLW game, she is just going to get beat the fu** up, and not touch the ball. Not quick enough, strong enough or big enough to be competitive anywhere. And that is the way it should be.

Exactly. It's a sign that the women's talent pool is finally getting fully utilised, across all its dimensions.

It's going to sneak up rapidly on some players, too. I was going over my season previews, and looking at Carlton's backline, and realising that Gab Pound's position is suddenly looking shaky. Two years ago Pound was one of Carlton's better players. But Stevens and Harrington are their two best defenders, Laloifi is an emerging gun and superior athlete, Wilson is fast becoming their best tall back... and suddenly there's only two starting spots left between Jess Hosking, Lauren Brazale, Nat Plane, Gab Pound, Brooke Vernon and the new draftee Daisy Walker.

If Vernon and Walker turn out to be seriously good in a few years... well, someone like Pound has nice skills and all, but she's unremarkable as an athlete in that company, about average sized, etc. And these kids just keep coming, every new draft there's someone new, looking to take your spot. Pretty good skills won't save you, because everyone's got pretty good skills. What WILL save you is something extra physically, speed, strength, height, etc. And so the competition gets faster, stronger, taller.

 

[Teen Wolf]

It isnt analogous to mens at all.

I'm not the one saying taller players will make AFLW teams be able to switch the play like the men do and therefore open up the game more.

There has been an over 2 inch, almost 3 inch height gain in midfielders in 4 years. Why? It isnt due to general population changes in that short period of time.

The height listings of players are unreliable.
The categorisations of midfielders are arbitrary.
Refined pathways ensure more players reach a certain fitness threshold, reducing the number of tall players who purely rely on their size and can only play as a KPP.

None of that suggests the quality of AFLW matches has gotten better because of player height. Comparing the average game from 2020 and 2017, the only real difference I see is better ball use and fitness.

Exactly. It's a sign that the women's talent pool is finally getting fully utilised, across all its dimensions.

It's going to sneak up rapidly on some players, too. I was going over my season previews, and looking at Carlton's backline, and realising that Gab Pound's position is suddenly looking shaky. Two years ago Pound was one of Carlton's better players. But Stevens and Harrington are their two best defenders, Laloifi is an emerging gun and superior athlete, Wilson is fast becoming their best tall back... and suddenly there's only two starting spots left between Jess Hosking, Lauren Brazale, Nat Plane, Gab Pound, Brooke Vernon and the new draftee Daisy Walker.

If Vernon and Walker turn out to be seriously good in a few years... well, someone like Pound has nice skills and all, but she's unremarkable as an athlete in that company, about average sized, etc. And these kids just keep coming, every new draft there's someone new, looking to take your spot. Pretty good skills won't save you, because everyone's got pretty good skills. What WILL save you is something extra physically, speed, strength, height, etc. And so the competition gets faster, stronger, taller.

Stevo played HF this year. So if Pound (whose foot skills and smarts aren't merely "pretty good" compared to Harrington/Laloifi/Wilson) doesn't get a game, Carlton would be leaving out their only defender with the proven ability to hit a target. Also, four years without missing a game would put her well ahead in the physical asset stakes, given the rate of injuries in the league.

 

[Biggie]

As somone who is around the players at a junior & U18 level - they are definitely getting taller and stronger

 

[jatz14]

I'm not the one saying taller players will make AFLW teams be able to switch the play like the men do and therefore open up the game more.

The height listings of players are unreliable.
The categorisations of midfielders are arbitrary.
Refined pathways ensure more players reach a certain fitness threshold, reducing the number of tall players who purely rely on their size and can only play as a KPP.

None of that suggests the quality of AFLW matches has gotten better because of player height. Comparing the average game from 2020 and 2017, the only real difference I see is better ball use and fitness.

Stevo played HF this year. So if Pound (whose foot skills and smarts aren't merely "pretty good" compared to Harrington/Laloifi/Wilson) doesn't get a game, Carlton would be leaving out their only defender with the proven ability to hit a target. Also, four years without missing a game would put her well ahead in the physical asset stakes, given the rate of injuries in the league.

