Skunk 07
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apologies to Perkins, I got my fat albert centres mixed up
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Andrew Bogut 2009/10 thread
- Thread starter moistie
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Kendrick humbly accepts your apology but insists he will kill you if you mix him up with "Big Baby" again.
Understandable too, nobody wants to be Glen "Big Baby" Davis not even Big Baby himself.
Look2Me4Guidance
Destination Club Supporter
His rep is from years ago though. What have you done for me lately?
Is Amar'e even the leader at Phoenix? I'd say Nash and Benjamin Button are the leaders.
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His "rep" was earnt on the back of his play 3-5 years ago, when he was one of the most ridiculous offensive big men ever to play the game. He has been nowhere near that level for a couple of years.
As for leadership, come on. This is guy that's had to be coddled by Nash and the coaches through-out his career, and still needs to be reminded to play D on a daily basis.
There's a good reason for the Suns not being able to get more than Hickson and a late 1st for him.
Look2Me4Guidance
Destination Club Supporter
Injuries have cruelled him no doubt, but he is still most of the best microfracture success stories in sport.
He's been elevated to a leadership role this year. This is a player who has had his name mentioned near the trade deadline for 3 consecutive seasons and has been nothing but a professional during this time. That is impressive.
His defence was never his calling card in the first place but he still a very tough guard. For a majority of the time he has been the only big man in the rotation which makes things quite difficult.
I am very impressed with Bogut, but to say he is a better leader than Amare is quite simply a throwaway statement with no substance.
I only manage to watch the odd game on OneHD and watched The Celtics V Bucks last night.
I was annoyed at some comments Bogut made about Luc Longley when he first signed up in the NBA and I figured he would have to be really good to back it up.
From what I saw last night, he is walking the walk, not just talking the talk. He was the difference between the 2 sides last night. Great performance.
I was annoyed at some comments Bogut made about Luc Longley when he first signed up in the NBA and I figured he would have to be really good to back it up.
From what I saw last night, he is walking the walk, not just talking the talk. He was the difference between the 2 sides last night. Great performance.
Look, Bogut is having a stellar year, probably better than Stoudemire's. But to this date, Stoudemire has been a better player, and will probably continue to be so. Maybe in a few years we'd say Bogut, but not yet.
Stodemire definately benefits from the Nash factor. You only have to look at Marion's stats now to see how Nash helps. But still, he is an amazing player. When he gets going he is probably up there with LBJ and Melo as far as an unstoppable force goes.
At the same time, Bogut is stuck with a pretty weak team, and has played great. But he will never be the absolutely dominant force Stoudemire can be. he wont score 40 and grab 20. He'll drop 25 and get 20 boards and 5 blocks, which for some teams can be better than a 40-20. But Stoudemire is just a better player.
Stoudemire could be the best player on an NBA Champion, Bogut couldn't. He could be the foundation stone for a championship team, but not it's best player.
The big mark against Stoudemire is his defense, and if he can get it to respectable levels then the debate will be over.
Stodemire definately benefits from the Nash factor. You only have to look at Marion's stats now to see how Nash helps. But still, he is an amazing player. When he gets going he is probably up there with LBJ and Melo as far as an unstoppable force goes.
At the same time, Bogut is stuck with a pretty weak team, and has played great. But he will never be the absolutely dominant force Stoudemire can be. he wont score 40 and grab 20. He'll drop 25 and get 20 boards and 5 blocks, which for some teams can be better than a 40-20. But Stoudemire is just a better player.
Stoudemire could be the best player on an NBA Champion, Bogut couldn't. He could be the foundation stone for a championship team, but not it's best player.
The big mark against Stoudemire is his defense, and if he can get it to respectable levels then the debate will be over.
No we can quite easily say that Bogut>Amare.
He's not an offensive force like Amare I agree but he's a consistent defensive force who is capable of being an offensive weapon if given the chance, the problem is he's not alway used on offense.
Amare is an offensive force (and not the force he used to be) but he's next to useless defensively.
Look2Me4Guidance
Destination Club Supporter
No you can't, unless you add in over the last 3-5 games, etc.
I'm confused as to why Amare is being compared though given he's a 4 and Bogut is a 5.
Sure he can...Magic Johnson was.
He just needs to be surrounded with players who play better defence. He doesn't get that at the suns.
I'm not trying to say that Stoudemire isn't a garbage defender, just that he is a better basketballer than Bogut.
