All Australian thread 2015

[Smithdogmaddog]

I'm genuinely disappointed at Cyril Rioli's inclusion in this year's All Australian Team. I like him as a player, he is great to watch but come on, he averaged a little over 10 disposals a game and only kicked 30 odd goals. As a small forward he should be doing a lot more to warrant selection.

I don't consider myself as a huge cyril over rater but this year has by far been his best. He's lacked a bit of consistency in terms of regular goal output each week but in the big games and big moments he's been one of our best, really stepped up when the chips have been down a few times.

 

[Samthegun]

Cam Mooney has also won 3 flags so happy to put them in the same category.

 

[TiggerMan22]

The one who has more shots. A point isn't a major score but it's still a score. Additionally, a good forward structure will often lock the ball in following a behind.

The player with more shots essentially keeps pushing the ball and momentum forward whilst applying pressure to the opponent.

But they also waste more opportunities. You only get a limited amount of opportunities to score each game, it could be said that the one who wastes teh least is superior. He might not be scoring the extra points, but instead those scoring opportunities may be going to his teammates instead.

 

[TiggerMan22]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/cyril-wingard-betts-pick-one.1111344/
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...ving-all-australian-since-cam-mooney.1112925/
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...a-better-footballer-than-cyril-rioli.1099498/
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...most-overrated-player-in-the-afl-pt-3.852054/

Flags won is always such a poor way to judge an individual. It means you are a good to great player at least since you held your spot in a great team, but it doesn't mean much more than that. I mean Mitch Morton has 1 flag and Robert Harvey has 0. Think that says it all.

Not to mention specifically your reply to someone that was posting legitimate concerns of Cyrils inclusion to the team just for this year. Even mentioned he thought he was a good player.
Your reply just shows you have no genuine reply.

 

[Samthegun]

Flags won is always such a poor way to judge an individual. It means you are a good to great player at least since you held your spot in a great team, but it doesn't mean much more than that. I mean Mitch Morton has 1 flag and Robert Harvey has 0. Think that says it all.

 

[Underdog]

But they also waste more opportunities. You only get a limited amount of opportunities to score each game, it could be said that the one who wastes teh least is superior. He might not be scoring the extra points, but instead those scoring opportunities may be going to his teammates instead.

Or perhaps he's creating more scoring opportunities. You don't really get limited opportunities.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Or perhaps he's creating more scoring opportunities. You don't really get limited opportunities.

Teams do. You don't have infinite amount of scoring shots in a game. You have a limited amount, and you have to make them count. If the certain player didn't have the shot, would have his teammate had a shot instead? Or would no one have had a shot? No one knows.
But as I said before each way has its reasons why its superior than the other. I can see why both ways are better.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Yep thats Cyril alright. Any thing to actually add? Or else you're better suited for Bay 13.

 

[A Swallow]

Teams do. You don't have infinite amount of scoring shots in a game. You have a limited amount, and you have to make them count. If the certain player didn't have the shot, would have his teammate had a shot instead? Or would no one have had a shot? No one knows.
But as I said before each way has its reasons why its superior than the other. I can see why both ways are better.

Most people from neutral teams would take Walker over Riewoldt every day of the week. Same amount of goals, but more shots missed is better than same goals but less behinds. Creating chances is often the hard part, and as has been suggested - it puts pressure on the opposition and creates chances for further scores after the miss.

 

[Samthegun]

Yep thats Cyril alright. Any thing to actually add? Or else you're better suited for Bay 13.

Yes, afl.com.au also think Cyril is overrated: http://www.afl.com.au/video/2015-09-22/the-aa-team-did-they-get-it-right

There must be well over 100 pages of Cyril bashing by now. What you're saying has all been said before. I'm just redressing things a little with my posts.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Most people from neutral teams would take Walker over Riewoldt every day of the week. Same amount of goals, but more shots missed is better than same goals but less behinds. Creating chances is often the hard part, and as has been suggested - it puts pressure on the opposition and creates chances for further scores after the miss.

As I said before, is it? Create chances is the hard part, thats why wasting them by scoring behinds can be seen as a negative.
It only creates pressure if you are able to hold the ball in, which does not happen every time. Repeat entries only happen when one team is really on top and playing well.
What if this player is playing on the team that is behind? You work so hard to create a scoring shot and they miss. Thats doesn't add pressure to the other team, that just loses your team momentum.

 

[Back One Out]

I'm genuinely disappointed at Cyril Rioli's inclusion in this year's All Australian Team. I like him as a player, he is great to watch but come on, he averaged a little over 10 disposals a game and only kicked 30 odd goals. As a small forward he should be doing a lot more to warrant selection.

I don't understand why people single out Rioli for not getting many possessions and always compare him to midfielders who average 25 per game

It's pure idiocy.

Cyril averaged 1 fewer effective disposal per game than Chad Wingard.