No, are you being deliberately obtuse?

There are a bunch of parameters that will move in unison, height is just one of them, and the easiest to quantify, its the canary in the coal mine, signalling what is happening.

It isnt just that they are taller that is likely to let them switch better. Its all the other things that are going along with that. Its the whole package, including height.
Its that they are also faster, better marks, and better kicks. Switching is less risky when the kicker is less likely to fluff the kick, and the receiver less likely to drop a simple mark, and who can take a contested mark.

The introduction of a bigger and wider draft pool is going to force a wide range of players out of the AFLW. If you cannot kick that well, but you go in hard, you could get a game. Reliable, but not quick or strong, you still get a game. Bigger, better skilled players will force them out.

Increased height didn't have this affect on the mens game, because it literally was just height. They arent better kicks, or marks, or faster than 10 years ago.

And yes, heights on AFLW websites are notoriously unreliable, but we are talking an average shift of about 3 inches, that is huge and far beyond imprecision in listed heights. Just looking at drafted mids this year tells you that. McKenzie is big, really big for a female mid, she is also a powerful mark and a vey good two sided kick. In previous generations, she would have been a centre half forward, but the number of big good girls available means she is free to play mid. The player she forces out of the mid rotation will not just be smaller, she will almost certainly be 1 sided (most established players are), an inferior kick, a shallower kick, and a much worse mark.

This round of drafted mids are bigger, but also, much better kicks. The reasons are similar, when you have much more milk, the cream rising to the top is thicker.

Yes, for a player like Pound, being in the system a while is a big plus. And I agree there may be a tendency to overstate how quickly young players will have an impact. But players like Pound will have to keep improving. It will be increasingly hard to keep her spot, not impossible, she will likely play every game. Its just that the players she is keeping out of the team are going to become better and better, putting more and more pressure on her.

Again, this is a good thing. Just being a good kick shouldn't keep you in a professional team. Plenty of really good kicks in mens local footy.

 

[Teen Wolf]

And yes, heights on AFLW websites are notoriously unreliable, but we are talking an average shift of about 3 inches, that is huge and far beyond imprecision in listed heights.

Not if there are instances of players' listed heights being at least 10cm out, which you will find to be the case when consulting other sources. Claiming the average height of first round midfielder draftees of 2017 was 162.25cm undermines the validity of any subsequent point one would like to make.

It isnt just that they are taller that is likely to let them switch better. Its all the other things that are going along with that. Its the whole package, including height.
Its that they are also faster, better marks, and better kicks. Switching is less risky when the kicker is less likely to fluff the kick, and the receiver less likely to drop a simple mark, and who can take a contested mark.

We'll just have to agree to disagree about height having any relevance with regards to a midfielder's effectiveness. Imo it doesn't deserve to be coveted alongside the actual meaningful assets that are being mentioned. Otherwise you'd have to take the view that Garner, Hatchard etc would be lesser on-ballers if they were shorter, but I personally don't believe that's even partly the reason for their success.

Yes, for a player like Pound, being in the system a while is a big plus. And I agree there may be a tendency to overstate how quickly young players will have an impact. But players like Pound will have to keep improving. It will be increasingly hard to keep her spot, not impossible, she will likely play every game. Its just that the players she is keeping out of the team are going to become better and better, putting more and more pressure on her.

The current players in the league are getting better. There's just as much pressure on draft hopefuls to improve to get a game, yet the narrative is never framed that way. How about this as a talking point for a change: the players in the AFLW are all exceptional footballers and remarkable athletes.

It's amazing how insecure and misguided supporters quickly abandoned this notion just because trolls (and/or people who don't understand women's sport) told them to. There is no need to wistfully dream about the league becoming a respectable product five years down the track, it's already that and much more.

 

[jatz14]

Not if there are instances of players' listed heights being at least 10cm out, which you will find to be the case when consulting other sources. Claiming the average height of first round midfielder draftees of 2017 was 162.25cm undermines the validity of any subsequent point one would like to make.

