Play Nice AFL Womens - General Discussion

[The Educator]

I didn't see any mention of an increase in team lists as the numbers of games increase. Teams may be able to live with a 30 player roster for a 12 round season, but you would have to think as the AFLW season increases to 14, 17 rounds that lists wound need to be increased as well. Bringing in replacement players for long term injuries can not be the long term answer as they are playing catch up to get to AFLW level and understanding a teams gameplan.

That's likely true and probably one of the drivers of the increasing incremental costs (a long with a range of other costs of expanded into the AFLM season) of expanding the season

 

[The Educator]

So, 12 games in 2025, then 27 in 2027 if crowds average 6k and viewership 100K in 2026. This is highly unlikely, so 12 games indefinitely.

Until you see the actual agreement, I don't think you can conclude it is those specific parameters. More likely it would reflect the fact it is no longer free entry and there are 9 games compared to 4

 

[Walshawk]

Until you see the actual agreement, I don't think you can conclude it is those specific parameters. More likely it would reflect the fact it is no longer free entry and there are 9 games compared to 4

Those numbers have been reported on the AFL website and various media…

The decision to lengthen the season to 14 matches by 2027 is dependent upon reaching "key audience metrics", a statement from the AFL Players' Association and the AFL outlined.

"The key audience metrics will be modelled off metrics achieved in the Season Two (2018) which at its most basic level saw on average 6,000 fans a game and 100,000 broadcast viewers.

 

[The Educator]

Those numbers have been reported on the AFL website and various media…

The decision to lengthen the season to 14 matches by 2027 is dependent upon reaching "key audience metrics", a statement from the AFL Players' Association and the AFL outlined.

"The key audience metrics will be modelled off metrics achieved in the Season Two (2018) which at its most basic level saw on average 6,000 fans a game and 100,000 broadcast viewers.

Like I said

Until you see the actual agreement, I don't think you can conclude it is those specific parameters. More likely it would reflect the fact it is no longer free entry and there are 9 games compared to 4

What does "modelled off" mean?

I'd be shocked if they are requiring average crowds of 6,000 because that is what an 8 team league with free entry was getting

 

[Walshawk]

Like I said



What does "modelled off" mean?

I'd be shocked if they are requiring average crowds of 6,000 because that is what an 8 team league with free entry was getting

Not sure the number of teams matters. How many club fans were watching other teams?

 

[The Educator]

Not sure the number of teams matters. How many club fans were watching other teams?

You are missing my point

The use of the term "modelled" means you can't just assume that the actual 2018 averages are the metrics that will determine whether the season is extended

As soon as you accept that than you need to accept we are just speculating on how they will be "modelled"

On that note, the fact that attendance was free and unticketed in season 2 has far more bearing on attendance levels than the smaller number of teams. Iwould say it is still a factor as:

• there would clearly be people just supporting the league and they now have 9 rather than 4 opportunities to go each week
• there have been an increase in less accessible game times (e.g friday 5pm games)

The smaller number of games is definitely a factor with TV ratings though.

 

[Walshawk]

Gil also said ‘ideally the AFLW would run in parallel with the men’s season’. If/when it expends, I would expect that to happen. If 14 rounds, you could start in May and have the GF during the men’s Pre-finals bye.

 

[Walshawk]

You are missing my point

The use of the term "modelled" means you can't just assume that the actual 2018 averages are the metrics that will determine whether the season is extended

As soon as you accept that than you need to accept we are just speculating on how they will be "modelled"

On that note, the fact that attendance was free and unticketed in season 2 has far more bearing on attendance levels than the smaller number of teams. Iwould say it is still a factor as:

• there would clearly be people just supporting the league and they now have 9 rather than 4 opportunities to go each week
• there have been an increase in less accessible game times (e.g friday 5pm games)

The smaller number of games is definitely a factor with TV ratings though.

Sure. I doubt the AFL wants it to expand, so I reckon they will set the bar high. Where do you think they will set the metrics?

 

[petits]

Like I said

What does "modelled off" mean?

I'd be shocked if they are requiring average crowds of 6,000 because that is what an 8 team league with free entry was getting

If you take out the Fremantle AO game, season 2 goes down to average 4.9k which is not unreasonable given this season is averaging 3k so far. So yes, will be interesting to read in detail.

It'd be good to see more reporting mention total games not just rounds. Puts it in perspective a bit more, especially with the expansions. From 29 games in the first years to 99 now, it's a pretty solid increase already, and 17 rounds => 162 games so that will be a big increase too.