Here's the stats for all the top forwards -

Avg disposals
19.7 Shaun Higgins
19.2 Chad Wingard
18.9 Jarryd Roughead
18.9 Tom Lynch (Adel)
18.5 Mark LeCras
16.5 Jack Gunston
15.9 Stewart Crameri
15.0 Cyril Rioli
14.8 Michael Walters
14.7 Lance Franklin
14.7 Tom Lynch (GC)
14.7 Matthew Pavlich
14.5 Luke Breust
14.4 Jamie Elliott
14.3 Jake Stringer
14.2 Taylor Walker
14.1 Angus Monfries
13.8 Jarrad Waite
13.8 Jamie Cripps
13.8 Alex Fasolo
13.7 Chris Mayne
13.6 Eddie Betts
13.6 Robin Nahas
13.3 Drew Petrie
13.2 Josh Kennedy
13.2 Paul Puopolo
13.0 Jack Riewoldt
13.0 Tory Dickson
13.0 Jesse Hogan
12.7 Josh Hill
12.6 Travis Cloke
12.4 Jesse White
12.3 Josh Green
12.1 Kurt Tippett
11.5 Josh Jenkins
11.5 Jack Darling
11.3 Jay Schulz
10.9 Josh Bruce
10.8 Jeff Garlett
10.8 Lindsay Thomas
10.7 Jeremy Cameron
10.5 Ty Vickery
10.4 Joe Daniher
10.3 Tom Hawkins
10.2 Ben Brown
10.2 Charlie Cameron
9.4 Charlie Dixon
9.0 Cam McCarthy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avg Effective Disposals
14.3 Shaun Higgins
13.2 Jarryd Roughead
12.8 Tom Lynch (Adel)
12.6 Mark LeCras
12.3 Jack Gunston
12.1 Chad Wingard
11.0 Cyril Rioli
10.8 Luke Breust
10.7 Chris Mayne
10.6 Stewart Crameri
10.0 Angus Monfries
9.9 Michael Walters
9.9 Alex Fasolo
9.8 Matthew Pavlich
9.7 Paul Puopolo
9.7 Drew Petrie
9.6 Robin Nahas
9.5 Tory Dickson
9.5 Tom Lynch (GC)
9.5 Jamie Elliott
9.3 Jarrad Waite
9.2 Josh Hill
9.1 Jamie Cripps
9.0 Jesse Hogan
8.8 Jack Riewoldt
8.7 Lance Franklin
8.7 Jack Darling
8.6 Taylor Walker
8.5 Kurt Tippett
8.5 Travis Cloke
8.5 Eddie Betts
8.4 Jake Stringer
8.3 Josh Kennedy
8.3 Jesse White
7.9 Jay Schulz
7.5 Josh Jenkins
7.3 Josh Green
7.2 Lindsay Thomas

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avg Contested Possessions
9.2 Jarryd Roughead
8.2 Chad Wingard
7.9 Cyril Rioli
7.4 Tom Lynch (GC)
7.4 Luke Breust
7.4 Kurt Tippett
6.8 Shaun Higgins
6.8 Stewart Crameri
6.8 Michael Walters
6.6 Tom Hawkins
6.5 Eddie Betts
6.5 Charlie Dixon
6.3 Paul Puopolo
6.2 Mark LeCras

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then there are the one-percenters, tap ons, pressure acts, tackles, smothers, intercepts, score involvements and goal assists which are the difference between winning and losing, but none of the Cyril-knockers ever want to credit him for. It's as though football is played in some weird bubble where the only individual stats that matter to people are the number of disposals and goals.

Cyril kicked as many goals as LeCras and Higgins this year. The handful of extra uncontested possessions those guys get from finding space up around the wing, Rioli more than makes up for with unselfish, team-oriented, match-winning work around the stoppages and goal.

Jack Riewoldt didn't have an amazing standout season, but he was given the nod at CHF over Walker, Cameron and Gunston. People praised him for the unheralded selfish work he did for the team. I think it's awesome that the AA selectors pay closer attention to this stuff than they've ever done before and reward the likes of Riewoldt and Rioli, not just the selfish hogs and glory boys

 

[TiggerMan22]

Yes, afl.com.au also think Cyril is overrated: http://www.afl.com.au/video/2015-09-22/the-aa-team-did-they-get-it-right

There must be well over 100 pages of Cyril bashing by now. What you're saying has all been said before. I'm just redressing things a little with my posts.

No you're not. You're just posting pictures of him, all that does it make it look like yo don't believe he deserved it either.
If you want to address the bashing, post reasons or stats or something why these people are incorrect.
Not to mention you are posting in an AA thread. What he did in previous years is irrelevant in this thread, including how many flags he has won.

So why do you think they are wrong. Why do you think he deserved the spot in the team this year over someone like Lecras.