We'll just have to agree to disagree about height having any relevance with regards to a midfielder's effectiveness. Imo it doesn't deserve to be coveted alongside the actual meaningful assets that are being mentioned. Otherwise you'd have to take the view that Garner, Hatchard etc would be lesser on-ballers if they were shorter, but I personally don't believe that's even partly the reason for their success.

The current players in the league are getting better. There's just as much pressure on draft hopefuls to improve to get a game, yet the narrative is never framed that way. How about this as a talking point for a change: the players in the AFLW are all exceptional footballers and remarkable athletes.

It's amazing how insecure and misguided supporters quickly abandoned this notion just because trolls (and/or people who don't understand women's sport) told them to. There is no need to wistfully dream about the league becoming a respectable product five years down the track, it's already that and much more.

You know, saying it will get better isn't saying its not good?

 

[Teen Wolf]

You know, saying it will get better isn't saying its not good?

Saying it will get better is the response given by supporters to close-minded people who say it isn't good.

Those close-minded people will never be dissuaded, and it's time to stop trying. Especially when it's done so at the expense of players who have made and continue to make the league so enjoyable to follow.

Instead of foisting unreasonable expectations on the future top players, how about we just let them be and in the meantime pay more respect to the current crop. Maybe finish this candy bar before you open another one.

 

[CrowdedHouse]

 

[TWLS]

As somone who is around the players at a junior & U18 level - they are definitely getting taller and stronger

As someone who notices things when I walk around local shopping centres - I am 185 cm tall and anecdotally a few years ago young girls/women were definitely not as tall as now. These days quite a few girls/women are around my height or just shorter.
Waits for someone to post the stats to disprove my theory. Anyhow I think they are getting taller.

 

[Darkyprotector]

keen to play freo this year feel like they are the only team that could challenge us

Pies

 

[Aeglos]

Exactly. It's a sign that the women's talent pool is finally getting fully utilised, across all its dimensions.

It's going to sneak up rapidly on some players, too. I was going over my season previews, and looking at Carlton's backline, and realising that Gab Pound's position is suddenly looking shaky. Two years ago Pound was one of Carlton's better players. But Stevens and Harrington are their two best defenders, Laloifi is an emerging gun and superior athlete, Wilson is fast becoming their best tall back... and suddenly there's only two starting spots left between Jess Hosking, Lauren Brazale, Nat Plane, Gab Pound, Brooke Vernon and the new draftee Daisy Walker.

If Vernon and Walker turn out to be seriously good in a few years... well, someone like Pound has nice skills and all, but she's unremarkable as an athlete in that company, about average sized, etc. And these kids just keep coming, every new draft there's someone new, looking to take your spot. Pretty good skills won't save you, because everyone's got pretty good skills. What WILL save you is something extra physically, speed, strength, height, etc. And so the competition gets faster, stronger, taller.

Realistically by as early as 2025 you could go through the original AFLW lists and be lucky to pull out a half dozen players per side who'd even get a list spot.
In my friend's team around 2011/2012 the best players in their senior side were all 16-18 year olds. Those same 16-18 years are now pretty mids as 25-26 year olds with their young(er) brigade again being their best players.

 

[Bombermania]

The improvement in player build shouldn't surprise because when this comp started it was ineffect junior footy and as we know from the men's game players take a few years to develop and by the sounds of it that is what is starting to happen in the AFLW. The women's game was always going to take a few years and will only get better which would be helped further if the women went full time professional.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

The improvement in player build shouldn't surprise because when this comp started it was ineffect junior footy and as we know from the men's game players take a few years to develop and by the sounds of it that is what is starting to happen in the AFLW. The women's game was always going to take a few years and will only get better which would be helped further if the women went full time professional.

Yep. That's the huge difference - the fact that junior footy only existed from around 2004 and even then, was largely ineffectual. It's only been a few years that the girls have had TAC cup footy, when previously they were drafted out of local clubs.

 

[GC2015]

Anyone know the record for the youngest player to ever play an AFLW game? The reason I ask is because next season is starting earlier than any previous AFLW season (28-31 Jan) and Daisy D'Arcy from my club will be 18 years and 49 days old by the time round 1 rolls around.