And yes, I think a decent fraction of the 2018 audience for those 29 games was people who wanted to see high-level women's football enough to go to matches for other clubs. I was kinda in that bucket myself. And people making more effort to go to awkward games (bad venues, difficult timing) because they had less than a handful of opportunities to watch their team each season. If you give more opportunities to attend games, but some of them are shit (like 5pm Friday games) then a lot of people won't be increasing the number of games they attend overall.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

So, 12 games in 2025, then 27 in 2027 if crowds average 6k and viewership 100K in 2026. This is highly unlikely, so 12 games indefinitely.

Very few grounds hold more than 4k

 

[Walshawk]

Very few grounds hold more than 4k

Nah they all hold 8k - 10k if the outer/hill/standing is full.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Nah they all hold 8k - 10k if the outer/hill/standing is full.

Official capacities of most grounds are 6k

 

[The Gotham Penguin]

Nathan Burke was very frank - and it was overdue tbh.

Some players just don't seem to be observing the basics regarding diet / nutrition / training in both the pre-season and in-season.

I know it's almost a taboo to criticise anything AFLW - but it's season 7, and surely by now, the players must know that the fitter you get, the better you can play.

Anne Hatchard is the poster girl for getting the best out of herself after admitting she was overweight - her game is at another level now.

It seems she is still in the minority, but whilst the AFL and AFLW continue to stifle any sort of honest commentary on the current state of the competition, then in the minority she will stay.

The teams have access to pretty much all the facilities the mens team do, so the infrastructure to get fit and stay fit is there (injuries permitting of course) and yet a significant proportion of players seem to do the minimum required.

Until we get more coaches being brave enough to deliver some home truths, without risk of censure, then things can't change.

Standards can't improve until players can run the entire game out.

It seems absurd that seven years in, this is still an issue, and one that continuously gets ignored by media and coaches.

Is it wrong to tell a player in a competition that is desperately trying to stay relevant, that they need to watch their diet, knuckle down, train harder and become more professional?

When the average salary for a 10 week season is now $46,000 (rising to $82,000 in 2027) - with over 40 players on over $100,000 then I think it's perfectly reasonable to demand a certain level of fitness.

If the AFL want the competition to improve, then enforce the basics.

2c

 

[Teen Wolf]

I know it's almost a taboo to criticise anything AFLW

No it isn't. What's dumb is identifying a particular weakness of a team or player and using that to criticise AFLW in its entirety.

Anne Hatchard is not in the minority. It's obvious that the vast majority of AFLW players similarly prepare at an elite level, from a nutrition and conditioning perspective.

Until we get more coaches being brave enough to deliver some home truths

Talk is cheap. There was nothing brave about what Nathan Burke said, about which I elaborated in the Round 5 thread.

In his fifth season and only now he's talking about fitness, but still not actually making list and selection decisions accordingly. Perhaps that's why his team is 0-5, while Melbourne--a team of players with visibly exquisite fitness--is 5-0.

If it was the men's comp, there'd be much more heat being applied on a poor performing coach with a 43% win rate across 5 seasons. Why aren't you outraged about the lack of "honest commentary" regarding Nathan Burke's untenable position??

 

[cmndstab]

People keep pointing to the upcoming salary increases and saying "they want to get that much when they're not even professionally prepared?"

But that's the wrong way of looking at it. The point is, let's pay these girls enough that (a) they can afford to focus full time on their preparation, and (b) there is enough of a financial incentive to play at the top level that soon you won't be able to make it unless you are in top shape. Because if you're not, somebody else will be, and they'll be knocking at the door to take your spot and the salary that goes with it.

At that point, the likes of Burke will only have themselves and their list managers to blame if they have a squad full of ill-prepared players.

All credit to Hatchard for getting herself into excellent shape and reaping the rewards, but the reality is the impetus for her cutting a bunch of weight wasn't a desire to be one of the best players in the league. The impetus was her being told she was literally the last player retained on the Crows list after 2018 and knowing she would likely be delisted the following year if she didn't get her fitness up.

 

[petits]

The reason for the vibe of attempts to 'stifle any sort of honest commentary on the current state of the competition' is because of people like you tbh, whether in the media or the casual commentary. In the men's league you are capable of criticising individual players or teams while taking the existence and worth of the league in general as a given. In the women's league people go from one bad team performance to attacking the whole league's existence in one breath.

This is why Doc at the Mongrel Punt is my favourite AFLW writer: he absolutely doesn't hold back at putting teams and players on blast, but equally praises the good performances, and you never feel a whisper of doubt about the legitimacy of the competition. Taking it seriously is the bedrock underlying everything he writes.