I really really hope that Bogut overtakes him, but Bogut has put together about a good month of ball and that's his whole resume to say he's better than Stoudemire, Who has had some fantastic games in the past month anyway
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- #213
2 months actually.
But that's exactly what we're discussing. No-one will argue that Bogut over his career is better than Stoudemire. But Bogut's form over the last 2 months is a cut or two above Stoudemire's form over the last 2 years.
fwiw, if Stoudemire is your best player, you're winning 30-35 games. As the Knicks will find out next year.
peternorth
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- #214
i would comfortably have bogut in my top 6-7
All posts suggesting people are saying Bogut is overall a better player, not based on the past couple of months.
Look, Amare's distaste for playing D pisses me off more than anyone, and I really hope that Bogut overtakes him, I do.
But Amare has done more, and will probably do more in his career. If Bogut can land himself on a team with a player like LeBron, Kobe, Melo, Wade, Durant, Rose, anyone like that, a real superstar, then he will be a great player. But for me he's just one of those guys that cant be your best option.
Amare is the second best player on a team that has not won a championship, so I'd be fascinated to see how he'd fare as #1. I maintain that Bogut is better right now, but I do understand that people would like more runs on the board before it becomes 'official'.
Anyway, we can say that AB is the number two centre in the league, and that is massive considering where he was in the last couple of seasons. He is playing now like he did for the Utes in 2005, against much better competition. Mentality is much better with Skiles on board.
Anyway, we can say that AB is the number two centre in the league, and that is massive considering where he was in the last couple of seasons. He is playing now like he did for the Utes in 2005, against much better competition. Mentality is much better with Skiles on board.
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Who is arguing that Bogut has done more than Amare in his career?
Right now however, if you gave GMs a choice between Stoudemire and Bogut, 30 would take the Aussie. He's the second best defensive centre in the league behind Dwight, and can go off for 25 on any given night. His post game is excellent now, particularly his ability to finish with either hand. He just needs to develop a consistent 15-17 footer.
Again, no one is arguing Bogut has done more, but there's absolutely no doubt he's the better, more versatile and more valuable playert now.
Right now however, if you gave GMs a choice between Stoudemire and Bogut, 30 would take the Aussie. He's the second best defensive centre in the league behind Dwight, and can go off for 25 on any given night. His post game is excellent now, particularly his ability to finish with either hand. He just needs to develop a consistent 15-17 footer.
Again, no one is arguing Bogut has done more, but there's absolutely no doubt he's the better, more versatile and more valuable playert now.
Up for trade for 3 years running and has gotten no takers. Do you not think you are over rating his ability a tiny bit? He can't be the number 1 guy and I cannot believe that you attempted to compare him to Magic.
peternorth
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defensively bogut is behind dwight (1) and jamison (2)
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Scott Thompson, too.
The only thing I can agree with you on your post is that Bogut is currently not capable of putting up a 40/20 game. Neither is Amare.
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Scarecrow, the words you have used more than any others in your arguments are 'when', 'if', 'could', 'was' and 'has'.
I think this idea of being an "offensive juggernaut" does not take into account the full picture. Amare is terrible offensively and gets lit up quite a bit. He can still score 30 quite easily but what is being scored on him and is he setting up anyone when the defense starts to collapse on him? How much of his offense is down to Nash and so on and how many of the intangibles does Amare bring. How much better are Phoenix with him on the court.
Looking at Amare on the 82games site (not updated since 5/3).
His PER is 23.2 and opposition is 18.0.
On the court Phoenix are +3.8 and when he is off the court they are +2.1.
Looking at Bogut
PER of 22.8 and opposition is 13.6.
On the court the Bucks are +4.0 and when he is off the court they are -3.1.
Watching the Boston game the other day and the presence Bogut had about him was quite suprising. Perkins is a very good low post defender and Bogut made him look second rate. Boston were driving and dishing off for jump shots as Bogut was blocking and contesting everything and it seemed to really have a huge effect and intimidate them.
Has to find a reliable 15 foot jump shot in the off season. Found his stroke back on the free throw line so its a chance of happening.
Your right, because the argument for Bogut is based purely on 1-2 months of basketball. So you have to talk about the past, present or future without resorting to comparing a solid 2 months of ball and declaring one player better.
I hope Bogut goes on to be better than Stoudemire, I really do, but I only see him doing that if he lands on a team with a superstar player or 2 lower level all stars. I really don't think he can carry a team to a championship himself. Ill love to be proved wrong if it happens though
