Alternative History - What if Judd had chosen another Victorian club?

[DapperDong]

We could certainly have done with him. Whether it would have meant the club didn't take such a harsh list management approach with our other senior players at the time though, who knows.

 

[Furn2]

Yep^

If a team had to pay what Carlton did Salary and trade wise, its hard to see too many of them being better off, especially the contenders who would have had to give up quality players as they wouldn't have had the low picks to do the deal and would have had their hands tied with the salary down the line too.

 

[dave123]

If he had gone to pies they would have been unbelievably good in the midfield

 

[Fozdog]

Here's a thread for you. Alternate history - what if The Clubs knew as much as Hawks fans during the Judd trade.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Carlton paid over.

If Judd has chosesn another club and pay up as much as Carlton did for Judd they may well be no better off.

Melbourne was the one he could have gone to according to rumours at the time and he might have actually made a difference there given they were at rock bottom. But on the other hand Carlton didnt really improve with Judd there so no reason to think he'd have improved Melbourne either.

 

[Seeds]

There was a comment on our board recently that the hawks would have needed to offer the eagles pick 12 (which we used on rioli) + a player to get Judd, and it got me thinking about what effect that would have had on our club and the rest of the league.

At the time (end of the 2007 season), the Chris Judd trade from West Coast to Carlton was seen as one of the most historically significant trades of all time. People love to bag him, but the guy was a monster at West Coast and a bulldozer at Carlton.

For those who need the reminder, the trade was:

Carlton received: Chris Judd, pick 46 (Dennis Armfield)
West Coast received: Josh Kennedy, pick 3 (Chris Masten) , Pick 20 (Tony Notte)

You can all go and look at how well the trade needed up for both Carlton and West Coast, but thought it would be interesting to talk about what would have happened if Judd had picked another club. What would the trade have been? How would it have worked out for the two clubs?

At the time it was reported that Judd was talking to Essendon, Melbourne, Collingwood and Carlton.

So - what do you reckon would have happened?

Would Collingwood have won more flags if he went there? Would they have had to give up a Dane Swan or Travis Cloke to get it done? Would Melbourne have avoided the repeat disappointments? Would Essendon have been a force to be reckoned with? (Would it have helped or hindered the development of Jobe?)

If the Judd trade didn't go through I reckon the blues would of been serious premiership contenders around 2014-16. Fevola full forward, Kennedy centre half forward, Waite and Jameson in defence. Thats a bloody good spine. They would have a another couple of gun mids around the age of 23-25 during that era given they would of kept pick 3 and had another high pick the following year cos without Judd they still would of finished very low for atleast one more year rather then closer to the middle. They would have Betts in his prime as the foward pocket and probably would get a lot more out of Yarran and Garlett if they were playing well leading into the 2014-16 era.

Boy Hawthorn were lucky that the Blues got Judd.

 

[eth-dog]

If Carton gave up 3, 20 and Kennedy then we probably could have got him for 6 (Myers), 23 (Pears) and Ryder.

We'd have been better but I doubt we'd have done more than Carlton did with him - which really, was nothing. I think a 5th place finish was the best he did there.

Pretty sure that they were after Gumby instead of Ryder.

 

[TheFourPillars]

If the Judd trade didn't go through I reckon the blues would of been serious premiership contenders around 2014-16. Fevola full forward, Kennedy centre half forward, Waite and Jameson in defence. Thats a bloody good spine. They would have a another couple of gun mids around the age of 23-25 during that era given they would of kept pick 3 and had another high pick the following year cos without Judd they still would of finished very low for atleast one more year rather then closer to the middle. They would have Betts in his prime as the foward pocket and probably would get a lot more out of Yarran and Garlett if they were playing well leading into the 2014-16 era.

Boy Hawthorn were lucky that the Blues got Judd.

HAHAHA

 

[eth-dog]

Pretty sure that they were after Gumby instead of Ryder.

Anyway, we probably do a trade somewhat akin to what Carlton did.

Pick 6, 23 and Gumbleton for Judd and 46

Draft:

1. Kreuzer
2. Cotchin
3. Morton (Carlton were interested IIRC)
4. Palmer
5. Grant
6. Masten (so they get their man anyway)
7. Myers
8-19 same
20. Pears (Carlton needed a KPD IIRC)
21. Maric
22. Selwood
23. Notte
---
46. Hooker
---
54. Tom Bellchambers

We probably go better but this is purely speculation.

 

[HolyRioli]

Dont recall and wiĺl do some research when I have time, am curious now. Never doubted Judd's class or value and the comparison is between 2 rare talents.

The Hawks recruiting manager at the time, John Turnbull, did lose his job around 2003 or 2004 from memory, and Judd's performance and Hodge's struggles to get going early were related, though not the sole reason.

2005 was the year that Hodge started to get going.

Hindsight certainly vindicates Turnbull's selection.

 

[darthbards]

Judd would be happy now financially but football wise it turned out a reasonably poor decision. Carlton in hindsight payed way overs and with Judd achieved very little,while Judd never had the same team successes of Hodge or Ball.
I find it slightly sad a player of Judds talent had to play for a club like the AFLversion of Carlton but he did chase the coin so so be it.