Have we ever seen a younger debutant in the AFLW?

 

[Teen Wolf]

Anyone know the record for the youngest player to ever play an AFLW game? The reason I ask is because next season is starting earlier than any previous AFLW season (28-31 Jan) and Daisy D'Arcy from my club will be 18 years and 49 days old by the time round 1 rolls around.

Have we ever seen a younger debutant in the AFLW?

Charlotte Wilson (born 29 Dec 2000) might've been a tough one to ever beat* if she had debuted in round 1 of 2019 rather than round 5. *Notwithstanding future fixture changes, and the inevitability of eventually a player joining the league who was born on NYE (well, there already is one in Gemma Houghton, but you know what I mean).

I think the current "leaderboard" is this:

Erin McKinnon - 18y 51d (born 15 Dec 1998, debuted R1 2017)
Nina Morrison - 18y 51d (born 13 Dec 2000, debuted R1 2019)
Sophie van de Heuvel - 18y 54d (born 10 Dec 2000, debuted R1 2019)
Isabella Ayre - 18y 56d (born 9 Dec 1998, debuted R1 2017)
Monique Conti - 18y 57d (born 9 Dec 1999, debuted R1 2018)

 

[GC2015]

Charlotte Wilson (born 29 Dec 2000) might've been a tough one to ever beat* if she had debuted in round 1 of 2019 rather than round 5. *Notwithstanding future fixture changes, and the inevitability of eventually a player joining the league who was born on NYE (well, there already is one in Gemma Houghton, but you know what I mean).

I think the current "leaderboard" is this:

Erin McKinnon - 18y 51d (born 15 Dec 1998, debuted R1 2017)
Nina Morrison - 18y 51d (born 13 Dec 2000, debuted R1 2019)
Sophie van de Heuvel - 18y 54d (born 10 Dec 2000, debuted R1 2019)
Isabella Ayre - 18y 56d (born 9 Dec 1998, debuted R1 2017)
Monique Conti - 18y 57d (born 9 Dec 1999, debuted R1 2018)

I'd be very surprised if round 1 goes any earlier than late January. There's just too much competition with the tennis, cricket, W-League etc.

Based on what you've posted, it would appear Daisy D'Arcy will break the AFLW youngest player record should she be chosen for the round 1 fixture against West Coast on January 30. It's going to be a difficult record to break considering next year's round 1 could easily be moved back into February.

 

[CrowdedHouse]

We're at a very interesting point now. Exactly one month out from the start of the AFLW season.

The GWS Giants are meant to fly to WA to play Freo in Round 1... but with WA's border closed to NSW (or at least Sydney?) at this point, surely a call needs to be made soon on what a potential Plan B is.


A theory I have is that the GWS players who left NSW before borders closed, should stay where they are now for at least another week or so. If the Sydney COVID and state border issues are on going (two weeks out from round 1), then make a 'spare parts team' by combining the GWS players outside of NSW with players who missed out in the draft (from other states), and have them play the GWS games as away games, until the situation is resolved.

 

[Teen Wolf]

We're at a very interesting point now. Exactly one month out from the start of the AFLW season.

The GWS Giants are meant to fly to WA to play Freo in Round 1... but with WA's border closed to NSW (or at least Sydney?) at this point, surely a call needs to be made soon on what a potential Plan B is.


A theory I have is that the GWS players who left NSW before borders closed, should stay where they are now for at least another week or so. If the Sydney COVID and state border issues are on going (two weeks out from round 1), then make a 'spare parts team' by combining the GWS players outside of NSW with players who missed out in the draft (from other states), and have them play the GWS games as away games, until the situation is resolved.

Traitorous suggestion.

 

[CrowdedHouse]

Traitorous suggestion.

Well, they've got to come up with something soon. Hopefully we won't need it, but the clock is ticking.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Well, they've got to come up with something soon. Hopefully we won't need it, but the clock is ticking.

If a contingency plan needs to be implemented, hopefully there's some actual thought and effort put into it.

 

[CrowdedHouse]

GWS relocating to Albury due to COVID