 

[footyknut]

Think TeenWolf is spot on here. Burke has always lauded how professional his players are and keeps saying Lamb should be All-Australian and when they start losing he blames their lack of professionalism while Lamb still can’t leave a stoppage because she is unfit.

 

[jatz14]

Think TeenWolf is spot on here. Burke has always lauded how professional his players are and keeps saying Lamb should be All-Australian and when they start losing he blames their lack of professionalism while Lamb still can’t leave a stoppage because she is unfit.

To be fair, Lamb had almost no preseason this year due to injury. She is unfit, but not because she ate too many hamburgers. The issue is, an unfit Lamb is still out running a fair few players on their list just through a willingness to run herself into the ground at every stage.

And if she cannot leave a stoppage, its as likely to be due to the fact that the reason there was a stoppage was because she put in multiple repeat efforts to create the stoppage in the first place, as just a general lack of fitness.

There is being fit, and there is being willing to run in pain, they aren't the same thing. Its why an unfit Lamb is still one of the first picked.

The general standard, and the general ability to sustain workrate is going to have to climb a fair bit before a player like Lamb is not getting a game, because of a lack of fitness due to injury interruption. Which is the issue of course.

 

[Teen Wolf]

To be fair, Lamb had almost no preseason this year due to injury. She is unfit, but not because she ate too many hamburgers. The issue is, an unfit Lamb is still out running a fair few players on their list just through a willingness to run herself into the ground at every stage.

And if she cannot leave a stoppage, its as likely to be due to the fact that the reason there was a stoppage was because she put in multiple repeat efforts to create the stoppage in the first place, as just a general lack of fitness.

There is being fit, and there is being willing to run in pain, they aren't the same thing. Its why an unfit Lamb is still one of the first picked.

The general standard, and the general ability to sustain workrate is going to have to climb a fair bit before a player like Lamb is not getting a game, because of a lack of fitness due to injury interruption. Which is the issue of course.

Some injuries are bad luck, others a result of not taking proper care of one's body. It isn't bad luck that Aisling McCarthy, Sarah Perkins and Bri Davey are always dealing with more injuries than your average.

Lamb had no pre-season for the second year in a row due to injury. She has been playing for years and years while carrying too much cargo, putting undue stress on the body which is now catching up with her.

If it was local football or, oh idk let's say the army, a bit of extra cushioning might not matter. But the strenuous demands for AFLW are unique, and most teams in the competition have already caught on. Sure as anything that most Bulldogs players, if they were at top clubs, would either somehow 'magically' improve their fitness or they'd be delisted after a season or two.

 

[Profop]

Not right to demand a full time approach when only getting paid a part time wage

It’s just not fair or sustainable for the players

I am only reading the Bourke quote so may be missing nuance but it suggests a coach with poor connection with his players and the lived experience of the AFLW players in general

 

[Cdog71]

Lamb had no pre-season for the second year in a row due to injury. She has been playing for years and years while carrying too much cargo, putting undue stress on the body which is now catching up with her.

I think there’s more and more of those body types to try and compete with taller heavier oppo in 1v1 and maybe your right that it takes too long to get the conditioning if you let it slide or injury keeps you outve training.
Ollie Winds is probably an example, about 100 kilo tries to run 15k a game and he’s not able to be as impactful as he was.

Seems too many WBulldogs players buggered up their preparation I think.
Like Hosking this year with soft tissue and what happened to KB last year with over loading and getting a stress fracture from running but that’s sport, the maximum training you can do before you break down is what they’re after.

 

[cmndstab]

There's just something a bit rich about a head coach complaining that his players aren't sufficiently professional or well-prepared.

They're your players! You're their coach! You are literally paid to prepare them. You're in charge of the program that chose which players would make up the list.

It's like a parent complaining their own kids weren't raised properly.

 

[jatz14]

Some injuries are bad luck, others a result of not taking proper care of one's body. It isn't bad luck that Aisling McCarthy, Sarah Perkins and Bri Davey are always dealing with more injuries than your average.

Lamb had no pre-season for the second year in a row due to injury. She has been playing for years and years while carrying too much cargo, putting undue stress on the body which is now catching up with her.

If it was local football or, oh idk let's say the army, a bit of extra cushioning might not matter. But the strenuous demands for AFLW are unique, and most teams in the competition have already caught on. Sure as anything that most Bulldogs players, if they were at top clubs, would either somehow 'magically' improve their fitness or they'd be delisted after a season or two.

American studies into women's physical abilities to stand up to the rigors of an active military life concluded that they had possibly been focussing on the wrong female body types, due to extrapolating the large amount of data on men, to women.