 

[OneEyedHawk]

Dual Brownlow Medalist, Dual AFLPA MVP, Premiership captain and Norm Smith medalist. There is no accolade Hodge has nabbed that Judd hasn't.

Dual Norm?

 

[Ian Dunross]

Here's a thread for you. Alternate history - what if The Clubs knew as much as Hawks fans during the Judd trade.

Is this referring to something off field?

 

[eth-dog]

Dual Norm?

Please direct me to Hodge's Brownlow, would you please?

 

[HTT]

From memory, Richmond had offered up picks 2 and 18 and a player, which was widely seen to be the better deal at the time as the Eagles were chasing Cotchin. Eagles ended up doing well to snag Kennedy instead though. Plus Judd wasn't going to reverse Richmond's fortunes singlehandedly.

Reckon he would have helped out Collingwood and Hawks a fair bit, but Judd was trying to do the right thing by WCE and I don't remember them offering up a deal that was in the ballpark.

Overall though I think Dangerfield and Buddy have shown that, in a team game like AFL, single star player movements are unlikely to be in and of themselves the tipping point of success for a team.

Thank god we didn't do that, we used those on Cotchin and Rance from memory

 

[eth-dog]

It should be somewhere behind those 4 premiership cups...oh he doesn't have one oh well.

Keep telling yourself that Hodge is better than Judd. The rest of the non-Hawthorn fans will sit in reality where Judd is comfortably better (and it's not as if Judd hasn't achieved premiership success).

 

[Monkey King]

Dual Norm?

The Norm Smith medal is the accolade. Hodge received that accolade twice; Judd received it once.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Would have liked to see Judd go to a side with a decent forward line. Fev kicked 99 goals and then a Coleman In their only two seasons together.

 

[DrEvil_]

Essendon would've been a stronger team with him. They would've gone deeper into the finals in 2009 and possibly made them in 2010, which means Knights wouldn't have been sacked. Which means Hird never would've brought Dank to the Bombers. Which means Jobe wouldn't have takes PED's. Which means he doesn't develop into a Brownlow winner.

He's not a Brownlow winner.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Anyway, we probably do a trade somewhat akin to what Carlton did.

Pick 6, 23 and Gumbleton for Judd and 46

Draft:

1. Kreuzer
2. Cotchin
3. Morton (Carlton were interested IIRC)
4. Palmer
5. Grant
6. Masten (so they get their man anyway)
7. Myers
8-19 same
20. Pears (Carlton needed a KPD IIRC)
21. Maric
22. Selwood
23. Notte
---
46. Hooker
---
54. Tom Bellchambers

We probably go better but this is purely speculation.

I recall at the time that WCE were really pushing for pick 1; so i doubt that pick 6 would have been close enough. Although I don't remember how well regarded Gumbleton was at the time (was he rated more that Kennedy?)

 

[Crankyhawk]

Is this referring to something off field?

I think its referring to one of our posters in this thread.

 

[eth-dog]

I recall at the time that WCE were really pushing for pick 1; so i doubt that pick 6 would have been close enough. Although I don't remember how well regarded Gumbleton was at the time (was he rated more that Kennedy?)

He was the #2 pick of the previous draft and didn't really have the injury concerns so he was about the same or maybe a bit less at the time. In the end though, it doesn't matter that much. As good as Judd is, I'm happy where we're at and I'm not sure if we'd have gotten here with him here.

 

[OneEyedHawk]

Please direct me to Hodge's Brownlow, would you please?

Weird comment. The post I was replying to stated "there's no accolade Hodge has achieved that Judd hasn't".

Oh for the days when your club was relevant, in discussions like these or otherwise.

BTW, Hodge's Brownlow is in the same space as Leigh Matthews, Carey, Ablett Snr & so many other all-time greats.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[JohnW]

Weird comment. The post I was replying to stated "there's no accolade Hodge has achieved that Judd hasn't".

Oh for the days when your club was relevant, in discussions like these or otherwise.

BTW, Hodge's Brownlow is in the same space as Leigh Matthews, Carey, Ablett Snr & so many other all-time greats.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

You serious? If your honest answer to what has Hodge achieved that Judd hasn't is dual norm smiths you may as well start counting individual statistics.

The accolade is a norm smith. Which Judd has in resume.

 

[Monkey King]

If the Judd trade didn't go through I reckon the blues would of been serious premiership contenders around 2014-16. Fevola full forward, Kennedy centre half forward, Waite and Jameson in defence. Thats a bloody good spine. They would have a another couple of gun mids around the age of 23-25 during that era given they would of kept pick 3 and had another high pick the following year cos without Judd they still would of finished very low for atleast one more year rather then closer to the middle. They would have Betts in his prime as the foward pocket and probably would get a lot more out of Yarran and Garlett if they were playing well leading into the 2014-16 era.

Boy Hawthorn were lucky that the Blues got Judd.

Don't forget Jezza woulda come out of retirement and played like in his prime too

Back in reality though. Fev would still be done by now. Waite his inconsistent and oft injured self. Jamison's shoulders just as bung as they were the last couple of years. Betts would've still gone to the Crows. And Yaz sadly had his meltdown. The word had Hughes picking Morton with Pick 3 too, so yelp!

Not getting Judd would've just meant Blues fans wouldn't have seen finals for 15 years running.