 

[FastLane]

So can we all agree that thinking Cyril is overrated is in itself an overrated experience??

The facts:

* Cyril is a freak player
* Hawks supporters rate him highly
* Non-hawks supporters also rate him highly
* Non-hawks supporters feel Hawks supportes and commentators rate him too highly
* Hawks supporters get upset when this happens.


I have no problem with Cyril being AA-he has not had the greatest year ever-yet let's be honest- if any football supporter did not pick him in their 'best' 22 they no nothing about football.

The biggest problem I have with his selection is that Nic Nat does what Cyril does in a harder position and didnt get in.

 

[Samthegun]

So can we all agree that thinking Cyril is overrated is in itself an overrated experience??

The facts:

* Cyril is a freak player
* Hawks supporters rate him highly
* Non-hawks supporters also rate him highly
* Non-hawks supporters feel Hawks supportes and commentators rate him too highly
* Hawks supporters get upset when this happens.


I have no problem with Cyril being AA-he has not had the greatest year ever-yet let's be honest- if any football supporter did not pick him in their 'best' 22 they no nothing about football.

The biggest problem I have with his selection is that Nic Nat does what Cyril does in a harder position and didnt get in.

Pages and pages and pages and pages and pages of Cyril! What a legend to cause so much discussion!

 

[Back One Out]

No you're not. You're just posting pictures of him, all that does it make it look like yo don't believe he deserved it either.
If you want to address the bashing, post reasons or stats or something why these people are incorrect.
Not to mention you are posting in an AA thread. What he did in previous years is irrelevant in this thread, including how many flags he has won.

So why do you think they are wrong. Why do you think he deserved the spot in the team this year over someone like Lecras.

 

[Bender571]

Statistically Cyril was Hawthorn's best player this year:
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-09-12/the-inquirer-the-best-of-2015

That is based on champion data player ratings which they describe thus:
'The player ratings are determined using a complex formula that considers factors including how and where a player wins
the ball and what he does with it. In summary, it recognises quality play, not just disposal accumulation.'

I don't mind Rioli being selected, but the AFL player ratings are a terrible guide. Guys like Mitchell and Hodge didn't make their All Australian team or even their second All Australian team (up to round 22).

 

[JackOutback]

85% of statistics are incorrect

Pfft, 76% of all people know that.

 

[Sprout]

I don't understand why people single out Rioli for not getting many possessions and always compare him to midfielders who average 25 per game

It's pure idiocy.

Cyril averaged 1 fewer effective disposal per game than Chad Wingard.

Here's the stats for all the top forwards -

Avg disposals
19.7 Shaun Higgins
19.2 Chad Wingard
18.9 Jarryd Roughead
18.9 Tom Lynch (Adel)
18.5 Mark LeCras
16.5 Jack Gunston
15.9 Stewart Crameri
15.0 Cyril Rioli
14.8 Michael Walters
14.7 Lance Franklin
14.7 Tom Lynch (GC)
14.7 Matthew Pavlich
14.5 Luke Breust
14.4 Jamie Elliott
14.3 Jake Stringer
14.2 Taylor Walker
14.1 Angus Monfries
13.8 Jarrad Waite
13.8 Jamie Cripps
13.8 Alex Fasolo
13.7 Chris Mayne
13.6 Eddie Betts
13.6 Robin Nahas
13.3 Drew Petrie
13.2 Josh Kennedy
13.2 Paul Puopolo
13.0 Jack Riewoldt
13.0 Tory Dickson
13.0 Jesse Hogan
12.7 Josh Hill
12.6 Travis Cloke
12.4 Jesse White
12.3 Josh Green
12.1 Kurt Tippett
11.5 Josh Jenkins
11.5 Jack Darling
11.3 Jay Schulz
10.9 Josh Bruce
10.8 Jeff Garlett
10.8 Lindsay Thomas
10.7 Jeremy Cameron
10.5 Ty Vickery
10.4 Joe Daniher
10.3 Tom Hawkins
10.2 Ben Brown
10.2 Charlie Cameron
9.4 Charlie Dixon
9.0 Cam McCarthy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avg Effective Disposals
14.3 Shaun Higgins
13.2 Jarryd Roughead
12.8 Tom Lynch (Adel)
12.6 Mark LeCras
12.3 Jack Gunston
12.1 Chad Wingard
11.0 Cyril Rioli
10.8 Luke Breust
10.7 Chris Mayne
10.6 Stewart Crameri
10.0 Angus Monfries
9.9 Michael Walters
9.9 Alex Fasolo
9.8 Matthew Pavlich
9.7 Paul Puopolo
9.7 Drew Petrie
9.6 Robin Nahas
9.5 Tory Dickson
9.5 Tom Lynch (GC)
9.5 Jamie Elliott
9.3 Jarrad Waite
9.2 Josh Hill
9.1 Jamie Cripps
9.0 Jesse Hogan
8.8 Jack Riewoldt
8.7 Lance Franklin
8.7 Jack Darling
8.6 Taylor Walker
8.5 Kurt Tippett
8.5 Travis Cloke
8.5 Eddie Betts
8.4 Jake Stringer
8.3 Josh Kennedy
8.3 Jesse White
7.9 Jay Schulz
7.5 Josh Jenkins
7.3 Josh Green
7.2 Lindsay Thomas