Large women, women with BMI indexes that were high, which in a man, would indicate they were unfit, performed better, and had fewer injuries, than lean "fit" women. They suggested pushing the target BMI for women up.

Extra body mass in women seemed to provide reserves, and to protect against the battering and wear and tear of intense sustained physical activity, while lean women with little body fat got worn down and injured quite quickly.

I note Sabrina Frederick, a footballer not noted for elite fitness, in the first series of SAS Australia not only massively outperformed other women, including athletes, she outperformed most of the men too. If I need a woman to march 50km across country with a 50 kg backpack as fast as possible, I'm picking Sabrina or Bree, and not Mon Conti (or Erin Phillips), neither of whom I suspect could do it. Conti would collapse under the weight, Phillips would break down.

Lamb, Prespakis, Davey play roles not a lot of women can play. Throw in Rowbotham, et al. I would conclude it's the role they play, and the intensity with which they play, that is the cause of their injuries, and their weight mitigates against this, not contributes to it.

The ideal of an athletic, tough, strong, robust physique able to take a battering and keep on ticking, is based on male ideals, and seems to be wrong when it comes to women. The closest any of the female players come to an ideal male physique would de Phillips, or perhaps Randall. Both highly injury prone themselves.

You can be fit, and carry extra weight, you can be slim, and unfit.

The best Lamb is a fit overweight (by male ideals) Lamb, Not a trim petite Lamb, unless she turns into an outside runner.

On SM-X200 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Teen Wolf]

American studies into women's physical abilities to stand up to the rigors of an active military life concluded that they had possibly been focussing on the wrong female body types, due to extrapolating the large amount of data on men, to women.

Large women, women with BMI indexes that were high, which in a man, would indicate they were unfit, performed better, and had fewer injuries, than lean "fit" women. They suggested pushing the target BMI for women up.

Extra body mass in women seemed to provide reserves, and to protect against the battering and wear and tear of intense sustained physical activity, while lean women with little body fat got worn down and injured quite quickly.

I note Sabrina Frederick, a footballer not noted for elite fitness, in the first series of SAS Australia not only massively outperformed other women, including athletes, she outperformed most of the men too. If I need a woman to march 50km across country with a 50 kg backpack as fast as possible, I'm picking Sabrina or Bree, and not Mon Conti (or Erin Phillips), neither of whom I suspect could do it. Conti would collapse under the weight, Phillips would break down.

Lamb, Prespakis, Davey play roles not a lot of women can play. Throw in Rowbotham, et al. I would conclude it's the role they play, and the intensity with which they play, that is the cause of their injuries, and their weight mitigates against this, not contributes to it.

The ideal of an athletic, tough, strong, robust physique able to take a battering and keep on ticking, is based on male ideals, and seems to be wrong when it comes to women. The closest any of the female players come to an ideal male physique would de Phillips, or perhaps Randall. Both highly injury prone themselves.

You can be fit, and carry extra weight, you can be slim, and unfit.

The best Lamb is a fit overweight (by male ideals) Lamb, Not a trim petite Lamb, unless she turns into an outside runner.

On SM-X200 using BigFooty.com mobile app

What part of "the strenuous demands of AFLW are unique" do you not get? Comparing it to carrying a backpack is absurd.

And I'm not sure why you're likening Prespakis and Rowbottom to Lamb and Davey. Not only is there a wide difference in physical appearance between those two groups, but also in their output.

Prespakis (except for suspension) and Rowbottom have never missed a game, and hardly ever played a bad game or struggled to run out a game. If they became highly inconsistent performers like Lamb and Davey have proven to be, naturally the first point of action for them should be to consider a different fitness regimen.

Btw I have criticised both Randall and Phillips numerous times on here for not taking proper care of their bodies. I have previously cited Pearce and Garner (both who cop/ped a battering week in week out) as two of the better physical preparers, despite not looking like Greek gods or whatever. Totally lazy to run with the "male ideals" line.

 

[Cdog71]

I note Sabrina Frederick, a footballer not noted for elite fitness, in the first series of SAS Australia not only massively outperformed other women, including athletes, she outperformed most of the men too.

Not a great analogy to the explosiveness needed to play Aussie Rules, Ruck is probably the least explosive position on the ground.

No doubt in my mind they need an amount of income that’s equal to an average salary.
It takes 6 months minimum to get ready for 3mths of producing your best and being strong enough to cope with that demand on the body.
You used to hear it all the time with the mens game “He needs a few preseasons under his belt” and similar.

If AFLW players don’t use 6mths to get ready, the game will go past them especially if they’re pushing 30