Anthony Albanese - How long? -3-

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

Renewables are cheaper and more reliable… decentralising the grid will always be more reliable… and nuclear isn’t always safe.
Exciting times.

you have a very 'different' definition of reliable.

 

[Rob R]

What's Albo's argument going to be?

Renewables are cheaper?
More reliable?
Nuclear technology is unsafe?

Labor has zero credibility on these points.

First and third look pretty compelling and Dutton has no credibility

On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

That is simply untrue.

We are talking about the increase in property values. Increases due largely to increased demands for a scarce public resource - land - from an increasing population needing homes, roads, schools, places of employment etc. And a lack of supply of land to meet that demand -hence the price increases for what is available.

Is an inheritance tax on the value of the assets or the growth in the value of the assets,

If I buy a property for $1.5 million and die the next day, is my inheritance tax zero as the property didn't gain value?

 

[Festerz]

Is an inheritance tax on the value of the assets or the growth in the value of the assets,

If I buy a property for $1.5 million and die the next day, is my inheritance tax zero as the property didn't gain value?

We have not had a an inheritance tax since the years of the Fraser Government so off the top of my head I don't know how it applied then - and that was an era of very modest (and sometimes falls) in annual residential property prices.

But obviously it would be possible to set an inheritance/transfer tax on some percentage of the real increase in value above a certain number as was proposed in the Henry Tax review and this paper from 2018:

https://aibe.uq.edu.au/files/1922/AIBE_Inheritance_Tax_Paper.pdf

Also important to understand that every state government originally had some form of death duty/inheritance tax. Their abolition was not due to any coherent discussion or debate as to their relative merits or what would replace them but because Joh Bjelke Peterson as premier of Queensland abolished them in his state in 1978 as a policy to attract older retirees from other states to Queensland to build his population and revenue base to fund the state's construction build. Every other state government soon followed suit to remain competitive and the Federal Government of Malcolm Fraser followed suit soon after.

Every leader since has been to politically timid to address the issue with informed, cogent debate about the consequences since. That's the point.

 

[evolved2]

That is simply demonstrably untrue in fact. These gains in wealth (70% increase in property values in a large number of suburban suburbs in the 2 years since May 2022) have not been taxed in any meaningful sense.

We are talking about the increase in property values. Increases due largely to increased demands for a scarce public resource - land - from an increasing population needing homes, roads, schools, places of employment etc. And a lack of supply of land to meet that demand -hence the price increases for what is available.

That increase in value is now happening at a much heightened rate than it has previously in Australia. And that increase in value has not been taxed - it is an unearned increase in wealth from speculative pressures. And that speculative increase in wealth is captured by property owners.

An inheritance tax not only redistributed that increase in wealth to the public, it acts as a brake on speculative forces. A fundamental fact that has been learned from centuries of population growth in other parts of the world.

Your thinking is just driving a divide between those who have access to unearned property speculation wealth and those who don't. And it is a divide that will only grow with time.

I urge you to take a read of the Alan Kohler essay I linked earlier to understand the fundamental flaws in your logic.

As Kohler says it's destructive thinking because of the inequality that results: with so much private wealth now concentrated in the home, it stays with those who already own a house and within their families. For someone with little or no family housing equity behind them, it’s virtually impossible to break out of the cycle and build new wealth.

And his conclusions about the need for drastic change in public policy also ring true for anyone with an understanding of history:

'it will be impossible to return the price of housing to something less destructive – preferably to what it was when my parents and I bought our first houses – without purging the idea that housing is a means to create wealth as opposed to simply a place to live.'

I don't see why personal property capital value increases should be taxed and your rationale doesn't move me.

Property value increase only leads to higher secondary property property purchase cost. There's no reason for government to take a cut, especially since the tax ignores inflation.

Sorry, but the property I own isn't unearned. I'll see you at the ballot box for that battle.

 

[Festerz]

Sorry, but the property I own isn't unearned.

That's not even close to what I said, or more importantly what the reports I quoted are saying on the matter, of course.

 

[evolved2]

That's not even close to what I said, or more importantly what the reports I quoted are saying on the matter, of course.

The increase in property value isn't unearned. Better?

Either way, come and get it. The ballot box is a different ballgame to the SRP. We'll shoot you down.

 

[Gavin Excell]

I understand the rationale of the populist arguments against the re-introduction of a wealth/inheritence tax in Australia from emotive and political perspectives. But especially from the temporal bias of the manner in which the relatively recent rapid escalation of residential property values have skewed popular thinking on the right to affordable home ownership as opposed to wealth creation.

But a cross generational and overall tax mix perspective as well as a need to look after the housing needs of future generations and not just those currently in or about to enter the private residential property market the arguments against re-instating a wealth/inheritance tax are wafer thin on both equity and economic grounds. That's not just my personal view but the views of leading economists and social welfare experts over recent years and going back decades.

The 2009 Henry Tax Review, commissioned by the Rudd Labor Government, argued that an inheritance tax is an essential component of any equitable and efficient taxation system and would fit well with Australia's changing demographic profile into the coming decades. It made the point that the mean wealth by age has been rapidly shifting towards older households. And that the main factor in the growing wealth of older Australians has been due to the effects of ownership of property and inflation of property prices.

That observation has now turned into an inter-generational wealth crisis that will only get worse if nothing radical is done to correct it. A crisis highlighted in the paper I've referenced previously by Alan Kohler:

The Great Divide: Australia's Housing Mess and How to Fix It

What caused Australia's housing crisis – and how we might fix it

www.quarterlyessay.com.au

The argument that focusing on tax reform (emotionally put as a 'tax grab' by some) is lazy policy making is based on a fundamental lack of understanding of the relatively limited array of policy tools open to respective layers of government under the Australian Constitution to effect cross generational equity in terms of acceptable living conditions for all of its citizens. A wealth/inheritance tax, levied at the state level, was once well understood and accepted in Australia as being a critical component of the way in which the newly established Australian Government and its component states and territories could work together to avoid the class system failures of the United Kingdom.