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avg Contested Possessions
9.2 Jarryd Roughead
8.2 Chad Wingard
7.9 Cyril Rioli
7.4 Tom Lynch (GC)
7.4 Luke Breust
7.4 Kurt Tippett
6.8 Shaun Higgins
6.8 Stewart Crameri
6.8 Michael Walters
6.6 Tom Hawkins
6.5 Eddie Betts
6.5 Charlie Dixon
6.3 Paul Puopolo
6.2 Mark LeCras

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then there are the one-percenters, tap ons, pressure acts, tackles, smothers, intercepts, score involvements and goal assists which are the difference between winning and losing, but none of the Cyril-knockers ever want to credit him for. It's as though football is played in some weird bubble where the only individual stats that matter to people are the number of disposals and goals.

Cyril kicked as many goals as LeCras and Higgins this year. The handful of extra uncontested possessions those guys get from finding space up around the wing, Rioli more than makes up for with unselfish, team-oriented, match-winning work around the stoppages and goal.

Jack Riewoldt didn't have an amazing standout season, but he was given the nod at CHF over Walker, Cameron and Gunston. People praised him for the unheralded selfish work he did for the team. I think it's awesome that the AA selectors pay closer attention to this stuff than they've ever done before and reward the likes of Riewoldt and Rioli, not just the selfish hogs and glory boys

You make a solid case. I don't think his selection is outrageous, but what it boils down to for me is the fact they have chosen THREE small forwards. With Betts and Wingard the clear one two, why fill a spot with a third when the likes of Josh Kennedy can't be squeezed in? When was the last time this actually happened?

It's great that he does the pressure acts and one percenters, but we're talking about the best 22 players in the entire competition. How much weight should these be given for a small forward who kicked a somewhat modest 37 goals? You must admit it's worthy of some scrutiny.

 

[blaisee]

You said AA should be the best 22 players, not the players who've played the best season.

By any measure, Ablett is still one of the best 22 players.

Best to come up with a new definition.

So why is Cyril in the team?

 

[blaisee]

If Goldy goes down who's back up ruckman? Reiwoldt? Kennedy? Then too short down forward...

Nth take that risk every week and win

 

[Kenny_the_Jet]

So can we all agree that thinking Cyril is overrated is in itself an overrated experience??

The facts:

* Cyril is a freak player
* Hawks supporters rate him highly
* Non-hawks supporters also rate him highly
* Non-hawks supporters feel Hawks supportes and commentators rate him too highly
* Hawks supporters get upset when this happens.


I have no problem with Cyril being AA-he has not had the greatest year ever-yet let's be honest- if any football supporter did not pick him in their 'best' 22 they no nothing about football.

The biggest problem I have with his selection is that Nic Nat does what Cyril does in a harder position and didnt get in.

Non Hawks supporters don't rate him highly, they just think he's a good player. Not a once in a generation messiah. Have a read of all the threads to check.

 

[Ian Dunross]

So why is Cyril in the team?

I have no idea.

 

[Royce Hafey]

richmond three all australians, just shows how much they drop off after their 6th or 7th best player.

could have been an argument for a 4th in Dustin Martin.

depth kills them.

Except in 2013 we came fifth with none. IMO our depth is better this year.

Though comparing us to North Melbourne is perhaps useful. They only had one selection but have the wood over us and in the finals, where it counts, performed better. This fits with the general perception that Richmond have better top end talent but that North has better depth. I actually disagree with this, at least with the way depth is usually referred to as being measured by the strength of your bottom 6. A team can be, as I think North are, stronger in B+ and A- players.

There are pitfalls in trying to gauge the strength of a team from AA selections, quite apart from the obvious question of whether the selectors got it right. 2007 Geelong filled about half the AA team; in that case it was probably fair to say that it indicated they were an awesome side, though how much it was a reverse causation is another matter - the selectors being overly influenced in selection by the team's performance. Hawthorn getting none in 1991 seems strange but is possibly explained by a team of aging superstars who snuck into a flag the second before their window shut based on hardened finals experience.

A team could have 18-20 players who were the fourth or fifth best players in the comp in their position and win the flag while another team could have five players who number one in their position and a bunch of hacks everywhere else.

 

[PAFC66]

Cyril dropped some absolute sitters last night that Chad Wingard would of eaten. Cyril was good dont get me wrong but not All Australian this year.