As Kohler has pointed out, successive State and Commonwealth (mostly) conservative governments, starting from the Menzies 1960s administration, have implemented policies to overturn those equity principles through one sided changes in taxation policy. Inheritance Tax, commonly referred to as “death duties”, has not applied in Australia since 1981. And we've now reached the point where the transformation of the residential property market focused on affordable home ownership for all Australians could aspire to into a giant Ponzi Scheme seems to be just blithely accepted.

I don't have any confidence any political party has the courage to stare down the vested interests and take forward genuine tax reform

 

[Gavin Excell]

No peta. You and abbott were the worst govt in living memory

All 23 months of it

 

[evolved2]

I don't have any confidence any political party has the courage to stare down the vested interests and take forward genuine tax reform

They'll need to win the popular vote too, which is a struggle for most SRP takes.

 

[Festerz]

Either way, come and get it. The ballot box is a different ballgame to the SRP. We'll shoot you down.

How Bizarre.

I don't have any confidence any political party has the courage to stare down the vested interests and take forward genuine tax reform

History shows that to be spot on.

But that doesn't stop us from discussing it on social media using principles and facts rather than self interested falsehoods on social media.

But it seems even that frightens some people. The same people who no doubt attack politicians for not showing courage 'to act' in what they think are their best interests.

 

[evolved2]

How Bizarre.

History shows that to be spot on.

But that doesn't stop us from talking about it and using facts rather than self interested falsehoods on social media. But it seems even that frightens people.

Nobody is frightened by unpopular and irrelevant opinions shared and loved by likeminded LW people on social media. We'll shoot you down at the ballot box, which is all that matters.

The far left is irrelevant, weak, and pathetic. See what they did during covid.

 

[Gavin Excell]

The boomer generation is like that digested rat passing through the stomach of a python
It's now at the tail end. I suspect there will be no housing investment taxation advantages introduced until that generation has passed

 

[Gavin Excell]

Nobody is frightened by unpopular and irrelevant opinions shared and loved by likeminded LW people on social media. We'll shoot you down at the ballot box, which is all that matters.

The far left is irrelevant, weak, and pathetic. See what they did during covid.

We?

 

[Gralin]

The boomer generation is like that digested rat passing through the stomach of a python
It's now at the tail end. I suspect there will be no housing investment taxation advantages introduced until that generation has passed

As long as politicians can have investment properties and take donations from people with vested interests it's not going away

 

[1990crow]

Nobody is frightened by unpopular and irrelevant opinions shared and loved by likeminded LW people on social media. We'll shoot you down at the ballot box, which is all that matters.

The far left is irrelevant, weak, and pathetic. See what they did during covid.

Scomos Liberal Party was far left?

 

[evolved2]

We?

Progressives are on the nose even with youth. I view them similarly as One Nation - extremists.

 

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

Scomos Liberal Party was far left?

Nice try

 

[evolved2]

Scomos Liberal Party was far left?

No. He's not alone, yet the SRP will struggle to see how hated their politics are.

 

[MPMonkeys]

Albanese and Labor are going to get hammered at the next election. The baseball bats are out and they are ready.

It would be completely idiotic of Labor to put nuclear on the table as an election debate. That would mean having Bowen front the media and he has zero credibility when it comes to numbers. Every time he opens his mouth, he is going to get reminded about power being $275 cheaper. And people know from their bills that the complete opposite has happened.

Now the left can cry about the media but Bowen was an absolute arse clown to make this promise and it’s going to be an albatross around Labor’s neck for the next 6 months.

 

[1990crow]

Progressives are on the nose even with youth. I view them similarly as One Nation - extremists.

Well, you can't help people like you with such a low IQ.

 

[1990crow]

Albanese and Labor are going to get hammered at the next election. The baseball bats are out and they are ready.

It would be completely idiotic of Labor to put nuclear on the table as an election debate. That would mean having Bowen front the media and he has zero credibility when it comes to numbers. Every time he opens his mouth, he is going to get reminded about power being $275 cheaper. And people know from their bills that the complete opposite has happened.

Now the left can cry about the media but Bowen was an absolute arse clown to make this promise and it’s going to be an albatross around Labor’s neck for the next 6 months.

You're forgetting LNP lied about the energy price change at the last election and misleading Labor and the public.
But I'm sure you intentionally forgot that bit

 

[1990crow]

Nice try

He's the idiot that said it.

 

[evolved2]

Well, you can't help people like you with such a low IQ.

Typical progressive insult. Meh.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Albanese and Labor are going to get hammered at the next election. The baseball bats are out and they are ready.

It would be completely idiotic of Labor to put nuclear on the table as an election debate. That would mean having Bowen front the media and he has zero credibility when it comes to numbers. Every time he opens his mouth, he is going to get reminded about power being $275 cheaper. And people know from their bills that the complete opposite has happened.

Now the left can cry about the media but Bowen was an absolute arse clown to make this promise and it’s going to be an albatross around Labor’s neck for the next 6 months.

I agree like a lot of incumbent governments around the world in inflationary times Labor is up against it
Nuclear though is a disaster
Spend a thousand billion to realise questionable savings in 2049
I mean really

I think Dutton has opened up an obvious attack line now that could scupper his chances. They surely would have been better off saying zip on their energy policy rather than the dud that even their salesman at Murdoch are struggling to prosecute.